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Thread: Pro as in Idiot

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Pro as in Idiot

    Apple has launched a new device. It's called Pro. iPad Pro. Fine, I thought, maybe I can use it when I travel, to store, backup and edit photos and video. The professional can edit three 4K video streams simultaneously on this professional device, according to the description of its built-in magic.

    So I read the description... and the technical data... and look at the pictures... they named some communication software after my ex-wife I see. Must be good then

    Hmmm... where to connect the D810. By magic? Oh well, it is a camera that was launched more than a year ago after all. I'll buy some WiFi gadget then, hopefully fast enough to dump a full 64GB card in a couple of minutes... oh, wait... 128GB of memory and no expansion option? Hey, Apple, my RAW files are almost 100MB and I took nearly 90GB of them on my last one week trip to The Philippines. Where do I connect an external disk to this thing? And those 4K video files you're talking about. Has it ever occurred to you thay those files take up a tiny bit more space than the average selfie?

    I'm losing faith, Apple, I'm losing faith. My 15" Retina is a fine machine, except for the price, size and weight. It even doubles as a heating unit on cold, tropical days, and the battery lasts for several hours after a year of everyday use. But please don't add Pro to the name when what you have achieved is just yet another selfie device
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    So your D(inosaur)810 can't do WiFi ? Must be because it's lacking that all important Pro designation.
    No such problems with the A7R2 and its lossy compressed RAWs ...
    Or in hindsight, was that a masterstroke by Sony ?

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    So your D(inosaur)810 can't do WiFi ? Must be because it's lacking that all important Pro designation.
    No such problems with the A7R2 and its lossy compressed RAWs ...
    Or in hindsight, was that a masterstroke by Sony ?

    Kind regards.
    No, it can't, and it's one of the few disadvantages of that camera. Rather difficult to understand too, since other, cheaper Nikon models also released last year do have WiFi. Should I upgrade to a D7200?

    After I wrote the above, I've been doing some research, and found that the coming Surface Pro 4 will probably run so large circles around the iPads and be considerably lighter than my Retina, that my 20 years as an Apple user may come to an end if they don't fix this before my current computing device is up for replacement in a couple of years. Calling what is basically an enlarged selfie device anything Pro, is a powerful negative marketing statement from an organisation that seems to be running out of ideas and that apparently would find it embarrassing to copy their competitor's concept.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    I don't see much need for the iPad pro myself, although as an apple fan boy I'm sure that I'll end up with one! I just wish that there was a MBP Retina tablet with USB3 ports.

    What I really do want though is a fast large tablet with USB 3 support, 16GB ram and long battery life. My SP3 is ok but I really wish that it wasn't limited to 8gb ram - ok for tethering etc but insufficient to make it appealing enough to displace me from traveling with my MBP Retina.
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    What I really do want though is a fast large tablet with USB 3 support, 16GB ram and long battery life.
    I'll second that motion. My 15" Retina MBP goes everywhere with me, and the iPad Mini rarely gets out of the drawer in my desk. Apple gets soooooo close and then they find a way to disappoint. Why call it "Pro" if you can't get stuff into it? And only 128GB? I pass.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    ... and the Surface Pro 4 is rumoured to have 16GB RAM, up to 1TB SSD and a 14" screen. USB 3 is a given. If it comes in under a kilogram and $2,000, Apple has a major problem.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    I'm far from an Apple apologist, but ...

    • The iPad is not intended to be a storage unit for vast volumes of pro-grade DSLR files.
    • You can get WiFi and Lightning connected external drives to expand storage from various vendors. (But why even bother? Just buy and carry a few more 64G SD cards, only upload into the iPad what you want to work on right now.)
    • The Lightning to SD Card Camera Reader can read all your SD/SDHC/SDXC cards, inputting the files (both JPEG and raw).
    • The Lightning to USB Camera Adapter can connect to your camera and do the same job. (It also allows you to connect an iPhone or hard-wired USB keyboard to the iPad.)
    • Not relevant to the D810, but my D750 connects up in a second with the Wireless Mobile Utility app (great name, Nikon! 8^/). Perhaps you should complain about Nikon...?


    I don't think I have a need for the iPad Pro, but the iPad mini 3 is my constant companion. It works beautifully for my on-the-go photo workflow, which does NOT include downloading hundreds of gigabytes of raw files for processing. I use the iPad about 10x as much as I use my desktop computer, and my laptops are provided by/for my work. The iPad replaced my laptop on all non-business travel starting in 2011, and I've never missed the laptop. When I need to do more serious image processing on the road, I bring a MacBook Pro or Air. My late-2011 MacBook Air 13" (all up weight 2 lbs. 4 oz rather than 1 lb 8 oz, and not too much different in terms of carrying inconvenience to an iPad Pro—and it runs Lightroom 6) is still chugging along just fine, having logged 4000+ hours of heavy use since I got it, and still runs over 9 hours on a charge.

    Honestly, if you need a different kind of computer, go for it.
    Why complain when Apple makes a neat product that isn't intended for your needs? Celebrate it, then buy what suits your needs best.

    Surface Pro ... then I have to deal with Windows, which I have no experience with or desire to learn. Not for me. I have better things to do with my limited time.

    G

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    ... lossy compressed RAWs ...
    Oxymoron at best.

    But total marketing BS is more accurate.

    - Leigh

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'm far from an Apple apologist, but ...

    • The iPad is not intended to be a storage unit for vast volumes of pro-grade DSLR files.
    • You can get WiFi and Lightning connected external drives to expand storage from various vendors. (But why even bother? Just buy and carry a few more 64G SD cards, only upload into the iPad what you want to work on right now.)
    • The Lightning to SD Card Camera Reader can read all your SD/SDHC/SDXC cards, inputting the files (both JPEG and raw).
    • The Lightning to USB Camera Adapter can connect to your camera and do the same job. (It also allows you to connect an iPhone or hard-wired USB keyboard to the iPad.)
    • Not relevant to the D810, but my D750 connects up in a second with the Wireless Mobile Utility app (great name, Nikon! 8^/). Perhaps you should complain about Nikon...?


    I don't think I have a need for the iPad Pro, but the iPad mini 3 is my constant companion. It works beautifully for my on-the-go photo workflow, which does NOT include downloading hundreds of gigabytes of raw files for processing. I use the iPad about 10x as much as I use my desktop computer, and my laptops are provided by/for my work. The iPad replaced my laptop on all non-business travel starting in 2011, and I've never missed the laptop. When I need to do more serious image processing on the road, I bring a MacBook Pro or Air. My late-2011 MacBook Air 13" (all up weight 2 lbs. 4 oz rather than 1 lb 8 oz, and not too much different in terms of carrying inconvenience to an iPad Pro—and it runs Lightroom 6) is still chugging along just fine, having logged 4000+ hours of heavy use since I got it, and still runs over 9 hours on a charge.

    Honestly, if you need a different kind of computer, go for it.
    Why complain when Apple makes a neat product that isn't intended for your needs? Celebrate it, then buy what suits your needs best.

    Surface Pro ... then I have to deal with Windows, which I have no experience with or desire to learn. Not for me. I have better things to do with my limited time.

    G
    Yes and no, Godfrey. My worry is when a company that has been making leading edge products for decades start churning out an increasing number of mediocrities. I like Apple and would like to continue using their products, but if MS manages to include the contents of my Retina in an iPad sized device more or less, I get a feeling that they have lost their edge.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    For me, this the same as the bag thread on the Sony section.

    I enjoy it.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Surface Pro ... then I have to deal with Windows, which I have no experience with or desire to learn. Not for me. I have better things to do with my limited time.

    G
    Which is exactly why we'd rather see a MBP Retina tablet that you could actually use for real work rather than a crippled work tool like an iPad.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    From day one Apple has always been concerned that the ipad would cannibalize sales from their laptop line if they allowed the ipad to emulate most of the functions of a laptop. Hense the crippling of functions and lack of certain ports. This decision has worked in their favor so far as many Apple users (even those that aren't power users), still retain both an ipad and Apple laptop.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Full disclosure I'm a hardcore Apple user for my personal computing and this announcement is about as disappointing to me as the transition from IBM PPC processors to the Intel x86 ones (although in fairness software availability/support for none graphics, art, or photography applications is much better with Intel processors.)

    I gotta say I agree wholeheartedly in that the iPad Pro COMPLETELY misses the mark for a "Pro" mobile tablet with the processing power of a laptop/desktop. I honestly wouldn't care if it cannibalized sales of the Macbook Air (frankly I think the standard Macbook has a much better chance of doing this than a iPad Pro ever will) because I don't see myself being in the market for a MBA or cross shopping the two. Perhaps if a "REAL" iPad Pro was made powerful enough it could potentially cannibalize Macbook Pro sales for those that want a tablet form factor of a comparable mobile computer... but then you just price it accordingly between the Macbook and the Macbook Pro.

    I think what MOST people and Apple users have in mind for a iPad Pro is a "Surface Pro type tablet that runs OS X... not iOS." They should just rename this the iPad Plus, as it's a welcomed addition to the iPad family, but "Pro" it is not. Regardless we all know that it will be a huge sales success with minimal R&D/marketing adjustments and thus Apple will feel justified by their decision to essentially put out the same exact product with a newer processor/larger screen that they've produced over the last 6 or 7 years.

    All that said I really can't see myself ever buying a SP3 (or SP4) for myself (my soon to be wife has one that I bought her for her birthday last year so there is technically one in the house) because I REALLY do hate Windows that much (I have to use it at work.) The SP3 is a great device that I would actually love if it was loaded out the box with OS X.
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    So what you're all complaining about is that Apple built a product, named it something that you'd reserved for something else that YOU wanted, and you want to complain about that.

    Hmm. Sounds like what I read from a lot of Leica owners whenever Leica announces a product... =8^o

    G

    "...These are not the 'Droids you're looking for. Move along..."

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    So what you're all complaining about is that Apple built a product, named it something that you'd reserved for something else that YOU wanted, and you want to complain about that.

    Hmm. Sounds like what I read from a lot of Leica owners whenever Leica announces a product... =8^o

    G

    "...These are not the 'Droids you're looking for. Move along..."
    Not really. I complain that Apple tries to give the impression that they've launched a professional tool when what they've developed is just a bigger version of an ordinary tablet computer, in spite of being capable of designing and building a good, powerful devise that many users would die for. I'm in the same boat as HiredArm here. I would hate to go the MS way, but would love a computer similar to the SP 3 (or future SP 4) in size, weight and concept running OS X. If a computer can't run Adobe CC and doesn't have a built in USB 3 socket and as large internal storage as technology allows, it's not on my list.

    The iPad lacks storage and built-in USB and the Retina lacks a SIM card, neither because it isn't possible to include it, but because Apple has decided to cripple their product to increase revenue. I should change to another brand as a matter of principle. Not that I think the others have higher morals, but MS has at least shown us that they are willing to make a product that utilizes technology to its limit.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    I can't say for you, Jorgen.

    I'm completely uninterested in a flat laptop running a desktop OS not designed for that kind of machine. And from the sales figures on the Surface Pro, I'm not overwhelmed that many others are dying for one either.

    All these complaints sound just like what I hear from the Leica lists, "if only they'd done it this way, it would be perfect for me! They didn't, so it must be crap. Leica has lost their way!"

    G
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    So what you're all complaining about is that Apple built a product, named it something that you'd reserved for something else that YOU wanted, and you want to complain about that.

    Hmm. Sounds like what I read from a lot of Leica owners whenever Leica announces a product... =8^o

    G

    "...These are not the 'Droids you're looking for. Move along..."
    It's not that people are complaining so much it is the fact that what Apple has done is make a iPad Plus... Essentially by their own "logic" an iPhone 6/s Plus should actually be marketed as a iPhone 6/s Pro. Seems kind of ridiculous when framed that way and that's why I believe some are reacting the way they are to the announcement - although there are plenty who treat the "one more thing" announcements similar to the coming of Christ.

    I wouldn't write the feedback as merely the standard anti-Apple rhetoric you get every time they release something new or even "new" even if you don't agree with the fact that people are voicing their opinion. I wouldn't just write it off as people "just bickering about getting what few ever asked for" either IMO.

    Leica is somewhat different than Apple although I suspect they model Apple quite a bit often releasing things that no one ever asked for better (like the S) or worse (like the T.) Or in the case of Apple finally releasing iPhones with larger screens and a Stylus... I mean iPencil.
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Leica is somewhat different than Apple although I suspect they model Apple quite a bit often releasing things that no one ever asked for better (like the S) or worse (like the T.) Or in the case of Apple finally releasing iPhones with larger screens and a Stylus... I mean iPencil.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    LOL! If you're going to ridicule the marketing, at least get the marketing names right. That's "Apple Pencil", not iPencil ... rather similar to "Pencil" by 53 (to go along with their Paper and Book products, see http://www.fiftythree.com).

    So the takeaway from your last note is that what you and "all those others who are complaining" (haven't seen very many) are really all upset about is that Apple called the bigger tablet "pro" rather than "plus".

    G

    (BTW, it seems to me that there's a healthy market for iPad-compatible stylus products: There are at least a dozen on the market. It seems to me that this might actually be a product that many people who use the iPad in a professional capacity need or want, it seems many consider the iPad a pretty good tool for drawing, sketching, and illustration. Perhaps that's a clue as to whom Apple is addressing with the name... ;-)

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    As of 2015, it's possible to do all photo-related tasks on a powerful tablet-like device offering massive onboard storage, but the experience may be kind of underwhelming.

    Apple's genius is in making stuff desirable in highly-profitable ways. Which is it's own sort of innovation.

    I think the best non-Apple platform right now may be Chrome: It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it does the important stuff and it does it really well.

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    As of 2015, it's possible to do all photo-related tasks on a powerful tablet-like device offering massive onboard storage, but the experience may be kind of underwhelming.

    Apple's genius is in making stuff desirable in highly-profitable ways. Which is it's own sort of innovation.

    I think the best non-Apple platform right now may be Chrome: It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it does the important stuff and it does it really well.
    I would guess that depends on what you consider "the important stuff." I haven't seen the memo on what that might be yet.

    G

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Well it seems Godfrey is happy with the ipad++ but the rest of us really want a real computer in a tablet format (and remember we're photographers here and hence a skewed demographic).


    Personally, the only machine I've seen that piques my interest is the Cintiq Companion 2 i7/512gb model but it is critically flawed by running windoze which I do truly truly loathe.

    Yes, a surface pro 3/4 hackintosh would make my day and get my spare $$
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Well it seems Godfrey is happy with the ipad++ but the rest of us really want a real computer in a tablet format (and remember we're photographers here and hence a skewed demographic).


    Personally, the only machine I've seen that piques my interest is the Cintiq Companion 2 i7/512gb model but it is critically flawed by running windoze which I do truly truly loathe.

    Yes, a surface pro 3/4 hackintosh would make my day and get my spare $$
    I'm neither happy nor sad about the iPad Pro. It seems a good iPad, regardless of the name, but I prefer a smaller tablet. If I were considering an iPad as a full laptop replacement, I'd have no problem with the Pro, but I have plenty of laptops to suit all my needs.

    I noticed that they obsoleted my iPad mini 3 with a new iPad mini 4. It's a little thinner, has the A8 vs the A7 processor, has an 8Mpixel camera instead of 5Mpixel, and an updated Bluetooth chipset. Modest changes, no real need to upgrade my mini 3 for the present.

    What is a "real computer"?
    I don't seem to have any difficulty doing the work I want to do with the iPad mini 3 and iPhone 6, including some of my photography.

    G

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Wise man once said something about desire being the root of suffering or at least shopper's angst I'll leave that Wacom device to people who have an immediate need for such a thing.

    I'm still pretty happy with my 2nd generation iPad Mini (even if I don't use it for photo editing).

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! If you're going to ridicule the marketing, at least get the marketing names right. That's "Apple Pencil", not iPencil ... rather similar to "Pencil" by 53 (to go along with their Paper and Book products, see http://www.fiftythree.com).

    So the takeaway from your last note is that what you and "all those others who are complaining" (haven't seen very many) are really all upset about is that Apple called the bigger tablet "pro" rather than "plus".

    G

    (BTW, it seems to me that there's a healthy market for iPad-compatible stylus products: There are at least a dozen on the market. It seems to me that this might actually be a product that many people who use the iPad in a professional capacity need or want, it seems many consider the iPad a pretty good tool for drawing, sketching, and illustration. Perhaps that's a clue as to whom Apple is addressing with the name... ;-)
    I think you're misunderstanding the perspective of many and being an Apple apologist in the process.

    I don't have a problem with the marketing per se or the stylus at all. I actually own a Wacom stylus already specifically for Paper by FiftyThree for the last 3 years or so. I have no issue with people using an iPad professionally but a "Pro" designation would suggest a different class of tablet than an iPad... Something that the Surface Pro models provides.
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding the perspective of many and being an Apple apologist in the process.

    I don't have a problem with the marketing per se or the stylus at all. I actually own a Wacom stylus already specifically for Paper by FiftyThree for the last 3 years or so. I have no issue with people using an iPad professionally but a "Pro" designation would suggest a different class of tablet than an iPad... Something that the Surface Pro models provides.
    As I said: "So the takeaway from your last note is that what you and "all those others who are complaining" (haven't seen very many) are really all upset about is that Apple called the bigger tablet "pro" rather than "plus". "

    I would have named it "iPad grande" myself, in keeping with the "iPad mini" naming, but they don't listen to me. :-)

    G

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    As I said: "So the takeaway from your last note is that what you and "all those others who are complaining" (haven't seen very many) are really all upset about is that Apple called the bigger tablet "pro" rather than "plus". "

    I would have named it "iPad grande" myself, in keeping with the "iPad mini" naming, but they don't listen to me. :-)

    G
    Thank God Apple didn't do that... I know they have a habit of attracting the "Ugg boot" crowd in the fall much like Starbucks does with Pumkin Spiced flavored drinks that have no business being Pumpkin spiced but thankfully they didn't call it the iPad Grande, Venti, or Trenti...

    Well back to enjoying my iPhone 6s Pro... I mean Plus... I get so confused about what's "pro" these days.
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Thank God Apple didn't do that... I know they have a habit of attracting the "Ugg boot" crowd in the fall much like Starbucks does with Pumkin Spiced flavored drinks that have no business being Pumpkin spiced but thankfully they didn't call it the iPad Grande, Venti, or Trenti...

    Well back to enjoying my iPhone 6s Pro... I mean Plus... I get so confused about what's "pro" these days.
    What's an "Ugg boot"? Never heard of that. (Yeah, I could google it, if I was interested enough. ;-)

    IMO, naming anything "Pro" these days is just empty air ... Just like the use of the term "Macro" on horrible zoom lenses that can't touch doing anything remotely related to macrophotography in any sensible way, or using "Limited" on a Buick that is one of half a million made. It's simply not descriptive of anything or means anything other than "this is a different model from the one named without the 'Pro' on the end of the name."

    Of course, I'm not in charge of these things... I wouldn't have named it iPad in the first place!

    G

  29. #29
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    remember the flap over confusing the I-pad mini with the mini-pad

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Thank God Apple didn't do that... I know they have a habit of attracting the "Ugg boot" crowd in the fall much like Starbucks does with Pumkin Spiced flavored drinks that have no business being Pumpkin spiced but thankfully they didn't call it the iPad Grande, Venti, or Trenti...

    Well back to enjoying my iPhone 6s Pro... I mean Plus... I get so confused about what's "pro" these days.
    When "pumpkin" tastes too sweet and smells like cinnamon, it makes no difference as to to how it is called. Horrible concoction.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  31. #31
    Senior Member JoelM's Avatar
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    IMO, naming anything "Pro" these days is just empty air ...

    G
    Well, I think that Provolone stands up to its name. As for Antipasto, I'm not sure. I have nothing against pasto.



    Joel

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by JoelM View Post
    Well, I think that Provolone stands up to its name. As for Antipasto, I'm not sure. I have nothing against pasto.
    Hmm. I'm not sure I've ever tasted Volone. ;-)

    G

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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Jorgen, you're holding it wrong.

    Seriously though - Apple must be at least thinking about a Surface Pro competitor running OSX. Adapting OSX to touch would be a momentous task though (ask Microsoft) so I can see how they are avoiding going there. Adding iOS app support to OSX makes more sense.

    Perhaps an ARM on steroid? Forget thin and light, make an iPad for Jorgen? Probably not enough market, plus it might be seen as a failed attempt at matching the performance of a SP3(4).

    What remains is making an x86 version of iOS then, to run on an x86 iPad Pro Plus, and port all iOS apps. Doable but costly and risky (again, ask the guys in Redmond).

    I'm sure sooner or later Apple will choose one of the paths above. I'd guess within the next 24 months we'll see some variation of high performance Apple product with a touch screen. But I did say that ten years ago as well.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Pro as in Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen, you're holding it wrong.

    Seriously though - Apple must be at least thinking about a Surface Pro competitor running OSX. Adapting OSX to touch would be a momentous task though (ask Microsoft) so I can see how they are avoiding going there. Adding iOS app support to OSX makes more sense.

    Perhaps an ARM on steroid? Forget thin and light, make an iPad for Jorgen? Probably not enough market, plus it might be seen as a failed attempt at matching the performance of a SP3(4).

    What remains is making an x86 version of iOS then, to run on an x86 iPad Pro Plus, and port all iOS apps. Doable but costly and risky (again, ask the guys in Redmond).

    I'm sure sooner or later Apple will choose one of the paths above. I'd guess within the next 24 months we'll see some variation of high performance Apple product with a touch screen. But I did say that ten years ago as well.
    Ironically, the MS Lumia 950 XL (yes, that's a telephone) seems to be more "pro" than the iPad Pro:

    - Support for micro SD card up to 2TB (only 200GB available at the moment)
    - Replaceable battery
    - Can connect to keyboard, mouse and large monitor

    The only thing missing is the ability to run Photoshop CC.

    I had a look at the Surface 3 the other day, a device that is much cheaper than the Apple, but does run a full version of Windows 10, and thereby Photoshop etc., has a full size USB 3 contact, micro SD and so on. It doesn't look as elegant as the iPad, but why would I care? The Surface is high on my shopping list now.

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