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Thread: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Exclamation SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Starting in November Paypal is changing their policies so that buyers will have 180 days to file a claim of "Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)" and get a full refund plus shipping costs and you won't get your fees refunded.

    I guess many of us will have to choose another payment service if this policy is abused by some buyers. I don't think this applies to Paypal "gift" payments.

    ---------------

    Amendments to the PayPal User Agreement
    Effective Date: November 18, 2014

    We encourage you to carefully review this Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that are being made to the PayPal User Agreement. These updates will be posted at least 30 days prior to their effective date. These changes will not apply retroactively and will become effective November 18, 2014. If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms.

    Dispute Filing Window
    We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.

    10.1(b)
    PayPal’s Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country. If you as a seller, sell an item to a buyer from another country, you will be subject to the Buyer and Seller Protection policies applicable to your buyer’s country and required to reimburse PayPal for any payment or refund to your buyer made pursuant to that other country’s policy. We are revising section 11.1 to reflect this.

    Liability for Claims under PayPal Purchase Protection. If you are a Seller and PayPal makes a final decision that you lose a Claim filed directly with PayPal, you will be required to reimburse PayPal for your liability. Where you receive payment from a PayPal Account holder in another country and we determine under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy of that country that the funds received should be returned or reversed, you will be subject to that country’s PayPal Buyer Protection Policy and required to reimburse PayPal for your liability (before receiving payment from a PayPal Account holder in another country, you should review the relevant PayPal Buyer Protection Policies accessible via the “Legal” or “Legal Agreements” footer on most PayPal site pages).Your liability will include the full purchase price of the item plus the original shipping cost (and in some cases you may not receive the item back). You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees. PayPal Seller protection may cover your liability—see Section 11 (Protection for Sellers) below.

    If a buyer files a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim for an item they purchased from you, you will generally be required to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees. Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability.
    Brad Husick
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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Thanks a lot for pointing it out. 180 days!

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Thank you as well.
    I have not read it all, but have read enough.
    Spells the death-knell for PayPal for me.
    Gary

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Thanks for the update.

    PayPal has now gone from being ridiculous to unuseable for sale of used photo gear IMO.

    45 days to figure out something was not as described was beyond comprehension, making this extension even more inane. Frankly, it sounds like an unspoken warranty on anything one sells with the item out of the sellers posession or purview.

    No thanks.

    All the more reason to sell amongst friends on GetDpi and working out your own payment terms like wire transfers and the like.

    - Marc

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    This sums up the whole problem with PayPal: It's not really a payment system, it's an integrated part of an auction system that has a mountain of challenges that can't really all be solved in a satisfying manner. Unfortunately, most (all?) made-for-the-internet payment systems suck in one way or another. The best thing would probably be if all countries could adopt the IBAN (International Bank Account Number) system. That would make international transfers faster and cheaper all over the world.

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    All done, I have already been abused by a PayPal customer who damaged a lens I sold to him and insisted on returning the item forcing me to sell the item at a discount and forcing me to eat the shipping back and forth.

    I tell you it left a bad taste in my mouth.

    Game over!
    Ciao,
    Giorgio Niro
    www.giorgioniro.com

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    That new policy must be bad for their selling business.
    Also, I think I read somewhere that ebay and Paypal will go their seperate and independent ways and wonder what's the connection to the new policy?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    I'm not 100% certain but I believe the separarion/spinoff of Paypal and ebay is simply to have them operate as separate entities but still wholly owned by the same parent company. I wonder how businesses that accept Paypal as a form of payment etc. such as B&H are subject to these new rules? Will anyone be able to return any item within that 180 day window?

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd October 2014 at 07:13.

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    eBay has agreed to spin off Paypal: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/...ype=blogs&_r=0

    I imagine that these kinds of rules are based on eBay's conclusion that fraudulent sales are a bigger problem than dishonest buyers. (After buying counterfeit Sandisk cards on eBay, I read that more than 90 percent of the memory cards sold on eBay at the time were fake.)

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    This reminds me of an incident I had last year.

    I sold a lens to a new guy, got paid by PayPal.
    Something like 75 or 80 after the lens was delivered, this guy claimed the lens doesn't focus infinity. If this had happened after Nov 18, 2014, I will have to refund the full price plus PayPal fee plus shipping, whew!

    Glad it was over 45 days. Folks, it sounds really crazy, but stuff like this is really happening. That said, I don't know what other type of payment method I can use without worrying about getting ripped off, buying or selling.

    I did send PayPal GIFT(I know it's not really GIFT) payment to quite a few members here, not feeling worried at all, but won't do the same to those new members without much of history here.

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    In all the on-line buying and selling I've done ... hundreds of transactions over the past 15 years at least ... I've only had one kerfuffle with PayPal on their policies, one with EBay on their policies, had one buyer complain (to me, not to PP or EB), and had to post two complaints about unresponsive sellers. I have certainly had to return items that were not represented properly, which is always a stressful situation, and wait for reimbursement, which is doubly so, but it's always worked out fine without need to draw upon the policies for assistance (modulo the exceptions listed above). Based on this, my experience with PayPal has been overwhelmingly positive and mostly transparent.

    I say that because it's important to keep a sense of perspective. Obviously, abuses and serious problems do arise or there wouldn't be the need for all these safeguards and policies.

    I'm not sure what to think of this latest policy change regards how it might affect me. Certainly anything I'm likely to buy I'll know whether it meets the description within a day or three, and I always buy from responsible sellers with a good track history and clearly stated return policy. 180 days seems way over the top for buyer protection, for me. What sorts of items need six months to determine that they met the description anyway?

    As a seller, I protect myself by carefully documenting everything I put up for sale as well as writing clear and simple descriptions, defining a clear and simple return policy, and always under-selling/over-delivering at a fair market value. That's always been the ticket to high customer satisfaction and minimal problems if an issue arises. For most sales of significant magnitude, I state directly that shipment will follow the deposit and posting of the payment to my bank account—so if they want to play games, I'm holding the money while they're holding the goods.

    I don't know whether the lengthy buyer protection window will motivate the unscrupulous to try to take more advantage, but I don't know that it will be too much of a problem given responsible selling.

    As always, do your best and protect yourself as best possible within the rules. If it turns out that you can no longer trust PP services do to these policies, let them know directly and use something else.
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    This will result in tons of abuse. What are our other payment options?

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    This will result in tons of abuse. What are our other payment options?
    Just do a search on "online payment providers," "payment service," and similar terms. Amazon.com is a big one, relatively well known.

    As a side note, I realized today one type of product that might require 180 days of buyer protection. I just received the complete set of "Battlestar Galactica" DVDs. I won't know whether some of them are bad for months, at least, because that's how long it takes me to actually watch a lengthy series like that. If products like that are the majority of sales (and I'm pretty sure they are far more of those kinds of sales than products like cameras), then perhaps there is some justification for extending the buyer protection portion of the policies.

    But I'd rather see a tiered support system based on the types of products rather than a 'one size fits all' policy that leaves a lot of opportunity for abuse on the table.

    G

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Just do a search on "online payment providers," "payment service," and similar terms. Amazon.com is a big one, relatively well known.

    As a side note, I realized today one type of product that might require 180 days of buyer protection. I just received the complete set of "Battlestar Galactica" DVDs. I won't know whether some of them are bad for months, at least, because that's how long it takes me to actually watch a lengthy series like that. If products like that are the majority of sales (and I'm pretty sure they are far more of those kinds of sales than products like cameras), then perhaps there is some justification for extending the buyer protection portion of the policies.

    But I'd rather see a tiered support system based on the types of products rather than a 'one size fits all' policy that leaves a lot of opportunity for abuse on the table.

    G
    It is my understanding Amazon handles payments only for items sold through them. Or I am wrong?

    Do you have experience with any of alternative payment systems? If yes which one would get your recommendation?

    P.S. Unfortunately I know what you mean with set of DVDs. Happened to me with set of brand new ones purchased from retailer. They all passed visual inspection. But when some of them played it was a different story.

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    Re: SELLERS - IMPORTANT PAYPAL CHANGES!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    It is my understanding Amazon handles payments only for items sold through them. Or I am wrong?

    Do you have experience with any of alternative payment systems? If yes which one would get your recommendation?

    P.S. Unfortunately I know what you mean with set of DVDs. Happened to me with set of brand new ones purchased from retailer. They all passed visual inspection. But when some of them played it was a different story.
    I've been using Paypal since they started up, somewhere around 1998 I think. I've only had to make payments through others when sellers preferred them. So very little experience using any but Paypal.

    G

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