The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Stuff that lasts and stuff that doesn't

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Now and then I whine and complain about stuff that isn't as good as it used to be in the "good old days". However, a recent experience has taught me that as camera users, we are rather lucky. Our gear doesn't break particularly often, and when it does, it can mostly be repaired. Some of our cameras can even withstand rain, dust and physical abuse without giving up. Even the Applebook I use for editing my images can be fixed when it develops a problem, although at an exorbitant price. I hope this will last, but that is not necessarily a given. Here's the story:

Back in the day, I used to be a kind of "semi-audiophile". I knew about the good stuff, but didn't want to spend the money needed to buy it, so I ended up buying "middle of the road" solutions that have served me well over the years. That includes my Technics CA1080 semi-compact system that has been with me for around 20 years and that, in spite of being more or less a museum piece nowadays, continues to output very good sound.

Due to extended travelling, much of my listening is now relegated to airports, hotel rooms and airplanes. So, 18 months ago, while spending quality time at Suvarnabhumi Airport in Bangkok, I looked through the selection of headphones to find something suitable for my needs. I ended up buying the JBL E50BT since it:

- Seemed to play the music I had available in a way that sounded pleasant to me.
- Was sold at a price of less than $200, dirt cheap for an audiophile but relatively expensive for the average listener.
- Came in a cool red colour that I felt would undoubtedly add to the coolness of the wearer :cool:
- Back in the day, JBL was kind of high end, so I assumed they would last for a while.

Big was my surprise then when one year later, during an 11 hour flight to Norway, without any warning, the sound disappeared completely from the right channel. I tried cable, Bluetooth, standing on my head, shaking my legs, but no; there was nothing, zero, zilch, nil :cussing:

While in Norway, I found a none-solution, a pair a AKG K550 that sounds like heaven but that for many reasons are rather unsuitable for travel. I was planning to get the JBL cans fixed upon my arrival in Bangkok anyway, so problem kind of solved.

Like so many things in life, finding a place to get them fixed wasn't as easy as I thought, and my attempts at solving the problem came at relatively long intervals too. Few shops are willing to discuss fixing a product that's been bought somewhere else, particularly when somewhere else is the duty-free shop at an airport. An email to the local distributor didn't result in anything either.

This week however, almost 6 months after the problem arose, I found that Harman Group, of which JBL is a part, has a customer support page for each product. From reading that page, I also found that the problem that I had experienced wasn't uncommon. Rather the opposite actually. Several users had experienced it. I was advised to send an email to international support, which I did, and they advised me to send an email to a person at the office of the local distributor, which I also did.

Here's the answer that I received from them:
"Kindly inform you that most of JBL or Harman multi-media products are usually non-repairable and are replaced on a one-to-one basis during warranty.

If you would like to check that we can repair or not, kindly please send the unit to our service center as address below."


What it basically says is that most JBL or Harman multi-media products are disposables. If it's broken, you dump it and buy a new one. Or they dump it and send you a new one if it's under warranty. Apart from the environmental side of this, which is more than worrying in itself, this kind of product philosophy crushes any advantage of buying a reasonably priced or even cheap product. I'm also sure that this is an increasing trend by manufacturers of consumer products. It's not the first time I experience something like this. It is however the first time I've seen it expressed as clearly as this and in writing.

And for the user, it's completely counterproductive. If headphones cost $150 and last for an average of 2 years, they will cost me $1,500 over 20 years. That means that I can pay $1,500 for a better set and get better quality sound and avoid the hassle of:

a) Spend a major part of a flight every second year or so without music.
b) Spend time in shops trying to find a new one that is to my satisfaction.
c) Contribute to the increasing mountain of electronic trash that makes our globe and the creatures living on it drown in garbage.

Again, as camera users, we are rather lucky... still. This also makes me appreciate "conservative" camera companies like Leica, Nikon etc., companies that make products designed to last and designed to be repaired in the event of a failure. So if in the future you see me wearing a pair of Grado headphones and with a Leica in my hand, you now know why.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
When conservative becomes synonymous with archaic (coupled with flat denial of any responsibility for as long as they can), it is time to move on.
 

Jan

Member
These days tech products are designed to last max 3 years. The irony with software-abled devices is that after two year the latest OS can no longer be installed, forcing the customer to upgrade anyway.

Digital cameras last longer but with specs constantly upgrading it has become a rat race. I remember discussing a compact camera with a full frame sensor 5 years ago and I was called a nutcase, but eventually it was Sony who built one and now has the 2nd generation on the market. Well, we already had the technology back than but manufacturers are not interested to sell us the end game since that will instantly take them out of business.

Look at the latest M10. Great camera, for sure. But why now only 'without video' and 'high ISO' capabilities? For sure it was possible in the 240 model. But the answer is, to sell of course.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
none are trustworthy. They never said anything about design flaws.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Agree with Vivek on this one.
One even clearly mentioned that he would
report flaws to Leica only.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
But a Leica can be repaired, as can my old Nikon cameras, and spare parts are mostly available.

Last year, I toyed with the thought of buying a proper watch, a mechanical one of a reputable Swiss brand. I mentioned it to a couple of friends:

- Why? They said.
- Because it will last a lifetime.
- Why would you want a watch that will last a lifetime?

When I was a kid, people still bought watches that they hoped would last a lifetime, watches that could be cleaned and repaired and that would hardly ever wear out. People inherited watches from their fathers and grandfathers. What a dramatic change in attitude. Who decided that I shouldn't want something that lasts?

I ended up getting a watch for my birthday. It's a cool piece of kit, waterproof and all. It tells me that I should sit less and exercise more, and it measures how much I exercise and how fast I run. Also, the rubber strap that doesn't look like it can be replaced is showing its "age". While the watch itself might last a few years if it stays waterproof, the strap clearly won't. I checked the price, and I can buy something like 15 of these plastic gadgets for the price of the Swiss titanium watch which will only show the time. However, I know that I sit too much and exercise too little, so the Swiss beauty would really have told me what I need to know from a watch. My grandchildren could have inherited it too.

Next year maybe, a day I feel rich, and after the rubber strap snaps.

I had another email from the JBL/Harman distributor. Several emails actually. Now they insist on fixing my headphones. Must have been something I said :rolleyes:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
My camera gear today is the best gear I've ever had.
It may not last 20 years .. but then, I may not either. :toocool:

G
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
My camera gear today is the best gear I've ever had.
It may not last 20 years .. but then, I may not either. :toocool:

G
Yes, camera users are luckily exempted from this development, at least so far, unless we choose to always buy the latest, greatest. Still, the value of used cameras is deteriorating much faster than before, often 50% the first year. Car owners too. The 10 year old Toyota that I drive, with almost 200,000 km on its wheels is easily capable of another 200,000 and then probably 200,000 more. 50 years ago, a car that had rolled 200,000 km was mostly ready for the scrapyard, unless it was a Volvo, a Beetle or a Mercedes Benz.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
none are trustworthy. They never said anything about design flaws.
I wouldn't say none are trustworthy but I will say that I would not promote a product that I didn't feel was a quality product. As for only reporting issues to a manufacturer - I understand and agree with that when testing pre-production cameras. If it's a consumer sample though I see no issue in being critical of design flaws or listing desired improvements.
 

4season

Well-known member
This must be close to 55 years old, and I just repainted and overhauled it (new lubes, new shutter curtains, etc):

Ready for the next half-century?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Yes, camera users are luckily exempted from this development, at least so far, unless we choose to always buy the latest, greatest. Still, the value of used cameras is deteriorating much faster than before, often 50% the first year. Car owners too. The 10 year old Toyota that I drive, with almost 200,000 km on its wheels is easily capable of another 200,000 and then probably 200,000 more. 50 years ago, a car that had rolled 200,000 km was mostly ready for the scrapyard, unless it was a Volvo, a Beetle or a Mercedes Benz.
I'm not entirely sure I know what you're driving at, Jorgen. Why is any of that relevant to anything? Or to my comment ...?

You are complaining that a set of (by your own statement) inexpensive headphones failed and extrapolating that everything in the world is going to crap because you can't buy a set of crap headphones and have them work flawlessly.

Well, you never could. Buy quality, respect it as something of quality, and you get quality for a long time. Buy junk and its value will be short-lived. Buy good stuff and treat it like junk and it will be junk very quickly. These notions have always been true.

I do not understand what you're complaining about. It remains a mystery to me.

G
 

Jan

Member
none are trustworthy. They never said anything about design flaws.
No worries, I did not mention how far my trust is reaching. Usually not much further than the front porch. Having that said, it is not nice to say something about someone if he/she ain't in the same kitchen.
 

4season

Well-known member
Not going to use this discussion as an excuse for buying an expensive new toy ;) Maybe better to invest in experiences if it's long-lasting enjoyment you seek.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I'm not entirely sure I know what you're driving at, Jorgen. Why is any of that relevant to anything? Or to my comment ...?

You are complaining that a set of (by your own statement) inexpensive headphones failed and extrapolating that everything in the world is going to crap because you can't buy a set of crap headphones and have them work flawlessly.

Well, you never could. Buy quality, respect it as something of quality, and you get quality for a long time. Buy junk and its value will be short-lived. Buy good stuff and treat it like junk and it will be junk very quickly. These notions have always been true.

I do not understand what you're complaining about. It remains a mystery to me.

G
It's more of an observation than a complaint, but it's also a worry. It's about attitudes and what influences our attitudes. Back in the day, most people bought the best products they could afford, but even lower priced products were supposed to last for years. The price difference was as much a result of a difference in features and design as it was of a difference in build quality and life expectancy. Not so anymore. You often get more features with cheap products, but the build quality is crap, and if it breaks, it cannot be repaired. So those who can't afford to buy a quality product will have to buy the same thing repeatedly, and in the long run spend more than those who can afford the quality product.

In third world countries, where the number of poor people is enormous compared to western countries, this is even more visible. Take toys for instance. Most people buy toys at the local market or at 7 Eleven (there are 10 or 12,000 7 Eleven shops in Thailand plus numerous similar shops of other brands). They are cheap, like a couple of dollars, and will mostly last half an hour in the hands of a girl and 10 minutes in the hands of a boy. They are made to break, and the next day, there will be a demand for another toy. Since the consumers have little choice, this is what they buy, and the children learn that stuff is not built to last. Expect to buy a new one tomorrow or next week.

So they learn to spend money instead stead of learning how to save or to invest. When they grow older, they will do the same thing, and they will stay poor forever, since the crap they buy will never last and there is always some broken product that needs replacement and they think this is the way it's supposed to be since nobody has told them otherwise.

When we hear about increased buying power in third world countries, this is where much of the buying power goes.

As for me, since I live in a third world country, I'm more or less exposed to the same. I earn more than the average local guy, but just a fraction of what you earn in the west, and stuff is often more expensive here than in Europe and the USA. So I buy a pair of JBL headphones because I remember it as a quality brand from my youth. But somebody bought the brand and printed the logo on low quality products. So I won't buy a JBL product again, and I won't buy a AKG, Harman & Kardon, Infinity, Lexicon, Mark Levinson or Revel product, since they are all part of the Harman Group.

For me, this is easy, since I can afford to choose. But many people can't. For many people in this world, JBL is the best they can afford to buy, and since it's a famous brand with a cool design that scores well in tests, they will buy it. And next year, when it breaks, they will buy another brand, like AKG, because they don't know that it comes from the same source. And if they break as well....

I don't like this.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
I buy quality, or what has gained a reputation for quality. If I can afford it. Else do without it.

I buy quality and treat it like s***. If it hold up, that is quality.

Take my family car e.g a Toyota Land Cruiser. 52c in summer. Asphalt melts on the roads. Dust...gets into every single orfice of man and machine. Paint starts to peel. Seats, leather tears. Fabric vanishes. Dashboard plastics just distort. This is in the city.

Gravel, rock,mud, sand and more sand. Over 50 years the land cruisers have functioned here. Just normal maintenance. That, to me is quality made for this terrain.

I bought Mercedes ML. First month The a/c stopped working. The engine overheated. I do drive a SL. Just to take Ayesha to some boutique store.

Give me my Toyota LC.. I drive across the Gulf countries.
And of course, a desert nomad along the way has the parts and skill to fix it.

p.s. I had a D200 give up on me in the sand. The D700 has traveled the desert and the Arctic. Still going strong...just taking a well earned break.

The leicas...take them when the weather is nice.

The Fuji..it is going to be subject to hell shortly.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
In third world countries, where the number of poor people is enormous compared
So they learn to spend money instead stead of learning how to save or to invest. When they grow older, they will do the same thing, and they will stay poor forever, since the crap they buy will never last and there is always some broken product that needs replacement and they think this is the way it's supposed to be since nobody has told them otherwise.
.
I think you probably have little understanding of your current surroundings, culture, history and the way of living despite the number of years you have spent there.

No one can (even in the west) match the frugality of some of the Nordic folks (that trait coming from their own long history of hardship). But, that may not help in everything in life.

No one has a permanent hold on wealth. It is transient.
 

4season

Well-known member
I think I've shared the link to this book previously but it's still a good one:
http://www.shambhala.com/hooked.html

One of the essays asserted that, as part of a drive to modernize it's economy, the Thai government once tried to discourage buddhist opinion leaders from discussing the value of contentment! It seems that people who are content with their lives are less inclined to fill it with all manner of "Stuff". And in a modern western-style economy, it's supposed to be everyone's duty to consume Stuff in order that our economies might experience never-ending growth.

David Hylinsky really did capture something of another world:
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/david-hlynsky-window-shopping-through-the-iron-curtain/#slide-12

I've been satisfying some of my own consumerist urges by purchasing and polishing some of the cast-offs from the FSU
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Planned obsolescence is one of the fundamental drivers of the world economy. I've posted before about an excellent film about the "Light bulb conspiracy" - starting with the Phoebus Cartel who worked to irradiate long lasting light bulbs, through to modern consumer electronics and goods that are designed to fail or even stop working by design (Epson printers failing when page print count reaches a threshold) etc etc.

My own personal pet peeve obsolescence item is my 2008 eight core Mac Pro that Apple essentially locked out of any future OS X upgrades beyond 10.8 due to the 64 bit boot loader and lack of support with current device drivers for video cards, RAID cards and other components. It's still a great machine but less and less software vendors are supporting OS revisions back 3-4 versions so it forces customers to upgrade regardless of whether the machine works well or not.
 
Top