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Thread: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

  1. #51
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Another thing that comes into consideration when I say a camera that I can use for all my photography, is the raw muscle power of the D810. Features that are useful for my photography that none of the A7 models (the only full frame mirrorless on the market) offer:

    - Up to 7 fps (in DX mode)
    - More than 3 times the battery capacity
    - Dual card slots
    - Built in flash
    - Superior AF-C
    - Group Area AF
    - Very deep buffer (up to 45 RAW frames)
    - USB 3
    - ISO 64/32
    - Semi silent shutter (compared to A7r)

    Many of these features were new to me when I acquired the D810, but they were also an important part of the buying decision, since I have missed them on previous cameras.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Like I said way up top, whatever works for you is all you shoud be concerned about. Why does it always have to come down to this vs that, mine vs yours?

    We can debate our differences, the differences in our equipment, what features matter or not, etc, ad nauseam. None of that makes any difference at all. Using what works, what you like, does. Getting the photos we are paid to make, or want to make, matters more than even that.

    As I said before good luck with the D810. Although it didn't sing to me at the shop, perhaps it's because I'm not listening on its wavelength at the moment. I know for a fact that it won't change but that I will... :-)

    G
    Equipment is transitory, photographs endure.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Jorgen's start of thread post described why he had made the camera choice, that he had made. Given that he had used various other make/brand of cameras over the years.

    To overcome the shortcomings, to him, of the other gear he had used; he reached a conclusion that the D 810 would better satisfy his photographic needs.

    In this forum, countless times, I have seen pages of threads about a new camera gear being bought. The buyers' enthusiasm to outdo each other in being the first ( or at least to be a part of this enthusiasm ) in announcing to all of us , at times even approaching a live transit commentary..mail received, dispatched, van approaching, it is here, battery charging etc. is accepted as good fun and we all join in the excitement ( dare I call it a gear acquisition orgasm ) and we all congratulate them on their new acquisition.

    Take the Sony 7 II introduction as an example. I hope I got the nomenclature correct, or the A7s. The hen's teeth or the bee's knees if you prefer. That's what it is supposed to be from the posts here.

    What is the point? Buy it use it and be happy. Then why compare it to other cameras, older generation of cameras, various makes/brands of cameras?
    Even more, why announce it to all of us about one's acquisitions?

    Jorgen, stated what he had bought and his reasoning for/of his choice. He did not trash other cameras he had used. Just mentioned their shortcomings.

    And then a first image was posted which had nothing whatsoever to with the subject but computer hardware running Yosemite, which I still have to install.

    Just good fun. Most instructive for me and some posts I found good for a laugh.
    So long as it is civil...just have fun.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Actually, it proves nothing.

    Jorgen has been quite articulate in stating his "requirements" and how current mirror-less cameras are unable to fulfill them, and why.

    Response time from pressing the shutter and the camera actually taking the photo has nothing to do with "muscle memory".

    Neither does learning a totally different type of unfamiliar camera like a Leica M, which does require practice to handle, but doesn't introduce the type of lag most (if not all) mirror-less cameras have when the objective is precise timing of an unpredictable "decisive moment" opportunity like the "little girl looking back" shot posted here.

    In an unbroken chain, I've made photos with a Leica M for the past 40+ years, and still use one. I'm fairly sure I have the "muscle memory", and "anticipation" parts of shooting down pat. That doesn't mean I wouldn't select a fast SLR/DSLR Auto-Focus camera for many situations where super swift AF has been coupled with instantaneous capture.

    IMO, the only thing this all proves is that the old saying "Horses For Courses" is still true.

    - Marc
    We will have to just agree to disagree on whether current mirrorless cameras are capable of capturing decisive moments due to shutter lag. There's always exceptions to the rule but I suppose for every exception there's an anecdoctal counterpoint and thus the endless chain starts where both camps are correct and incorrect.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Like I said way up top, whatever works for you is all you shoud be concerned about. Why does it always have to come down to this vs that, mine vs yours?

    We can debate our differences, the differences in our equipment, what features matter or not, etc, ad nauseam. None of that makes any difference at all. Using what works, what you like, does. Getting the photos we are paid to make, or want to make, matters more than even that.

    As I said before good luck with the D810. Although it didn't sing to me at the shop, perhaps it's because I'm not listening on its wavelength at the moment. I know for a fact that it won't change but that I will... :-)

    G
    Equipment is transitory, photographs endure.
    It's all about our individual needs of course, and our perceived needs not least. Needs change, and one of the great positives of mirrorless, and that goes for the different A7 varieties in particular, is that it has brought many back to the roots of photography. The D810 is in many ways the Swiss Army Knife of photography. Very suitable for me at the moment, but not what anybody needs, and even the D750 is probably a more useful camera for most.

    I await the next generation of mirrorless cameras with enthusiasm, particularly the A7r II/A9, the E-M2, the NX2 and not least whatever full frame mirrorless Nikon and/or Canon will come up with in the near future. In the meantime, I enjoy dragging old style innovation around.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Like I said way up top, whatever works for you is all you shoud be concerned about. Why does it always have to come down to this vs that, mine vs yours?

    We can debate our differences, the differences in our equipment, what features matter or not, etc, ad nauseam. None of that makes any difference at all. Using what works, what you like, does. Getting the photos we are paid to make, or want to make, matters more than even that.

    As I said before good luck with the D810. Although it didn't sing to me at the shop, perhaps it's because I'm not listening on its wavelength at the moment. I know for a fact that it won't change but that I will... :-)

    G
    Equipment is transitory, photographs endure.
    Spot on IMO.

    I really didn't think this thread was about "mine verse yours" at all. Just some folks relating their experiences to date which anyone can debate and agree-to-disagree if they wish.

    Actually, except for specialized use MFD and a MM Rangefinder, I am "all in" with the newer e-technology cameras (A99 SLT, A7R including LAEA-4 adapter, and probably an A7-II soon).

    That doesn't stop me from "wishing" for newer full-frame e-cameras that can match the older, more fully developed technologies that helped me with a particular way of capturing images. That the newer crop are "there" for others is irrevelant to me, and evidently also for others.

    My hope is that the smaller mirror-less e-cameras get there sooner than later. By "get there" I mean a professional level full-frame 24+meg camera that can replace those with a mirror-box (mechanical or SLT) more completely as determined by my needs, not someone else's. Jorgen's requirement list pretty much matches my own.

    Frankly, IF I were mid-career as opposed to winding down, I would never have moved to the Sony Mirror-Less. When I shoot for pay, I use the S camera and Sony A99 because both have dual card capture and a full compliment of optics. These alone trump size. When I shoot with the M or A cameras, it is for images I can afford to lose.

    I look froward to the day that an A-xx camera does it all.

    - Marc
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    It's interesting the "one camera that can do it all" notion. I suppose it's conceivable if all your imaging vision falls into a particular domain of seeing that such tools exist. But it's never been that way for me.

    In the film era, I always had 35mm cameras, mostly Nikon and Leica. But I also had Rolleiflex TLRs, 4x5, half frame, subminiature, and a few others as well as Polaroid. Each for the different way they recorded the world and how that interacted with my sight and vision.

    When I was running my photo business, I eschewed all the variations to focus on a particular range of seeing that I wanted to promote as my business. At that time, a pair of DSLRs did the job, I shot with them exclusively from end-2004 to late 2009 when the first 'mirrorless' came out. For what I was shooting at the time, the mirrorless did pretty much the same job as the DSLRs and I used them mostly interchangeably. They were the same format (FourThirds) and the lenses interchanged between the bodies easily (SLR lenses onto mirrorless bodies). The DSLRs were chosen when responsiveness was primary, but in most cases it was purely a matter of what other features I wanted to take advantage of as they certainly weren't identical. I shot that way until 2011, by which time I'd closed the business and moved on to other ways of making a living.

    Now I'm back to multiple film formats and several different digital camera systems because I pursue only my own vision without clients to satisfy. One camera certainly does not do it all, although over time I see my subject matter is becoming smaller while my ways of seeing it expand.

    So for a pro working a business, the 'one camera that does it all' makes some sense, I guess, but for the photographer pushing his or her own vision it depends entirely on what pushing the vision means.

    G
    Let your mind take you where equipment alone cannot go.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    What is the point? Buy it use it and be happy. Then why compare it to other cameras, older generation of cameras, various makes/brands of cameras?
    Even more, why announce it to all of us about one's acquisitions?
    Well, I think this has been an interesting discussion - we all need different things, and sometimes some of us need several different things. Comparisons are relevant - and in this context you brought it up by comparing mirrorless to a dSLR for capturing the 'moment' and complained that mirrorless wasn't up to it.

    I think that some of the newer models (the bees knees ones) are up to it - including the E-M1 for instance. But the discussion is certainly worth having.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Godfrey,
    The "do-it-all" wasn't something that I expected to happen and nothing I was searching for until I actually held the camera in my hand. It's never a 100% true notion of course, but for now, it's good enough.

    To have a camera like that has two consequences for me:

    - I save money by only having to buy lenses and other stuff for one camera system.
    - I travel a lot, and m4/3 has mostly been great for that, but sometimes during my travels, the need arises for higher resolution, less DOF, better AF etc., not because I couldn't mostly get the images I needed or wanted before, but because the commercial value of my photos increases and because I can stretch the limits further.

    When going to places where few westerners travel, and that I never know if I will be able to return to, not bringing the best camera gear that I can afford would be silly. Not being prepared for more or less any shooting situation would also be silly. Bringing a camera that doesn't have a user interface that makes the job as easy and as fluent as possible doesn't make sense.

    It's not only about pushing ones vision. It's also about pushing physical limits and about using a system that has been proven to work always. Nikon cameras are rather boring, but like a MacBook or a Toyota, they mostly work the way they are supposed to.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    I think that some of the newer models (the bees knees ones) are up to it - including the E-M1 for instance. But the discussion is certainly worth having.

    All the best
    The E-M1 is in a class of its own. I've kept my PanaLeica 14-50mm

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Jorgen,

    No need to rationalize or explain to me. I was responding to Marc's post immediately preceding mine. I guess it didn't thread quite as I thought it would. :-)

    It's all good, far as I'm concerned. A solid Nikon is a fine camera.

    I've been traveling since last Wednesday with only the Leica X. It's been enough: light, small, solid, great photos, and easy to use. Only thing it's lacking is that added bit of responsiveness that the M9 and E-M1 have.

    G

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Godfrey,
    The "do-it-all" wasn't something that I expected to happen and nothing I was searching for until I actually held the camera in my hand. It's never a 100% true notion of course, but for now, it's good enough.

    To have a camera like that has two consequences for me:

    - I save money by only having to buy lenses and other stuff for one camera system.
    - I travel a lot, and m4/3 has mostly been great for that, but sometimes during my travels, the need arises for higher resolution, less DOF, better AF etc., not because I couldn't mostly get the images I needed or wanted before, but because the commercial value of my photos increases and because I can stretch the limits further.

    When going to places where few westerners travel, and that I never know if I will be able to return to, not bringing the best camera gear that I can afford would be silly. Not being prepared for more or less any shooting situation would also be silly. Bringing a camera that doesn't have a user interface that makes the job as easy and as fluent as possible doesn't make sense.

    It's not only about pushing ones vision. It's also about pushing physical limits and about using a system that has been proven to work always. Nikon cameras are rather boring, but like a MacBook or a Toyota, they mostly work the way they are supposed to.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It's interesting the "one camera that can do it all" notion. I suppose it's conceivable if all your imaging vision falls into a particular domain of seeing that such tools exist. But it's never been that way for me.

    In the film era, I always had 35mm cameras, mostly Nikon and Leica. But I also had Rolleiflex TLRs, 4x5, half frame, subminiature, and a few others as well as Polaroid. Each for the different way they recorded the world and how that interacted with my sight and vision.

    When I was running my photo business, I eschewed all the variations to focus on a particular range of seeing that I wanted to promote as my business. At that time, a pair of DSLRs did the job, I shot with them exclusively from end-2004 to late 2009 when the first 'mirrorless' came out. For what I was shooting at the time, the mirrorless did pretty much the same job as the DSLRs and I used them mostly interchangeably. They were the same format (FourThirds) and the lenses interchanged between the bodies easily (SLR lenses onto mirrorless bodies). The DSLRs were chosen when responsiveness was primary, but in most cases it was purely a matter of what other features I wanted to take advantage of as they certainly weren't identical. I shot that way until 2011, by which time I'd closed the business and moved on to other ways of making a living.

    Now I'm back to multiple film formats and several different digital camera systems because I pursue only my own vision without clients to satisfy. One camera certainly does not do it all, although over time I see my subject matter is becoming smaller while my ways of seeing it expand.

    So for a pro working a business, the 'one camera that does it all' makes some sense, I guess, but for the photographer pushing his or her own vision it depends entirely on what pushing the vision means.

    G
    Let your mind take you where equipment alone cannot go.
    By hoping that a FF Sony A camera can "do it all", I mean meet the list of "for pay" requirements I outlined, not do everything I need done all the time. Parallel to that is my own photography, which entails a different set of requirements fulfilled by different tools.

    - Marc
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    By hoping that a FF Sony A camera can "do it all", I mean meet the list of "for pay" requirements I outlined, not do everything I need done all the time. Parallel to that is my own photography, which entails a different set of requirements fulfilled by different tools.
    Good ... It seems we're in agreement on this. :-)

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Here's one thing that puzzles me endlessly:
    The user interface of the D810 dates back to the F5, a camera that was launched in 1996, 18 years ago. The digital parts were added in 2000 with the D1 and changed for the smaller body when the D200 was launched in 2006. Most photographers, except for some Canon users who think that God lives in their cameras, seem to agree that this is a user interface that works rather well (The Canon interface works well too, I suppose). That is obviously also the reason why it has lasted so long.

    Apart from the GH3/4, the NX1 and to a certain degree the E-M1, none of the current mirrorless cameras seem to look in that direction. I understand that retro is cool and all that, and re-inventing the wheel is fun too, but the reason why the butt ugly Canon Rebel cameras have sold by the truckload for years, is probably mostly down to one thing: people feel at home with the user interface.

    As a photographer, and this probably goes for most members of this forum, I'm often asked to take photos of people. With their camera! If it's a DSLR, any DSLR, it's easy. I lift the camera to my eye, zoom in or out and "click", photo taken. When I'm handed a mirrorless, a p&s or a camera phone, I have to figure out how the camera works first. Sometimes, I give up and have to ask the owner to explain the basics.

    What if cars were like that, or computer keyboards. It's unthinkable of course. But with cameras nowadays, anything goes. Making something that looks and works distinctly different from other cameras seems to be more important than making something that is intuitive and easy to use. The day I buy a mirrorless again, it will be one that follow certain norms when it comes to design and UI. Until then, I use something that was designed in 1996. My hands haven't changed much since then as far as I can see

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    I know exactly what you mean. The Leica X is the same experience... When I got the camera, I took it out of the box and was ready to shoot with it a minute later, without looking at the instructions at all.

    Why is this so darn difficult for most camera designers to achieve?

    I can understand the complexity of the E-M1 and other cameras like it that have a boatload of sophisticated features and need the user to be able to customize it for specific kinds of use. But why does it seem so difficult for the basics to be approachable on so many modern cameras? It's surely not rocket science...

    G

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    I was in Dubai last week.

    Tried the Sony A7 system. With a few Sony/Zeiss and some M lenses.
    A friend of mine, with good dealer connections, facilitated me having the camera
    for a few days.

    I brought the Df along with me, just for comparison. The Df is not a speed monster. Few focus points..well you all know the tech better than me.

    No one camera is a panacea..do it all.

    But as far as I am concerned, I shall wait for the next A7xxx iteration.

    I have agreed to do some heritage photography in the UAE. I shall do it
    With my Df; when I go back to the UAE shortly.

    p.s. http://http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/18/8063269/sony-electronics-future-selling-off-pc-smartphone-tv
    Last edited by rayyan; 20th February 2015 at 07:07.

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