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Thread: Interesting about mirrorless

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    Interesting about mirrorless

    Thom Hogan has many viewpoints, and I don't always agree with him, but he presents some sensible thoughts in this article about mirrorless cameras. Well worth reading.

    The Good News, Bad News Mirrorless Problem | Sans Mirror — mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Iím sure that some are going to misinterpret or misquote this article, and accuse me of being a DSLR-apologist or something.
    I have 0 respect for his views especially after the ruckus he created after some so called workshop in South America. He should stick to his guide books for Nikon gear.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    He indeed tends to be unbalanced in his views, but I think he's more careful in this article, maybe because he has criticized Nikon in particular for their model policies the last few years.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Jorgen, With the whole industry in turmoil, it is anyone's guess how things will develop. It is just a matter of finding something that is "comforting" to read to reinforce one's own current views.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Thom Hogan has many viewpoints, and I don't always agree with him, but he presents some sensible thoughts in this article about mirrorless cameras. Well worth reading.

    The Good News, Bad News Mirrorless Problem | Sans Mirror — mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan
    Frankly, while I have no opinion regarding the author one way or the other, in this specific case, I tend to agree with him just based on this considered POV.

    All of my Mirror-less (with EVF) experiences have been a mixed bag.

    I think it is really cool that you can adapt so many optics to the Sony mirror-less cameras, but that is a side novelty for a lot of photography I do for both pay and pleasure. Nothing really new, I also adapted quite a few favored lenses to Canon EOS DSLRs in past: Leica R, Contax C/Y, AF Contax N.

    While small is cool, it amazes me that reduction didn't lead to simplicity and elegance. In Sony's case the camera's have become incredibly complex sporting a dog's breakfast menu. With the A7R they provided a massive FF meg count, then massaged the RAW file poorly, and put a shutter in it that rivals a MF mirror flap to further negate the massive meg count.

    The faster prime lenses everyone wants/needs have been slow coming and turn out to be gigantic. As they have added some features like IBIS, the A7 cameras are getting bigger. I do not know how the later A cameras work, but the lag of the A7R is a real drag ... Decisive Moment photography requires shooting before the moment even happens.

    For me, the bloom is off the rose with Mirror-less. If I had the time and resources to dedicate myself to yet another gear debacle, I'd just get a D810 and a few nice primes.

    - Marc
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    There is a big chunk of photographers who would never ever go back to DSLRs, come what may. D81000, etc have absolutely no chance among them.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There is a big chunk of photographers who would never ever go back to DSLRs, come what may. D81000, etc have absolutely no chance among them.
    That was what I thought too, about myself.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Well, I have my reasons (only applies to me).

    My passion lies in UV photography. Live view (with an EVF) is a must for this. All the struggles of blind shooting with DSLRs are well behind me.

    The next is street photography. Compactness (yes, I have compact lenses that perform) is key. I do not have any problems with shutter lag. There are even very refreshing choices with completely silent shooting possibilities.

    It has never been better as it is now with the mirrorless cams. I am enjoying it.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There is a big chunk of photographers who would never ever go back to DSLRs, come what may. D81000, etc have absolutely no chance among them.
    "Big Chunk" is a relative term. Not many cameras are selling in big chucks no matter what kind they are.

    The only Big Chunk in photography today is Smart Phones and Go Pros.

    Don't care what others do or don't do ... if they don't get the mirror-less stuff to perform on par with the DSLRs for certain applications, I'll switch back in a New York heart beat.

    BTW, I know a "Big Chunk" of photographers that are coming to the same conclusion.

    So it's my Big Chunk verses your Big Chunk ... both of which are anecdotal evidence at best


    - Marc

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    So it's my Big Chunk verses your Big Chunk ... both of which are anecdotal evidence at best


    - Marc
    Yes. You still are not buying that clunky D81000 you seem charmed with.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes. You still are not buying that clunky D81000 you seem charmed with.
    Sorry, I don't know what a D81000 is.

    "Clunky" is also a relative term ...

    The only "Clunky" I've experienced of late is the Mamiya RZ style shutter slap of the A7R ... who's theme line should have been: " Now you don't need a big Medium Format camera to sound like you're using one,"

    Then there's the Clunky Sony menu set-up, and the new Clunky FE AF primes , and the Clunky EVF lag and smearing in lower light.

    Sony's Cornucopia is spilling out a cavalcade of "almost" cameras designed to charm the technophiles into a new camera with every change of underwear.

    IMO, the only camera that's charming is one in the hands of a charming woman.

    - Marc

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Sony's Cornucopia is spilling out a cavalcade of "almost" cameras designed to charm the technophiles into a new camera with every change of underwear.
    Dream on!

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Brand new A7R are down to $1,550 from Hong Kong sellers with free international shipping on eBay now. My local pusher has three second hand ones for sale, from $1,100 to $1,200 (including a 15-20% commission to the shop). Launch price was $2,300 in the US and more here in Thailand. These cameras are hardly more than a year old.

    When I bought my 6 months old D810, I paid 20% below new price at the same shop, and that was considered a low price by all involved.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    I bought a new pair of shoes for 150 Euros at a sale. It has 0 resale value now. Still serves me wonderfully!
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I bought a new pair of shoes for 150 Euros at a sale. It has 0 resale value now. Still serves me wonderfully!
    You should come to Bangkok. Shoes are much cheaper here

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Would love to visit Thailand for photography. Say what, I will bring my D300 and assorted Nikon bits that I failed to sell on time and do not use anymore and they have pretty much no monetary value for a pair of shoes at Bangkok prices.

    A pair of flip-flops will do.

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Flip-flops are pretty universal tools for walking, just like the D300 is for photography. They both have some serious limitations, but the users hardly seem to notice

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    While the author has written of his experiences, his issues and experience is not mine. If you are not alerted to a problem then its not an issue. I worked within the bounds of my A7 and EM5 and adapted to what I was given by the maker.

    I find with all products, its the duty of the user to try to adapt to the item to a certain degree. If you can't or won't, fine, move on.

    All cameras have their pros and cons. Discern between them and choose your instrument but don't compare them.

    I disagree with his idea that DSLR's are the new medium format. I think its the other way around, the mirrorless are.
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Tim, AFAIK he is a professional reviewer of camera gear. I do not think he cares to understand the salient features or the restrictions from an user point of view.

    I agree with your point that the mirrorless are the new medium format.

    Stefan's T/S adapter is an attestment to that!

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Seriously confused. f-number is f-number regardless of format.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    I don't know Thom Hogan, nor have I particularly followed anything he has had to say in past. I just reread this specific "commentary", and found it well balanced ... both in support of "Mirror-less, but also pointing out current shortcomings that potential users of cameras may encounter in the near term.

    What's the harm in that? All it does is inform readers of a perspective that may save them a premature investment into a system that won't meet their specific needs in leu of "buying the system" to find that out.

    I also find the terminology a bit misleading. "Mirror-less" is nothing new ... every Leica M ever made is mirror-less, so are most consumer cameras way back to the Kodak Brownie ... as are all view cameras, tech cameras and MF cameras like the Mamiya and Fuji rangefinders or Hasselblad SWC.

    The revolution revolves around the method of viewing the image from a Mirror-less camera. This is all about OVF making the transition to EVF ... and the elimination of the SLR mirror-box or complex rangefinder method of viewing. Thus the ability to return to smaller cameras verses DSLRs.

    My experiences with mirror-less/evf has been limited to Sony due to a preference for FF. To be clear, I love the notion of "you see what you get" right in the viewfinder.

    Those experiences have also informed me of current limitations for many critical applications ... requiring a DSLR to fill in for those applications. It is those current mirror-less/evf limitations that Mr. Hogan touches upon, and discrediting him personally doesn't alter that.

    - Marc

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Thom Hogan has many viewpoints, and I don't always agree with him, but he presents some sensible thoughts in this article about mirrorless cameras. Well worth reading.

    The Good News, Bad News Mirrorless Problem | Sans Mirror — mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan
    Nipping from the bottom of his article ...
    ..I just donít think mirrorless is the be-all, end-all product that DLSRs had been for so long. Maybe there isnít one any more, and you simply use mirrorless for one set of tasks and DSLRs for another.
    ".. for so long .."? Hmm. Digital SLRs became the center-focus of interchangeable lens, large sensor cameras a scant 11-12 years ago (2003-4) with the introduction of the popularly priced Canon Rebel digital. My memory of cameras goes back beyond that by four decades, and I don't ever recall there being a "be-all, end-all" camera. 35mm SLRs were very versatile and got the majority of the advanced amateur and pro use from the middle '60s to the dawn of the affordable-by-less-than-governments-and-corporations digital era, but were always expensive compared to the vast majority of cameras sold. And, for the the AAs and the PROs, there were always medium format, large format, etc as well. Be-all and end-all is a bit of hyperbole.

    The last sentence is mostly correct, just needs a little elision and addition:

    "You should simply use mirrorless for one set of tasks, RFs for others, and DSLRs for still othersóand other cameras outside of those three for the rest."

    G

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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    DSLRs are not a BAEA solution and never were! The more "serious" they are, the larger, heavier and more visible they tend to become: You choose your compromises and pay your money.
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    DSLRs are not a BAEA solution and never were! The more "serious" they are, the larger, heavier and more visible they tend to become: You choose your compromises and pay your money.
    Most cameras are visible, and few cameras are more visible than a camera phone held at arm's length.

    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: Interesting about mirrorless

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    few cameras are more visible than a camera phone held at arm's length.
    I'd feel conspicuous in 2013's crowd if I weren't holding up a phone or tablet.
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