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Why a Mechanical Film Camera in a Digital Age?

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I work most of my time for a company that on a regular basis sends installation and service teams to customers around the world. Because we need to document the work they do, they all bring cameras. By the nature of their work, these are people with a sound understanding of mechanics and engineering. Still, being able to understand and remember the settings they should use for the relatively simple cameras they bring (mostly Nikon P330 at the moment), is mostly beyond their reach. So every camera is pre-set by me before they leave. Unfortunately, far too often, somebody fiddles with the settings, and we get back a pile of blurry VGA resolution photos.

What this tells me is that current cameras are too complicated with too many choices for the average user. This reminds me a bit of the frequent, and often heated, discussions between Apple and Windows users on the internet. At the top of the discussion, when an Apple user has claimed that it's difficult to do certain things on a Windows computer, som MS nerd will come to the help with a list of twenty something parameters that has to be set and voila... it's sooo simple. He then goes on to say that those who don't build their own computers aren't really worthy of using one... etc.

As for obsolescence: Yes, there has always been obsolescense, but Olympus still had parts for my OM-1 in the late nineties, 25 years after the camera was launched. Some independent repair shops still have parts in stock, 40 years later. My first DSLR, a Fujifilm S3, had more trips to Fujifilm during its 4 active years than the OM-1 had to repair shops during its entire 35 year life (the Olympus went in for repair one time only, and many camera shops could fix this and other cameras when needed). After 4 years, vital parts for the S3 weren't available any longer, and although it can still be used, it is with limitation that don't make it very tempting. The S5 that followed it developed a faulty mainboard after 3 or 4 years and doesn't AF. No grand prize to those who have guessed that the main board isn't available any longer. While it was, changing it cost as much as buying another, used camera. Batteries for the S5? Nope, no have, at least not from Fuji.

So I buy second hand pro cameras with low shutter counts nowadays. They last longer and parts seem to be in stock longer too. But I also use an OM-2, and to those who claim that old cameras only look good with rosy tinted glasses: That's simply not true. The OM-2 is a much more satisfying camera to use than all of my digital boxes and it features all the functionality I need. If there was a digital version, something like the Leica 60, I would be all over it.

The greatest irony is still the Nikon F6. It was designed at the same time as the D2H/X and shares many features with those cameras. Still, it's a much better camera, smaller, lighter, more nimble, simpler... a gem in every way. 10 years later, after the D2H has been replaced a dozen times, the F6 still soldiers on and is still, from a camera body perspective, a better camera than either the D4s or the D810. Not because it can compete on features, but because it's still, smaller, lighter, with a better grip, nimbler and easier to use.

Rosy glasses? I leave that for the memories of my old Citroen cars with which I spent countless hours in cold, Norwegian winters hoping that they would finally start. But thrugh those pink glasses, they still look good.

When all that has been said; yes, there has been progress, but the progress lacks focus on photography. It seems to me that camera manufacturers are run by a team of marketing people and bean counters. Maximise the marketing value (lots of features) and minimise the cost (minimum spare parts, none after 5 years). I enjoy the new cameras, but mostly because some of them are lovely gadgets.

Grain-free daylight photos taken at midnight? If that is the target, by all means, but it isn't for me. Call me a grumpy, old man if you want :)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
BTW: I went back and read the article. There are half a dozen logical flaws in the argument being presented, the principle one being that it proposes obsolescence as being one thing for digital cameras and another thing for film cameras. That makes the comparison pretty useless. Mixed up, mushy logic like that means that it's just an emotional piece addressing how the author like film cameras more than digital cameras.

Feh, stupid. Why did I waste the time?

G

I'll finish the roll in the M4-2 and load the SWC ... Meanwhile, I'll make a few hundred exposures with the X. No need to cloud my mind with silly tripe like this.

How'm I doing with the grumpy? ]'-)
 

Leigh

New member
I'll make a few hundred exposures with the X
And therein lies one of the main problems with digital, whether by camera or by smart phone.

People hope if they click the shutter release enough times, they might get one good photo.

And this qualifies as "photography" in the Third Millennium? More like a crap shoot.

- Leigh
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
And therein lies one of the main problems with digital, whether by camera or by smart phone.

People hope if they click the shutter release enough times, they might get one good photo.

And this qualifies as "photography" in the Third Millennium? More like a crap shoot.
Good job, Leigh. I see you're a master at grumpy. ...

G
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Honestly who cares what one uses to make images.

The philosophy of photography, the obsolescence of cameras, the super duper tech, all this in my view is good for a few seconds of read.

I want you to show me what you felt, what you saw, what you want me to see, what you want me to feel..not what equipment you used; not what someone famous did, not what the book tells you to do..

All such discussions lead to no conclusive results. Just opinions. You said, I said, he/she said or did. What did you do with what you have.


And this thread is without images to support any assertions made so far.
 

alajuela

Active member
Honestly who cares what one uses to make images.

The philosophy of photography, the obsolescence of cameras, the super duper tech, all this in my view is good for a few seconds of read.

I want you to show me what you felt, what you saw, what you want me to see, what you want me to feel..not what equipment you used; not what someone famous did, not what the book tells you to do..

All such discussions lead to no conclusive results. Just opinions. You said, I said, he/she said or did. What did you do with what you have.


And this thread is without images to support any assertions made so far.
Great Shot - and I don't care what camera you used - BUT you used it well.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
And therein lies one of the main problems with digital, whether by camera or by smart phone.

People hope if they click the shutter release enough times, they might get one good photo.

And this qualifies as "photography" in the Third Millennium? More like a crap shoot.

- Leigh
I think that's the point and benefit of digital though. The ability and cost effective nature to practice with the tool. I think there's room at the table for both. I grew up using Kodak 110 and a Vivitar 35mm Camera - but I never really got into photography seriously as a hobby until the digital age. Sure there may be SOME people who probably should never take another picture in their life, some are satisfied using "art filters" or "Instagram" to quickly produce digital versions of nostalgic looks - it doesn't mean it's any less photographic.

The beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if they like it that's all that matters. There will always be purists and perfectionist. For every 100 Instagram users doing "lesser" art there's someone on 500px, Deviant Art, or Flickr who is doing/ displaying some great work. It's all relative though.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I recall a documentary made by a*well known Scottish comedian ... Jimmy Connor? or something like that ... when he returned home to his native Glasgow for the first time in 20 years. He walked the streets he lived on as a child, pointed out all the things that were changed, new, almost beyond recognition and reminisced about "the way things were then."

At the end of the show, he turns to the camera, takes a quieting breath, and says (paraphrasing), "You know, with all said and done, modern Glasgow is very different from the Glasgow of my youth. But it isn't that Glasgow I miss as much as I miss my youth."

The same can be said of my beloved film and film cameras. They belong to a time past, a youth that cannot be reclaimed by any means. And that is what I miss the most.

G
Maybe... It was probably before my time.

You have the right idea though and I'm not knocking film. It can all be fun.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
...What this tells me is that current cameras are too complicated with too many choices for the average user. This reminds me a bit of the frequent, and often heated, discussions between Apple and Windows users on the internet. At the top of the discussion, when an Apple user has claimed that it's difficult to do certain things on a Windows computer, som MS nerd will come to the help with a list of twenty something parameters that has to be set and voila... it's sooo simple. He then goes on to say that those who don't build their own computers aren't really worthy of using one...
I think this lends more to a philosophical question of why do we buy what we don't need nor have the discipline/ ability/ desire to learn how to operate/use the things we buy?

Arguing against technological advances being included is a bit ridiculous in a way because we always buy things out of convenience even we don't use all of the abilities.

For instance most soccer moms don't off road their SUV's but they buy them because they "need space." A minivan or station wagon make a lot more sense but are becoming more uncommon. To use your computer analogy - what if they sold computers that only came with one type of software and it was only optimized for that? You're not going to buy one computer for MS Office and another for Photoshop, and yet another to surf the web or listen to music on. I hear people gripe about cameras that add video... I've even been guilty of it... The thing is as long as I don't switch it on it's really not in my way and it's not hurting anyone.

The fact is the market is shifting to computer integrated because someone is asking for additional functionality. To not keep up with market demands means that you risk not being competitive. Not a huge deal for a smaller company like Leica (although they were close to bankruptcy) but for the bigs they have to remain relevant.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
When all that has been said; yes, there has been progress, but the progress lacks focus on photography. It seems to me that camera manufacturers are run by a team of marketing people and bean counters. Maximise the marketing value (lots of features) and minimise the cost (minimum spare parts, none after 5 years). I enjoy the new cameras, but mostly because some of them are lovely gadgets.

Grain-free daylight photos taken at midnight? If that is the target, by all means, but it isn't for me. Call me a grumpy, old man if you want :)
You are a grumpy old man...

:D

Having the great opportunity of working at a camera company, the "bean counter" comment just is silly. Do you think companies should work at a loss? But that does not mean great products cannot be made--there is no correlation to engineering and accounting. But every company has accountants.

Should companies ignore customer demands? That is want marketers bring to the process. And there is a lot of input from engineers that want to bring great product to the market as well.

But I am not sure what camera is made without photography as a goal. It is rather fundamental in a camera.

Now, exactly why would you not want to have your camera take noise-free images in really low light? You would reject a camera because of this?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Honestly who cares what one uses to make images.

The philosophy of photography, the obsolescence of cameras, the super duper tech, all this in my view is good for a few seconds of read.

I want you to show me what you felt, what you saw, what you want me to see, what you want me to feel..not what equipment you used; not what someone famous did, not what the book tells you to do..

All such discussions lead to no conclusive results. Just opinions. You said, I said, he/she said or did. What did you do with what you have.
...
And this thread is without images to support any assertions made so far.
Lovely photograph, rayyan!

I believe we ought to care, and even discuss, but up to a point of understanding. Because what happens after that is, as you say, empty and directionless debate.

I have been shooting mostly the park this year.


But I suspect I'll get back to people soon enough.

G
 

Shashin

Well-known member
And therein lies one of the main problems with digital, whether by camera or by smart phone.

People hope if they click the shutter release enough times, they might get one good photo.

And this qualifies as "photography" in the Third Millennium? More like a crap shoot.

- Leigh
This was the criticism of view camera photographers with roll film photographers, roll film photographers leveled the same thing to 35mm photographers, then that same criticism was made with 35mm photographer with motor drives. And so the story goes. But that is the way you learn--you take lots of pictures. Then you see what works and try again. Over time, the hit rate increases. And the more you shoot, the more success you have. That sounds like photography to me, and the way photography has been practiced for generations.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Every form of photography is valid. Every form has advantages and disadvantages. Each has a look. None is inherently better than another. To say one is better because it is mechanical, digital, chemical, grammatical, symmetrical, or philosophical is not rational
 

Shashin

Well-known member
And this thread is without images to support any assertions made so far.
How do I post all the photographs in the history of photography? That is the evidence. Any philosophy of photograph has to include that. A philosophy that excludes any of that is incomplete. And there lies the problem.

I may feel for me that photography is X, Y, and Z. But that is me. That does not invalidate nor reduce the significance of anything that falls outside that. I don't see an exclusionary system or view of photography as productive.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Godfrey.

Lovely image this and others you have posted elsewhere. And enjoy your new
Cam ( cams )...;)

The image I posted was made by my wife.

Thank you and take care.

Lovely photograph, rayyan!

I believe we ought to care, and even discuss, but up to a point of understanding. Because what happens after that is, as you say, empty and directionless debate.

I have been shooting mostly the park this year.


But I suspect I'll get back to people soon enough.

G
 
I honestly feel that the root of this issue is from the earliest possible days of photography. Painters claimed that photography would entice image makers and viewers alike with "reproductions" of life that didn't rise above snapshots to the level of Art. They claimed that the painstaking process of composition and consideration that went into a painting was a better way to communicate larger-than-life truths than a snapshot. They were absolutely right in predicting what would happen with photography. We've become excessively adroit snapshot makers. We're good at recording "real life" (HONY anyone?) and to a great many enthusiasts who frequent forums, it's clear that reproduction of life is more important to them than making Art.

On the other hand, painters at the time failed to grasp how the rigorous, mechanical, and chemical discipline known as photography could be elevated beyond making snapshots into the realm of Art. Their view was too narrow and antagonistic. I completely agree with them that snapshots aren't Art and, contrary to some Modernist assertions, I think history has shown that not everything in existence is Art no matter how it's contextualized. But that's not to say that a photographer can't use a tool like a smartphone or a DSLR, take a bunch of photos that he or she may not even understand the value of at the moment of capture then come back some time later (after due consideration, editing, and potentially post-processing) and be able to show a work of Art where otherwise a snapshot existed.

I use an RB67 and film to try and work toward that ideal I never seem to actually attain which is, for me anyway, to always produce something that could be considered Art no matter whether it was a portrait for a parent or a sports picture at a football game. But some of my most moving images have been captured on continuous drive and I was completely unaware of what I had captured until I teased the image out later (sometimes much later).

The images we capture, using whatever tools we have at our disposal, using whatever means we deem necessary, are simply raw materials. They are not the image that could be called Art. Printing out Instagram pics and hanging them in a gallery is simply no different than placing a urinal in a gallery and putting a sticker on it calling it "Art". Context is important but there's way more to it than that. On the other hand, an image that is contextualized with other images that tells a story but is otherwise unremarkable in composition, color, or other technical details, I do think could be called Art.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Hello Will.

Posting all the photograhs in the history of photography would constitute a majority of boringly nauseating photographs, of interest only to the one who made it and/or his/her marketing agency or agent.

Not unlike viewing the uploads to photography sites in one day in our age. And not unlike most of the images I post.

The most wonderful photographs I have ever taken are those I keep in my wallet, those of my family. No photograph ever made would be better than those, to me.

But to another viewer? That is another question. And the important one when images are posted for an unkown audience to view.

Thank you for your insights and comments.

How do I post all the photographs in the history of photography? That is the evidence. Any philosophy of photograph has to include that. A philosophy that excludes any of that is incomplete. And there lies the problem.

I may feel for me that photography is X, Y, and Z. But that is me. That does not invalidate nor reduce the significance of anything that falls outside that. I don't see an exclusionary system or view of photography as productive.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I think that's the point and benefit of digital though. The ability and cost effective nature to practice with the tool. I think there's room at the table for both. ...
:)

In the case I wrote ("finish the roll of film in the M4-2 (18 exposures left) and load the SWC and finish it (12 exposures), meanwhile shoot a hundred exposures with the X"), the intent was that I'd be done with making 30 film exposures and 100 digital exposures by the end of the month or so.

Why so many more digital exposures?

Well, for one thing, the X is smaller and lighter than either the SWC or the M4-2 so it's easier to have with me all the time. For another thing, with the X I'm not locked into one film speed for all the shots I'm going to make so I can use it in a greater range of circumstances (I don't shoot when I know I can't get good results, that would be foolish and a waste of film...). And thirdly, well, processing film and scanning it does involved a considerable amount of additional time involvement in addition to importing my images into Lightroom, curating them, selecting the ones to render, rendering, and outputting them.

I don't think I'm much of a "machine gun" digital shooter. My entire day at the car and motorcycle show netted about 90 digital exposures, two-three rolls of 35mm film. It would have been nice to do more, but the light was a bit harsh and (as above) I don't make pictures when I know I'm just wasting shutter clicks—a long habit with cameras like the SWC and 12 frames per load. I was happy with the Baker's Dozen I posted, most of the rest are either photos that I don't post to the public (they're only to be shared with the people they are of) or aren't up to my standards for posting. That's a decent percentage for a day's casual shooting, but not something I wave a flag about. :)

G
 
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