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Thread: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    After 5 mostly happy years with a combination of Panasonic and Nikon cameras, mirrorless and DSLR, I've made a sudden move back to 100% Nikon and DSLR. Just in case others are interested in what and why, here are my thoughts around this theme:

    Pixels
    While I have been living happily with 12-16MP for all these years, a need for more pixels have arisen. An important client flagged this need more than 6 months ago, and now it's becoming reality. I could have moved to Sony, and for a long time, that looked like the most viable option, but the lack of native lenses and the fact that I would need at least two, probably three new bodies if going for that option, made the investment unbearable. Also, I didn't like the ergonomics of the first versions of the A7 bodies. Nor did I like the shutter noise. The A7 II is of course a much better camera, but the others still lag behind.

    Samsung was another alternative, but although the NX1 looks amazing on paper, it's untested, as is Samsung as a pro level supplier. Nikon or MF were the most likely candidates.

    Image Quality
    As happy as I have been with m4/3, there have been situations when I've attempted to pull my hair out. Blown reds in polyester fabrics is one that occurs for sports as well as with industrial settings. Software corrected lenses that don't behave as predicted is another (pocketable lenses are convenient, but there are limitations). Super advanced and very fast AF-S is great too, but when the camera disagrees with me and changing settings are fiddly, I lose shots.

    All the electronic wizardry is fine and very helpful, but sometimes, it detaches me from the process, physically as well as mentally. Image quality suffers in situations when that happens.

    Technology
    When the G1 was launched, it was a little camera revolution. Anything after that in the mirrorless market has been evolution. Fast evolution, but still evolution, like improved AF, improved viewfinders, more and better lenses, larger sensors etc.

    In my head, the DSLR bodies have been the dinosaurs, the ones that would become extinct sooner rather than later. And they will. Eventually. But... the DSLR bodies have developed too. Sensors have obviously become better, video capabilities have improved to a degree that they can compete with mirrorless cameras, better than some, worse than some, more and new features have become available in smaller, cheaper bodies. And so on.

    When summing up, I've found that the best DSLR cameras have indeed kept the distance to the mirrorless varieties rather constant. There's a huge difference between what one could get for $2-3,000 5 years ago and what one will get for the same amount today.

    Cost
    Cameras cost money, good cameras cost more money and good lenses too. Staying with Nikon would mean staying with most of my old lenses, lenses that have little monetary value but will still be useful for many years. Good native lenses for mirrorless aren't really much less expensive than their DSLR counterparts, regardless of format. With mirrorless, I can save money using legacy glass, but with zillions of good Nikkor lenses available used, that's the situation with a Nikon camera as well.

    While no digital camera is a healthy financial investment, prices of cameras that are replaced more frequently will obviously suffer the most. The D300 that I bought slightly used for $1,000 6 years ago can still be sold for $3-400. The GH1 that I bought for a similar price a year later can hardly be sold at all, and while the D300 still seems to be in top shape, the GH1 has had assorted electronic failures.

    Batteries
    The GH3 and GH4 have batteries about the same size as what most Nikon cameras have. Still, I can only get 4-500 shots out of one charge, while a typical Nikon DSLR will give me 2-3 times as much. Most other mirrorless cameras have tiny batteries that last even shorter, and although one can always bring spares, I don't need more logistic challenges than I already have. With 2 Nikon bodies, 2 batteries in each, I know that I have power that will last a long day at the race track or an event. Peace of mind

    Future
    Sooner or later, Nikon will launch an FX mirrorless camera. I see the "1" Series as little more than a test bed for mirrorless technology, and expect a camera that is somewhere between a V3 and an F4 within a year or two. I also expect that camera to retain full functionality with all my AF-S and Ai/AiS lenses. I might be wrong, but I doubt it. The people at Nikon know where the market will be heading in the future.

    Video
    Video quality of the latest Nikon bodies is very, very good. The specialist video websites always find something to pick on, but in reality, Nikon is now up there among most of the good mirrorless cameras, with the exception of A7s, GH4 and NX1. If I need an external viewfinder, one can be attached, as can external monitors, recorders, microphones etc.

    What made me make up my mind... fast
    When the F5 was Nikon's top model, that was all Nikon users needed. It was used for any kind of photography; sports, landscape, portrait etc. The backup for an F5 was another F5 or an F100 for those who wanted a smaller body as well, but the features were the same and the film was the same.

    With digital, "horses for courses" suddenly became the important buzzword. One body couldn't do it all anymore. A D1X for slow work, a D1H for speed. Canon did the same, and even used a smaller sensor for their sports camera. There were exceptions. The D2X was a nice attempt to do all, but couldn't do high ISO. The D700 was a better attempt, but only had 12MP. There was always a but.

    I hadn't give these things much thought lately, and when the D810 was launched, it looked like just another incremental upgrade to me. Maybe that is what it is, but for the first time (5D/II/III owners might disagree), when I finally bothered to try it out, I had a feeling of holding a "complete" digital camera in my hands.

    Image quality is great, low ISO, high ISO, any ISO, frame rate is high enough, buffer is huge, video quality is top notch and with practical features to match, the shutter is almost as silent as on the Contax RX, it's heavy, but lighter than the D700. I can use this camera for anything.

    When I was offered a hardly used copy $600 under the local street price, there wasn't much to consider any longer. It's all I need in an acceptably sized package. It's a camera that I'll use for many years.

    I'll miss the weight and size of the GH3 and lenses, and I'll miss the incredible Zuiko 75mm that lived on my camera. But I've found that the operation of the D810 is as fluent as with any Nikon in the past. And the files are to die for, which is what counts anyway. I'm still strong enough to carry a few extra kilograms. And when I'm not, there will be a mirrorless Nikon, a camera that I'm sure will be up there with the best... or above them.

    For there will be a mirrorless camera in my future as well. But right now, I'm very happy to look through an optical viewfinder. It doesn't feature a histogram and it can't be used for video, but it's the real, undistorted world I see in there. That's a value too
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But right now, I'm very happy to look through an optical viewfinder. It doesn't feature a histogram and it can't be used for video, but it's the real, undistorted world I see in there. That's a value too
    My aging eyes have made me consider DSLR again, so I can understand.
    I might give the new EVFs another look though.
    Enjoy your new tool.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    My aging eyes have made me consider DSLR again, so I can understand.
    I might give the new EVFs another look though.
    Enjoy your new tool.
    Most of the time, I don't think about what kind of viewfinder I use, but I do appreciate the very clear and orderly layout of the optical variety and the clear view to reality. From a technical point of view, an EVF is far superior with all its information and all its options, but in the real world...

    It's like comparing a good blended whisky to an outstanding single malt. In theory, the blended variety should be superior, being optimised through selection of the best ingredients. But the malt still offers the superior experience
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.


    + 1

    nothing beats the view through a good old Single Malt Reflex
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    + 1

    nothing beats the view through a good old Single Malt Reflex
    Hah - I quite agree, but when we were talking cameras I still favour a rangefinder for that 'natural light' experience,

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    DSLRs, Digital RF and such all are hybrid (old with new) cameras.

    A real digital camera comes with an EVF.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Finding whatever works for you best, Jorgen, is all you need to be concerned about. No explanations are needed.

    Nikon cameras and lenses have been a consistently great choice since I started doing photography in the 1960s. Enjoy the D810!

    G

    Equipment is transitory. Photography endures.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    Equipment is transitory. Photography endures.
    You come up with such off color quotes from time to time.

    So, is the D750 better than the A7?

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Often an experienced photographer's reasoning to use/purchase/abandon a certain camera can be useful for someone else that is considering the pros and cons of a certain type of camera.

    While one person's needs might be different, there could be certain common requirements that might be useful.

    Jorgen has put forward his personal, and I might add, a very sound reasoning for his purchase. His reasoning, with which I concur, might not fit another person's need. That is why we have choices. But one is more/better informed.

    For me the overriding concern with mirrorless systems is the lag. I need a fast
    responding camera..not for sports, but to react quickly to something I want to capture. A dslr is still the one to beat in such situations; for static subjects, anything would do for me.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You come up with such off color quotes from time to time.
    So, is the D750 better than the A7?
    Thank you.
    And "it depends."

    G
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You come up with such off color quotes from time to time.

    So, is the D750 better than the A7?
    No camera is "better", at least not in a universal sense of the world. Most people who take a lot of photos have a list in the back of their head, a list that one might not even be able to write down on the spot, with priorities, likes and dislikes that make up the basis for choice of camera.

    For me, when I picked up the D810, after having read the specs and a few user's comments earlier in the day, it was very easy and very fast. My initial thought was "This camera can do anything I need a camera to do". "... anything I need a camera to do". At the moment.

    Then I left behind at the shop what was, and in many ways still is, my favourite camera/lens combo (GH3/75mm/7-14mm), gear that had followed me on countless travels and that has hardly left me wanting ever. But needs change, people change and sometimes, gear change in a way that reminds me of when a toddler finds the correct shape and drops it into the correct hole of the shape sorter on first attempt.

    Had I lived a different kind of life, that camera might have been an A7-something or a GH4 or a Hasselblad or another one of the great cameras available to photographers these times. But now, it's the D810, and it really only boils down to one thing: It slot right into the shape sorter, without any resistance whatsoever

    ---

    ... and a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everybody on this great forum. Later today, I will go out and by Christmas Gifts to three kids who don't even know it's Christmas, but who love getting gifts. That will be an experience that beats any camera purchase. I would go back to my OM-1 rather than miss that
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Often an experienced photographer's reasoning to use/purchase/abandon a certain camera can be useful for someone else that is considering the pros and cons of a certain type of camera.

    While one person's needs might be different, there could be certain common requirements that might be useful.

    Jorgen has put forward his personal, and I might add, a very sound reasoning for his purchase. His reasoning, with which I concur, might not fit another person's need. That is why we have choices. But one is more/better informed.

    For me the overriding concern with mirrorless systems is the lag. I need a fast
    responding camera..not for sports, but to react quickly to something I want to capture. A dslr is still the one to beat in such situations; for static subjects, anything would do for me.
    Same here.

    While I would LOVE to jettison all my DSLR type gear (in my case actually an A99 SLT with EVF), I can't let it go yet because I have more faith in it over all the other forms of camera … be it the A7R, a Leica rangefinder, or even my much favored Leica S. The A99 has dual card capture, very quick reflexes, and its highly useful articulated LCD. Extremely reliable system for shooting things like weddings, where there are no second chances.

    In truth, for the above applications, my dream camera isn't some dinky mirror-less, or exotica … it's a Canon 1DX work horse with a basic zoom and a few fast primes. If I had plans to continue shooting weddings I'd dump all the Sony stuff and return to that sort of basic pro set-up. Fortunately, I'm not

    - Marc
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    For me the overriding concern with mirrorless systems is the lag. I need a fast
    responding camera..not for sports, but to react quickly to something I want to capture. A dslr is still the one to beat in such situations; for static subjects, anything would do for me.
    HI Ray
    Whilst the autofocus on mirrorless cameras really doesn't match a dSLR (especially for tracking) - I don't think it's true of lag . . . At Least - with SOME cameras - The Fuji X-T1 almost certainly has less lag than anything else available, the Sony A7 doesn't seem quite as good.

    Sure - there's an inevitable lag between what's happening and what you see in the viewfinder on an EVF (although it can be very tiny) . . . but there is also an inevitable lag whilst a mirror flips up and a shutter opens on a dSLR. In the end it's going to be easier to minimise the lag of the former than the lag of the latter.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Hi Jono.

    Season's greetings to you and all at GetDPI.

    Let me post an image..


    The monk is walking down a slope. I was photographing..looking away. I saw this monk ( more the wardrobe colors ), turned, focused and shot. I would have loved this image. By the time I had acquired focus, the evf ( or whatever had refreshed ) and the shot was taken, the monk had gone down the slope.

    For me a missed opportunity. But here is a 100% crop..


    Many things went wrong in the few milliseconds. I know with my Nikon I would have got the shot I wanted.

    Another example. I am standing in the departure lounge looking at planes. I notice the little girl. I turn and shoot...


    No, my friend, mirrorless have still some way to catch up.

    Take care.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Ray
    Whilst the autofocus on mirrorless cameras really doesn't match a dSLR (especially for tracking) - I don't think it's true of lag . . . At Least - with SOME cameras - The Fuji X-T1 almost certainly has less lag than anything else available, the Sony A7 doesn't seem quite as good.

    Sure - there's an inevitable lag between what's happening and what you see in the viewfinder on an EVF (although it can be very tiny) . . . but there is also an inevitable lag whilst a mirror flips up and a shutter opens on a dSLR. In the end it's going to be easier to minimise the lag of the former than the lag of the latter.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Ray
    Whilst the autofocus on mirrorless cameras really doesn't match a dSLR (especially for tracking) - I don't think it's true of lag . . . At Least - with SOME cameras - The Fuji X-T1 almost certainly has less lag than anything else available, the Sony A7 doesn't seem quite as good.

    Sure - there's an inevitable lag between what's happening and what you see in the viewfinder on an EVF (although it can be very tiny) . . . but there is also an inevitable lag whilst a mirror flips up and a shutter opens on a dSLR. In the end it's going to be easier to minimise the lag of the former than the lag of the latter.
    What happens while the mirror is flipping isn't a lag, Jono, it's a blackout. Big difference, and the blackout on the best modern cameras is so short, it's hardly noticeable. When there's little light, an EVF gets even slower. An OVF gets very dark, but it's still real-time. None of these solutions are perfect, and they are both good, but also very different when challenged.

    Comment to Rayyan's shots:
    Yes, I've experienced this countless times. I've tried to shoot a moving subject, even a slow moving one, "on impulse", only to discover that the subject wasn't where I saw it in the viewfinder when I took the photo. When following a moving subject, particularly with slow shutter speeds, one has to follow the subject exactly to get a sharp images. If the viewfinder is ever so little "out of sync", the image becomes blurry. Another side of this is that the blackout time of an SLR camera is constant, and one learns to calculate it on instinct. The blur of an EVF is not constant, and is impossible to calculate exactly, at least for my somewhat slow brain
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    No, my friend, mirrorless have still some way to catch up.
    But one example doesn't make a rule Ray, and you haven't mentioned which camera you took this with. Some are really slow - but the speed is usually related to getting focus and NOT shutter lag. I suspect your problem here was the AF and not lag relating to the EVF.

    . . . the way to test for shutter lag - or at least, a good way - is to sit in a bar with a nice glass of wine and a door out to a little frequented road. Focus on a specific point manually (to remove AF vagueries). Wait with your eye to the viewfinder . . . . .. . when someone passes outside the doorway take your shot - do it several times, get another glass of wine (coffee if you prefer). Try it with a few cameras. In most instances the person will have gone before you actually get the shot . . . but not with all cameras, and not all EVF cameras either.

    All the best
    Merry December 25th

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Coffee, Jono, never wine for me.

    I am not a technical person. My car breaks down, I walk away from it. Call an expert to fix it.

    Lights don't work in my bedroom, I shout for Ayesha.

    My camera cannot get a shot?
    I pick up my Nikon.

    In over 35 years of photography, I have missed very few shots I aimed for by my Nikon. Crap shot composition wise, yes. Wrong color balance yes. Wrong speed setting, yes...produced art.

    But lost the subject...never, that I can remember..in a pub or anywhere else.
    One example does not prove anything..true. Except a missed opportunity, and for me that is a loss.

    To minimise missed opportunities is why I use a Nikon dslr. Opportunities don't come often...having the right equipment gives me a more than fair chance of capturing them.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    AF is also a part of it of course. For some situations with stationary subject or subjects moving slowly towards me, I find the mirrorless cameras I have used, Panasonic and Olympus, superior, sometimes vastly superior. But I also find the AF systems of those cameras to complicated with too many options that sometimes work counterintuitive. That's one of the problems with technology; sometimes a kitchen knife works better than a laser cutter.

    Very often on an SLR camera, I simply use one AF sensor and AF-S. That gives me full manual control. With mirrorless cameras, there isn't really any such thing as full manual control, at least not in my experience. When the technology works, it works great. When it misses, I miss too, just like Rayyan.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    To minimise missed opportunities is why I use a Nikon dslr. Opportunities don't come often...having the right equipment gives me a more than fair chance of capturing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    AF is also a part of it of course. For some situations with stationary subject or subjects moving slowly towards me, I find the mirrorless cameras I have used, Panasonic and Olympus, superior, sometimes vastly superior. But I also find the AF systems of those cameras to complicated with too many options that sometimes work counterintuitive. That's one of the problems with technology; sometimes a kitchen knife works better than a laser cutter.

    Very often on an SLR camera, I simply use one AF sensor and AF-S. That gives me full manual control. With mirrorless cameras, there isn't really any such thing as full manual control, at least not in my experience. When the technology works, it works great. When it misses, I miss too, just like Rayyan.
    Hey - don't get me wrong - Me? I prefer a rangefinder (no AF lag, no Mirror lag, no Mirror slap). . . . . . But I think that 'lag' is something that doesn't exist IF you have release priority enabled - and you can do that on a mirrorless as well (although it probably isn't enabled by default).

    Try the cafe door trick one day though - it can be very enlightening. . . . and it only costs you for the glass of wine

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Mirrorless (manual focus, no AF) does not bother me with shutter lag nor am I perturbed by exposure compensation. It has nothing to do with the camera.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hey - don't get me wrong - Me? I prefer a rangefinder (no AF lag, no Mirror lag, no Mirror slap). . . . . . But I think that 'lag' is something that doesn't exist IF you have release priority enabled - and you can do that on a mirrorless as well (although it probably isn't enabled by default).

    Try the cafe door trick one day though - it can be very enlightening. . . . and it only costs you for the glass of wine
    When it comes to viewfinders and interaction with the subject and the environment around, nothing beats a rangefinder camera. For the cafι door trick, it's the obvious winner, particularly for those who can shoot with both eyes open. I do find the German price tags a bit inhibiting though

    One camera that I have very high hopes for, if it ever appears, is the Fuji X-Pro2 with an improved hybrid viewfinder. That should be a camera that offers the advantages of all systems and then some that we haven't heard about yet. If/when I buy a mirrorless camera again, that is a very likely candidate, if it becomes as good as I anticipate and if video capabilities are dramatically improved. But I'm in no hurry. Not right now anyway.

    It's a pity that Sony haven't developed a DSLR with a hybrid viewfinder. The SLT cameras are very close to open up that possibility, but it's as if they closed down the optical option somewhere along the road. Very premature if you ask me.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    When it comes to viewfinders and interaction with the subject and the environment around, nothing beats a rangefinder camera.
    I dunno.. An LCD used as viewfinder can provide much of the same feel. It's less confining than an eye-level viewfinder.

    G

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Okay I
    L put my instructor hat on. Your not missing shots because of the gear folks your missing shots because you are just not thinking ahead . Don't blame the gear once you know what it takes to get it into action that's the time you need to be thinking ahead of what will happen next given any scene. Now no question you need responsive gear. My comment is more about you than about tools. Btw a A6000 is damn fast, so I'm not so sure a DSLR is any faster per say. They all need to boot up and get to AF fast. Sure no question like a A7r maybe a little slow but if your thinking ahead of what happens next than you are just more prepared. Sometimes no amount of speed will get the shot either.

    I miss a shot its on me not the gear. I don't use anything for a excuse. If I'm not looking than its my fault.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Can't disagree with you, Guy. But there are times when the shot to shot responsiveness, or lack of it, can get in the way. Most modern DSLRs are pretty good at that, a lot of the mirrorless cameras are still a bit behind that curve.
    Last edited by Godfrey; 25th December 2014 at 11:29.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Thank you Godfrey.

    ' responsiveness ' ( or lack of it ) describes it.

    Take a shot, turn quickly to another subject away from the first. Then another in another direction.

    I would, with the current state of mirroless technology , bet my dslr to give me
    Significantly more keepers.

    Guy, you are correct that thinking ahead and planning is crucial.
    But the shots I am talking about, happen as and when they happen. I am not even talking about a child running across/towards you...tracking etc.

    It is the responsiveness to unplanned, immediate happenings where the photog and his/her equipment have to get the shot. Neither one can let the other down.

    Mirrorless( I use and love mine ) have still some catching up to do.
    I need af nowadays. I must have it. Else I would use my Ms.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    My comment is more about you than about tools. Btw a A6000 is damn fast, so I'm not so sure a DSLR is any faster per say. They all need to boot up and get to AF fast. Sure no question like a A7r maybe a little slow but if your thinking ahead of what happens next than you are just more prepared. Sometimes no amount of speed will get the shot either.

    I miss a shot its on me not the gear. I don't use anything for a excuse. If I'm not looking than its my fault.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Does anyone on this forum think that the most expensive/latest mirrorless is as responsive....shot to shot and different autofocus scenes in quick succession than the cheapest dslr.

    Not talking about good enough..equal or better.

    Give me an entry level dslr, I bet it would run rings around the latest and the best af mirroless system.

    Why do you think dslrs are still around...lumbersome, heavy, dinosaurs from a bygone age...but they are persistent like cockroaches...surviving the onslaught of the ' technological marvel mirroless ' systems.

    Dslrs will perish, one day. But news of their demise is premature currently.
    And the so called smaller size myth. Tried any new telephoto lenses for your petite mirroless lately.

    The mirroless do have a place, for sure. I carry one for convenience.
    But I am very aware of its limitations cf my Nikon. There is no comparison.

    And the only planning I do for vacations is how to get there, where to stay.
    What to photograph? Heck if I know that, why should I visit the place. The thrill of seeing something new, unknown. What might come up around a corner?
    Quick...react, grab a shot and move on.

    Ayesha is off to Iceland in about a week. The only thing we planned for is the cold and the snow/ice. Glaciers...they don't move too fast..do they?

    Which camera should she take? Even her jazzed up maxi iPhone 6 ( ? ) would be far more for that.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Like Guy, I never blame the hammer for a bent nail.

    However, I do blame myself when I select a tool that can't do my bidding. I know I am not slow in determining the decisive moment … that nano second difference between "got it" and "didn't get it". It is a deliberately cultivated instinct coupled with hard earned skill.

    While "anticipation" is a key element in "getting it", it isn't the only element contributing to capturing decisive moments on regular basis (as opposed to by accident). No amount of anticipation will guarantee the capture of a fleeting expression, or a sudden unexpected development.

    In that respect a bullet passing through a balloon, and a sly twinkle in the eye have a lot in common … they both require the right tool to react on an immediate basis.

    In my experience to date the latter is best served by a rangefinder … followed by the swifter crop of DSLRs … the single shot black out of a viewfinder on a standard Pro DSLR capable of 5 to 8 FPS is faster than the twinkle of an eye. But that is irrelevant anyway … it is the lag time from pressing the shutter button and the camera taking the shot that is at issue.

    The mirror-less/EVF cameras lag in that department, and that includes the SLTs … my A900 was more responsive from "press-to-take" than my current A99 … and it has shown up in ever so slightly missed decisive moments … and in that case "every so slightly" might as well be "missed by a mile"

    - Marc

    (Addendum: BTW, I agree with Jono that the Mirror-less camera would seem to have the potential to be more instantaneous, (electronic verses mechanical) … and when they get there, I'll be the first in line for that breakthrough).
    Last edited by fotografz; 25th December 2014 at 03:03.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    iPhone 6 is a genial tool. While buying one, I spotted this (how could anyone miss it?). 700 Euros given away happily for the basic version.



    Sony A7r, Color Yashinon 40/1.7

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Tap to focus and capture on the LCD of an E-M5 is much faster than focus-recompose-capture on any DSLR. But that doesn't mean it's better for most situations.

    It's no surprise that everyone commenting in this thread finds a particular system best suited for how they shoot, and it's usually the system they have used longest.

    I'm not a total mirrorless advocate - my 9 year old Canon is still the best tool *for me* to capture action. But I like what the latest cameras make available (Leica glass with IBIS, focus assist, and good high ISO - superb high ISO if you're willing to give up somewhere else, sharp smallish AF lenses), so it's worthwhile trying to learn to use them. But if a new camera isn't as natural and doesn't have the success rate of a system I've used for a decade, I don't see that as even needing a comment. Anything else would be cause for celebration, indeed!

    Best,

    Matt
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    But if a new camera isn't as natural and doesn't have the success rate of a system I've used for a decade, I don't see that as even needing a comment
    Well said!

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
    Sony A7r, Yashinon 40/1.7, The Hague

    Exactly captured what I intended.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Tap to focus and capture on the LCD of an E-M5 is much faster than focus-recompose-capture on any DSLR. But that doesn't mean it's better for most situations.

    It's no surprise that everyone commenting in this thread finds a particular system best suited for how they shoot, and it's usually the system they have used longest.

    I'm not a total mirrorless advocate - my 9 year old Canon is still the best tool *for me* to capture action. But I like what the latest cameras make available (Leica glass with IBIS, focus assist, and good high ISO - superb high ISO if you're willing to give up somewhere else, sharp smallish AF lenses), so it's worthwhile trying to learn to use them. But if a new camera isn't as natural and doesn't have the success rate of a system I've used for a decade, I don't see that as even needing a comment. Anything else would be cause for celebration, indeed!

    Best,

    Matt
    I'd agree that giving up something to gain something else is a valid reason to use one type of tool over something else.

    However, that isn't the issue being discussed … IF press-to-shoot time responsive is the something you do not want to give up. Tapping a LCD screen on a crop frame camera to focus, and then shooting better be coupled with steady arm's length skill, or a very high shutter speed.

    There is absolutely nothing new about shooting with a SLT verses a DSLR except the SLT introduces lag from press to shoot … same for the Sony A series cameras … I can't train myself or learn how to compensate for "press to shoot lag" when it is a sudden fleeting expression I wanted to capture … no matter how well I anticipate, how fast my reflexes may be, or how familiar I may be with my A99. My Leica rangefinder consistently murders the A99 in that part of the "decisive moment" department.

    BTW, there were some DSLRs which had that same sort of lag in past. I didn't count on them either.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 25th December 2014 at 03:57.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well said!

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
    Sony A7r, Yashinon 40/1.7, The Hague

    Exactly captured what I intended.
    Proves nothing.

    We don't know where the subject was when you actually pressed the shutter … in this case anticipation was all that was needed, similar to shooting a run-way model or a bride coming down the aisle … easy to pre-visualize, pre-focus and even intuitively factor in a nano bit of lag. Could be done with any camera in skilled hands.

    What if the bottom of her bag suddenly ripped and the contents poured out? That would be an unexpected decisive moment added to the already anticipated focus and framing … requiring both quick human reflexes and very fast capture responsiveness from the tool. I'd place better odds on a Rangefinder or good DSLR over a mirror-less in that case every time.

    - Marc
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    At the Apple Store in Amsterdam, a few minutes ago, I checked the price of this
    contraption that my wife has...iPhone 6 ( ? ).


    It was priced at Euros 999.00

    Happily given. Being happily used. Seems it is called an iPhone 6 Plus. Heck I have a Nokia. They bought me an iPhone ( ? ). I use only 15 numbers. 5 for the family, 10 for my friends. Others I don't bother to answer.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Decisive moments, planned and anticipated moments?

    I decide, and when my cam is responsive enough everything falls into place.


    Exactly like I wanted it.

    Waiting for something to happen. No. I prefer to make it happen. Me and my cam.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Proves nothing.

    We don't know where the subject was when you actually pressed the shutter … in this case anticipation was all that was needed, similar to shooting a run-way model or a bride coming down the aisle … easy to pre-visualize, pre-focus and even intuitively factor in a nano bit of lag. Could be done with any camera in skilled hands.
    At the very least one could figure out this was a pedestrian crossing. This is a very special area in the Hague. This also is the only area where there has been an "IS" black flag march in the whole of Europe.

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    I am going to sit at a busy pedestrian crossing for a an hour. I hope to be able to photograph some pedestrians.

    See..planning, anticipation and the decisive moment of pedestrians crossing the street or just waiting to cross the street.

    Take care.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Proves nothing.

    ....
    What if the bottom of her bag suddenly ripped and the contents poured out? That would be an unexpected decisive moment added to the already anticipated focus and framing … requiring both quick human reflexes and very fast capture responsiveness from the tool. I'd place better odds on a Rangefinder or good DSLR over a mirror-less in that case every time.

    - Marc

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Decisive moments, planned and anticipated moments?

    I decide, and when my cam is responsive enough everything falls into place.


    Exactly like I wanted it.

    Waiting for something to happen. No. I prefer to make it happen. Me and my cam.
    Ray, that's beautiful, but the camera did not take that picture.

    You don't have anything to prove. If you say "I don't feel a synergy with this camera." Fine. Out it goes. If you and Marc shoot the same way, you may agree which cameras are keepers and which go back. I'm certainly not arguing that point with either of you. I'm keeping my DSLR, too.

    The only point I'm trying to make is that the new technology has weird and unfamiliar abilities that might - with time and practice - allow surprisingly successful results. Key word "might". I mention the E-M5 because it does allow for some unusual street captures, especially for someone unfamiliar and uncomfortable with that medium. Should it replace the workflow of successful professionals? Hell no! Could someone starting out with it master the technology over a few years? We'll see.

    Best,

    Matt
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    What if the bottom of her bag suddenly ripped and the contents poured out? That would be an unexpected decisive moment added to the already anticipated focus and framing … requiring both quick human reflexes and very fast capture responsiveness from the tool. I'd place better odds on a Rangefinder or good DSLR over a mirror-less in that case every time.

    - Marc
    The next frame with the kid trying to tear away from the mom. The A7r was enough for me.



    (I was warned many times for going around with a DSLR years ago in this very area)

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Matt.

    Point well stated and well taken. Thanks.

    Season's greetings to you, yours and all those that celebrate this Holy season.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Ray, that's beautiful, but the camera did not take that picture.

    You don't have anything to prove. If you say "I don't feel a synergy with this camera." Fine. Out it goes. If you and Marc shoot the same way, you may agree which cameras are keepers and which go back. I'm certainly not arguing that point with either of you. I'm keeping my DSLR, too.

    The only point I'm trying to make is that the new technology has weird and unfamiliar abilities that might - with time and practice - allow surprisingly successful results. Key word "might". I mention the E-M5 because it does allow for some unusual street captures, especially for someone unfamiliar and uncomfortable with that medium. Should it replace the workflow of successful professionals? Hell no! Could someone starting out with it master the technology over a few years? We'll see.

    Best,

    Matt

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    it is the lag time from pressing the shutter button and the camera taking the shot that is at issue.
    Nail on head as usual Marc. Pretty much everything else is in our control

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The mirror-less/EVF cameras lag in that department, and that includes the SLTs … my A900 was more responsive from "press-to-take" than my current A99 … and it has shown up in ever so slightly missed decisive moments … and in that case "every so slightly" might as well be "missed by a mile"

    - Marc

    (Addendum: BTW, I agree with Jono that the Mirror-less camera would seem to have the potential to be more instantaneous, (electronic verses mechanical) … and when they get there, I'll be the first in line for that breakthrough).
    I think that some of them are there already - I understand that the Fuji X-T1 has the lowest shutter lag of any camera (or had it when it was released). . . and of course the Sony A7s has a full electronic shutter - not sure how that translates in terms of lag.

    As far as I can see most EVF cameras are let down by the AF.

    But in absolute terms I'm with Guy - getting the image is about practice and skill and using the right equipment for the job. . . most 'travel' cameras aren't the right tool for the decisive moment, that's for sure!

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Does anyone on this forum think that the most expensive/latest mirrorless is as responsive....shot to shot and different autofocus scenes in quick succession than the cheapest dslr.

    Not talking about good enough..equal or better. ...
    The Olympus E-M1 is as fast or faster shot to shot (single shot mode) as any of my DSLRs have been when set up correctly for responsiveness. I sometimes forget that it is not a DSLR.

    I haven't used all the other current competitors on the market enough to gauge it against them. Ultimate speed, however, comes down to which lens you're using when it comes to AF speed; some lenses are faster at AF than others. Never bothers me as I use MF a good bit of the time. I don't think any of my lenses are the state of the art in AF speed.

    G

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Well, one doesn't have to go back provided one didn't abandon DSLRs in the first place!
    I love using, side by side, Nikon DSLRs, Leica Rangefinder, Sony and Olympus Mirrorless cameras. Isn't it wonderful to have these and more choices?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post

    nothing beats the view through a good old Single Malt Reflex
    now illustrated

    ©lick for actual pixels


    © • Nikon D610 • Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100mm ZF • 1/6 sec at f/8 ISO 100 • Capture NX-D
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Decisive moments, planned and anticipated moments?

    I decide, and when my cam is responsive enough everything falls into place.


    Exactly like I wanted it.

    Waiting for something to happen. No. I prefer to make it happen. Me and my cam.
    Great photo, and typically a situation that can't be anticipated. Even if you know that the girl will turn, you don't know when. Even the tiniest lag, and the image is gone.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Here's worst case scenario just to show how bad it can be:

    - Little to no light
    - Subject speed varies
    - Distance to subject varies
    - Slow shutter speed

    The point of the photo was to get what is sometimes referred to as a "cross pan" or "cross blur" photo, where the front and the back of the car blurs in different directions due to the low shutter speed. Normally with a 28mm equivalent like I used here, I would go to 1/15 to 1/20s, but I had more or less given up when this photo was taken, and increased speed to 1/30s to see if I could get at least a couple of shots with vital parts sharp. Vital parts would be sponsor logo and/or number on the car.

    That is not possible without placing the exact point of the car that should be sharp at an exact point in the viewfinder and keep it ther. I use the focus point indicators for that with an SLR camera, and I reduce the number of focus points visible in the viewfinder to make it easier to follow.

    When these cars enter the curve, their speed is probably around 100 kilometers per hour, which slows down as the drift starts. 100 kilometers per hour is 28 meters per second or roughly 5 meters per shot at 5fps.

    Even the tiniest lag makes it impossible to get a "sharp" shot under these circumstances, since the car will inevitably move around in the viewfinder if I'm late to react, and I am when there's a lag. As stated earlier, the blackout time of a good DSLR is so short that it's hardly noticeable, and it's 100% predictable. Also, it's the same regardless of time of day, weather, temperature and what I had for lunch.

    With an SLR, my hit rate for photos like these varies between 1 in 10 to 1 in 25 regardless of light. With a mirrorless camera, the hit rate sinks to something like 1 in 40 to 1 in 60 during daytime and zero at night like here. This in spite of the fact that I mostly use longer shutter times with an SLR. The results for mirrorless cameras actually improves slightly if I follow the subject and take only one shot pre-focused.



    I notice that often when this discussion comes up, those who want to prove that mirrorless cameras are suitable for sports, mostly show photos taken in broad daylight of subjects coming straight towards the photographer, move at a slow pace or travel along a more or less straight line at a predictable speed. I can take pan shots with my Nokia under circumstances like that. Then there are the inevitable soccer shots where the superior face detection of mirrorless cameras makes getting the shot very easy.

    Which of course means that for some action photography, the best mirrorless cameras can actually be better than a DSLR, if the sensor can render images of the same quality. There was a thread at dpr last year that showed that this wasn't always the case. That discussion was about blown red colours in images showing football players with red jerseys, comparing photos from an E-M1 and a D3. I know from my industrial photos that this is a problem, at least with the Panasonic bodies.

    Which brings me back to the start: I need a camera system that I can use for all kinds of photography and a camera that doesn't come between me and the image. As good as some mirrorless cameras are, they aren't there yet.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Jorgen congrats on your camera

    I agree with the familiarity with the tool matters crowd. Case in point I missed A LOT of shots when I dropped my DSLR and mirrorless cameras to go Leica M exclusive about 5 years ago. It had nothing to do with the camera and everything to do with my skill level/comfort level to take quick shots. After a few months I hardly missed any shots that I was positioned correctly for. Had nothing to do with the equipment, AF, view finder, or lag.

    That's not to say that those aren't real things for others... They are but that's more of a internal "muscle memory" issues from an unfamiliar nature with the equipment. When you get comfortable with the equipment then it goes away - sort of like driving a different make of vehicle than your own. Once you get used to the initial perceived limits then you can push it hard within those boundaries.

    All of this said just goes to prove one thing and one thing only. We all have different "requirements" from our equipment and many buy into other systems to attempt to improved our perceived nagging flaws of the systems we own/use. The fact that some can get the shot with the same type of equipment that others say isn't possible proves there's more fault in the photographer than the camera. This isn't about brand, camera type, or the lens used so much as it is about skill and comfort with the equipment.
    Last edited by iiiNelson; 26th December 2014 at 07:07.
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Which brings me back to the start: I need a camera system that I can use for all kinds of photography and a camera that doesn't come between me and the image. As good as some mirrorless cameras are, they aren't there yet.
    That is all fine. Without having the the right tools in that very system what is the point of praising something you do not use and putting down another that you have no idea about (This also goes for the Nikon fans who are blindly supporting the DSLRs)?

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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Maybe I make it look to complicated. The simple truth is that after 5 years using mirrorless cameras for the bulk of my photography, I still find SLR cameras simpler to use and superior in performance.
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  50. #50
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    Re: Why did I do that? Back to DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Jorgen congrats on your camera

    I agree with the familiarity with the tool matters crowd. Case in point I missed A LOT of shots when I dropped my DSLR and mirrorless cameras to go Leica M exclusive about 5 years ago. It had nothing to do with the camera and everything to do with my skill level/comfort level to take quick shots. After a few months I hardly missed any shots that I was positioned correctly for. Had nothing to do with the equipment, AF, view finder, or lag.

    That's not to say that those aren't real things for others... They are but that's more of a internal "muscle memory" issues from an unfamiliar nature with the equipment. When you get comfortable with the equipment then it goes away - sort of like driving a different make of vehicle than your own. Once you get used to the initial perceived limits then you can push it hard within those boundaries.

    Just goes to prove one thing and one thing only. We all have different "requirements" from our equipment and many buy into other systems to attempt to improved our perceived nagging flaws of the systems we own/use.
    Actually, it proves nothing.

    Jorgen has been quite articulate in stating his "requirements" and how current mirror-less cameras are unable to fulfill them, and why.

    Response time from pressing the shutter and the camera actually taking the photo has nothing to do with "muscle memory".

    Neither does learning a totally different type of unfamiliar camera like a Leica M, which does require practice to handle, but doesn't introduce the type of lag most (if not all) mirror-less cameras have when the objective is precise timing of an unpredictable "decisive moment" opportunity … like the "little girl looking back" shot posted here.

    In an unbroken chain, I've made photos with a Leica M for the past 40+ years, and still use one. I'm fairly sure I have the "muscle memory", and "anticipation" parts of shooting down pat. That doesn't mean I wouldn't select a fast SLR/DSLR Auto-Focus camera for many situations where super swift AF has been coupled with instantaneous capture.

    IMO, the only thing this all proves is that the old saying "Horses For Courses" is still true.

    - Marc
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