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Thread: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

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    When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.


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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Unfortunately, there are people who think they are above all this, and who think that they'll do just fine as long as they have enough money and weapons.

    Unfortunately also, every new camera that I buy ads to this a tiny little bit, and when you multiply a tiny little bit with a few billions, it becomes not so tiny anymore

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Pretty much every time I have to go to Phoenix AZ I am reminded that parts of the planet are already too hot for humans.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    'The ecology of humanity has been noted as being that of an unprecedented global predator'.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi View Post
    'The ecology of humanity has been noted as being that of an unprecedented global predator'.
    Hmm, during the Wisconsin glaciation, there was an ice sheet over a mile thick all the way down to NYC, but then global warming ten thousand years ago started to melt the ice sheet long before human predation on the environment. While we certainly need to be more aware of our impact on how are cheap goods are produced. We need to change the mindset of this throwaway society. Let's start here. Camera makers are at the forefront of waste and energy with their planned obsolescence and continuous upgrade paths. Want to make a difference? Then stop buying into these ridiculously short cycles and demand better environmental practices or just keep your 60MP cameras and slum it. And don't get me started on the bane of plastic and styrofoam.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Lets see:

    We are changing the atmospheric and ocean chemistry at a at an unprecedented rate.

    Plastic and other human chemicals are found in every environment around the globe

    We are seeing the signs of a mass extinction event, with animals like our pollinators (bees, etc) dying off

    Our agriculture is purely dependent on chemicals

    The world’s fish stocks went from 62% fully fished and overfished in 1974 to 90% in 2013

    In spite of the Atlantic cod moratorium put in place in the 1990s, the cod stocks in the Gulf of Maine have not rebounded become that body of water is warming faster than 98% of the world's oceans.

    There are about 7 billion people on the planet

    The largest economy in the world is run by an administration and political party that is anti-science and believe that environmental policy is a "socialist"* plot.

    What could possible go wrong?

    * Definition: Un-American (because very few in America understand what socialism actually is, even though socialist policies in the US have actually had very successful outcomes).

    PS, if you think this is a political post, you are not paying attention. The greatest progress in history has always been a result of evidence-based reasoning. It has also alway been a result of a plurality of fields and disciplines. Very little good has come from simple populous ideological dogma--we have lots of evidence of that in history. The problem is that the world is complex and does not lend itself to catchy soundbites. People need to learn to deal with ambiguity and uncertainty (although there is no ambiguity to what we are doing to our climate).
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Hmm, during the Wisconsin glaciation, there was an ice sheet over a mile thick all the way down to NYC, but then global warming ten thousand years ago started to melt the ice sheet long before human predation on the environment.
    If this is the argument that climate has always changed so therefore the current changes are simply natural, it is an flawed argument. That would be like saying the modern medicine and hygiene have no impact on life expectancy because people have always died, sometimes later, sometimes earlier.

    The climate science is well beyond that simple argument. There is no doubt that humans are changing our climate. Which is a good thing, because if the temperature of the climate is starting to increase at this historically fast rate (faster than any period before it) and if it is the debunked idea that it is solar output, then what is causing the sun to have a run-away reaction? Easier to control our emissions than to change the behavior of a star. Fortunately, we are going through one of the most stable periods of solar output. Solar radiation does contribute to climate, but cannot be the cause of the modern warming trend because it is not increasing with the warming trend.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    That would be like saying the modern medicine and hygiene have no impact on life expectancy because people have always died, sometimes later, sometimes earlier.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Eat like the Vietnamese do? Rice, vegetables, minimal dairy, not too much beef, and what you do see was probably allowed to forage in the fields rather than being fattened on grain. Farting cows + deforestation are a major source of greenhouse gas, bigger than automobiles IIRC.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Lets see:

    We are changing the atmospheric and ocean chemistry at a at an unprecedented rate.

    Plastic and other human chemicals are found in every environment around the globe

    We are seeing the signs of a mass extinction event, with animals like our pollinators (bees, etc) dying off

    Our agriculture is purely dependent on chemicals

    The world’s fish stocks went from 62% fully fished and overfished in 1974 to 90% in 2013

    In spite of the Atlantic cod moratorium put in place in the 1990s, the cod stocks in the Gulf of Maine have not rebounded become that body of water is warming faster than 98% of the world's oceans.

    There are about 7 billion people on the planet

    The largest economy in the world is run by an administration and political party that is anti-science and believe that environmental policy is a "socialist"* plot.

    What could possible go wrong?

    * Definition: Un-American (because very few in America understand what socialism actually is, even though socialist policies in the US have actually had very successful outcomes).

    PS, if you think this is a political post, you are not paying attention. The greatest progress in history has always been a result of evidence-based reasoning. It has also alway been a result of a plurality of fields and disciplines. Very little good has come from simple populous ideological dogma--we have lots of evidence of that in history. The problem is that the world is complex and does not lend itself to catchy soundbites. People need to learn to deal with ambiguity and uncertainty (although there is no ambiguity to what we are doing to our climate).
    I wonder where your "facts" come from.
    PS: note the lack of ? mark.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I wonder where your "facts" come from.
    PS: note the lack of ? mark.
    Seriously? You need to watch Netflix 'Chasing Coral' and wonder where 30% of the barrier reef went last year ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    On the Validity of NOAA, NASA and Hadley CRU Global Average Surface Temperature Data & The Validity of EPA’s CO2 Endangerment Finding

    Abridged Research Report

    https://thsresearch.files.wordpress....ort-062717.pdf
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Seriously? You need to watch Netflix 'Chasing Coral' and wonder where 30% of the barrier reef went last year ...
    The problem is Graham is "scientists" have been caught lying and falsifying data. Tell me who is not lying and prove they are not ? The "science" is tied to money.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I wonder where your "facts" come from.
    PS: note the lack of ? mark.
    The fish stock data come from the UN Fish and Agriculture Organization (FAO) 2016 report on the world's fisheries. The Atlantic cod study was published in Science. The rest have lots of studies backing them up--none of that should surprise anyone. But maybe that is because I work closely with those fields. Actually, if you want some really interesting data, go to the FAOSTAT site. I could have pointed you to some interesting climate data on the EPA site including the acidification of the ocean off Hawaii, but the current administration has wiped that.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    The problem is Graham is "scientists" have been caught lying and falsifying data. Tell me who is not lying and prove they are not ? The "science" is tied to money.
    I would like to see your "facts." You don't understand how science works either. If only science funding was a fraction of oil profits...

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    On the Validity of NOAA, NASA and Hadley CRU Global Average Surface Temperature Data & The Validity of EPA’s CO2 Endangerment Finding

    Abridged Research Report

    https://thsresearch.files.wordpress....ort-062717.pdf
    Fake news--sad!
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Oh?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The fish stock data come from the UN Fish and Agriculture Organization (FAO) 2016 report on the world's fisheries. The Atlantic cod study was published in Science. The rest have lots of studies backing them up--none of that should surprise anyone. But maybe that is because I work closely with those fields. Actually, if you want some really interesting data, go to the FAOSTAT site. I could have pointed you to some interesting climate data on the EPA site including the acidification of the ocean off Hawaii, but the current administration has wiped that.
    I work with the fishing industry, so the lack of fish directly affects my job. In the Andaman Sea (between India, Bangladesh, Myanmar and Thailand) the fish stocks in large areas, and all of the areas within Myanmar's jurisdiction, have gone down by at least 90% between the seventies, when the Norwegian Institute of Marine Research started their research, and 2015, when they did their latest visit.

    Yellowfin and bluefin tuna is reduced by 90% also during the last few decades. Still fisheries are ongoing during the spawning season at the spawning areas, in Japan among other places. How can they do that? Because the restrictions are only on juveniles, not on adult fish. Sawing off the branch they are sitting on? Yes, obviously.

    But those are only parts of an ongoing trend. The reality is that any animal that is not a part of the human diet is in danger of becoming extinct. Here's the picture, the world's biomass. It's rather easy to understand:



    http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...on/blog/53729/

    In addition to this comes global warming. I'm not a climate scientists, but I can see from photos that glaciers and Arctic ice melts. I can also see the coastal erosion here in Thailand. It's also very easy to understand the charts that show how human technological development, measurable CO2 emissions and global temperatures follow each other like shadows. And even if the charts and the scientists behind them for some reason are wrong, there's no reason not to take action. Environmental pollution has so many negative effects directly affecting the well being of all life on the planet that we should do anything we can to avoid it. Millions of people die from it every year.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Seriously?! Look up the history of Lead Tetraethyl (lead in gasoline) and see who was on the right side. This is one prime example how money calls the shots and it is always the profit oriented business and not the science/ scientists that mess up things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    The problem is Graham is "scientists" have been caught lying and falsifying data. Tell me who is not lying and prove they are not ? The "science" is tied to money.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Oh?
    It is a political document trying to cast doubt on the EPA CO2 Endangerment Findings that were upheld in Mass vs. the EPA requiring the EPA to regulate greenhouse gasses under the Clear Air Act. This report has already been debunked, but the key conclusion that should raise a red flag is this:

    The conclusive findings of this research are that the three GAST data sets are not a valid representation of reality.
    What "reality" are they referring to?

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Seriously?! Look up the history of Lead Tetraethyl (lead in gasoline) and see who was on the right side. This is one prime example how money calls the shots and it is always the profit oriented business and not the science/ scientists that mess up things.
    You can also add DDT and smoking. The climate change denier argument is taking the same strategy. Cast doubt and confusion, because that is easier than evidence (because there is no evidence). Bring in false economic arguments like being a "job killer"--new technology and industries tend to be a driver of economic growth.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    And to piggy back on Jorgen's comments on fisheries, it is also changing fish distribution which impacts catch effort.



    The thing that really bugs me is that we are already seeing the effects of climate change. It is having real effects on communities. But the anti-climate and anti-science folks are just on some ideological crusade and are not thinking about the people that this is impacting.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Of course, the list is endless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You can also add DDT and smoking. The climate change denier argument is taking the same strategy. Cast doubt and confusion, because that is easier than evidence (because there is no evidence). Bring in false economic arguments like being a "job killer"--new technology and industries tend to be a driver of economic growth.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    D'you remember the scene in The Graduate (1967) where Mr Maguire takes Benjamin to one side and says,
    "One word, Ben, Plastics, there's gonna be a great future in Plastics."

    By 2050 there will be more plastic in the sea, by weight, than fish.

    Then we can start eating the goldfish in the dentist waiting room.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Welcome to the Soylent Green future?

    To me, it seems that awareness of the dangers of greenhouse gas emissions simply came too late. It's not clear to me that immediate and drastic reductions in same would have spared us, and wow, what immediate turmoil it would have caused as entire sectors of the world's economies suddenly shrank or vanished altogether.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    A weird side of the situation is that while new technology has mostly brought the human civilization forward and created work opportunities and a higher standard of living, many of those opposed to sustainable energy production claim that the opposite is the case when it comes to clean energy. It isn't of course, and the countries who produce solar panels, wind generators etc., have managed to establish a totally new industry that is growing every year, creating more work not less and cheaper energy as well, which makes other industries too more profitable.

    Admittedly, wind and solar farms have been heavily subsidised, particularly in the beginning. But in reality, the lack of taxation of "dirty energy" to compensate for the damage done by coal and oil power plants is a subsidy too, one that can hardly be quantified, considering the enormous damage that has been done by those industries.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    I'm surrounded by 'clean' energy - solar, wind and hydro. The only sources I see that can work at scale and indefinitely are still nuclear and thermal. Since I don't live in Iceland here in the PNW it means that it is probably nuclear.

    Wind is ok in theory but if you've ever seen hundreds of square miles covered in windmills that nobody cares about as they age you'd have a different view of many green energy programs. Hydro for us is an ecological disaster. Solar has untold horrible effects on flora, fauna, birds and wildlife in general.

    Ultimately we still need to conserve as well as work towards reducing polluting energy sources. Not a simple problem.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'm surrounded by 'clean' energy - solar, wind and hydro. The only sources I see that can work at scale and indefinitely are still nuclear and thermal. Since I don't live in Iceland here in the PNW it means that it is probably nuclear.

    Wind is ok in theory but if you've ever seen hundreds of square miles covered in windmills that nobody cares about as they age you'd have a different view of many green energy programs. Hydro for us is an ecological disaster. Solar has untold horrible effects on flora, fauna, birds and wildlife in general.

    Ultimately we still need to conserve as well as work towards reducing polluting energy sources. Not a simple problem.
    Although I agree that wind power has limited potential, I can't really see the problems with solar. Large solar plants can be built in deserts where there's little flora and fauna, and the energy converted to hydrogen for distribution. The conversion loss is only around 20%, and there are few or no emissions.

    I addition, solar is ideal for 3rd world countries that are still without an electricity grid. In Myanmar, an increasing number of straw huts and villages have their own panels, reducing or obsoleting the need for a nationwide grid. Several projects are underway that are based on small local (village) grids with connection to the nearest villages, but with much less capacity that what would be needed with centralised production and distribution of electricity.

    But what is really needed is to reduce consumption of unnecessary consumer goods. Consumerism places an enormous strain on the environment, particularly in the producing countries, but in reality worldwide. A dramatic reduction however, would probably mean a collapse of the world's financial systems (since they are based on infinite growth and infinite inflation), and then we are venturing into territory where powerful resources come into play.

    The question is: Should we save the bankers or should we save the earth?

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    I am not a climate change denier. I believe in empirical data. And, I, too, am concerned with the effects of global warming and runaway pollution of our environment.

    Having said that, let me take, what might be called an opposing view..maybe considered a highly controversial view. But there are two sides to an equation.

    First and foremost, the participants contributing to this thread, are mostly from ' first world ' countries..and though from the ' first world ', some have voluntarily chosen to reside in so called underdeveloped or developing nations.

    I cannot help but feel that the ' first world ' residents are the ones that are the most vociferous proponents of climate change, pollution control and the effects of ( amongst other causes ) that of fossil fuels.

    These ' first world ' countries have through the centuries ( and their technological supremacy ) have been the biggest polluters of our planet. And continue to do so.

    The effects of colonization, by industrial countries, in the past has raped and pillaged the world's resources. Polluted our atmosphere, have militarily, economically asserted and subjugated people across the world.

    This has led gradually to the dominance of one group of people over the others, ..over the majority of the world's population.

    And it is this same group of ' do gooders ', ' friends of the earth ' and so on and so forth, that are the champions of this cry. They are content that their vociferous actions do not permit the underdogs to try to attain living standards , at a minimal level, to which the first worlders have become accustomed to for a very long time.

    Raising 300 million people out of poverty in the shortest period of time. The PRC achieved that. I think that is something marvelous. They could not have achieved that by not having built the infrastructure and the use of technology and the burning of fossil fuels to initiate and sustain this transformation.

    The Brazilian deforestation..the argument goes..vast tracts of forest have been devastated causing the irreparable damage to the earth. And could/might/has/shall contribute to the depletion of the earth's protective outer layers. The first worlders, even in this instance are more about protecting the effects of devastation that might be caused to them..rather than the poor amazon farmer that is prepared to sell his/her land to big money financed by bankers in London, NY, Amsterdam etc.

    Certain lands have been blessed by natural resources. Ask De Beers, for example. What has been the consequence for the mining of ' blood diamonds ' and gold. Hundreds of years of subjugation, cruelty, slavery...supported by religion too!! Now the cry seems to be..don't spoil the earth..don't mine!! What hypocrisy!!

    Some countries are blessed with fossil fuels. Some of these countries have good standards of living. These standards of education, health and prosperity has been achieved by the production and export of fossil fuels. And a few first world countries have also been blessed with fossil fuels.

    Invest, as much as the damage done during the past centuries, in the underdeveloped world; before raising the cry to save the world. The hypocrisy is bewildering.
    A person who has a family to feed in the so called backward world..would rather destroy a tree to provide fire to cook than for the making of furniture sold in IKEA.

    People want to live, survive on a daily basis in poor countries. They could care less what they have to do to save the biggest polluters that have the luxury to pontificate on such issues. Maybe it is their own generations they want to preserve rather feed the starving, in some far away land.

    Save this or that? I would want the poor to be able to feed the family than care for such hypocrisy.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    "Big Wind" farms also need considerable amounts of oil to lubricate each turbine. There's also the effects of strobe induced seizure which can happen when the light flickers off the blades. If each home could have small scale solar or roof top wind turbines, it would certainly off set our personal consumption of energy. If we start locally instead of waiting for others to be examples, we can make a good difference. It's a start anyway. And don't be fooled by Al Gore and those celebrities who jet off to climate change meetings, when they could easily just Face Time or Skype.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    I agree with much of what you say, Rayyan, but we cannot save the poor and at the same time destroy the earth. First world countries have to go in front and reduce their consumption and pollution first. Recent developments show that this is not likely to happen soon. The attitude seems to be "my contribution would be so small that it wouldn't count" and "the others will have to reduce their problems first.

    To make matters worse, third world countries that spend their resources wisely and go against the current are actively suppressed, and if their leaders don't follow the dominating financial and political views, they are also bombed.

    Science and innovation are the only ways towards improving the situation, and there are clear indications that the needed ideas will come from countries like China and India rather than Norway and the USA. The rich countries in the west are far too busy inventing the next iPhone and the next big bomb that can be dropped on people they don't like. China is already the clear leader when it comes to sustainable energy, and India is catching up.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.


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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    That's an interesting list not only due to the current ranking, but also because:

    - The current largest solar plant is 1,500 times as big as the largest one 35 years ago.
    - The current largest plant is 7.5 times as big as the largest one only 6 years ago.

    There's no reason to believe that this development won't continue. What can stop it would only be wars, sanctions and/or backwards/corrupt politicians. Unfortunately, stupidity and greed seems to be stronger among many people than common sense and the willingness to work towards a better world for all.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Change starts with you Be generous with the stuff that you aren't using, be more selective about the new things you bring into your life.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    Change starts with you Be generous with the stuff that you aren't using, be more selective about the new things you bring into your life.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    I am not a climate change denier. I believe in empirical data. And, I, too, am concerned with the effects of global warming and runaway pollution of our environment.

    Having said that, let me take, what might be called an opposing view..maybe considered a highly controversial view. But there are two sides to an equation.

    First and foremost, the participants contributing to this thread, are mostly from ' first world ' countries..and though from the ' first world ', some have voluntarily chosen to reside in so called underdeveloped or developing nations.

    I cannot help but feel that the ' first world ' residents are the ones that are the most vociferous proponents of climate change, pollution control and the effects of ( amongst other causes ) that of fossil fuels.

    These ' first world ' countries have through the centuries ( and their technological supremacy ) have been the biggest polluters of our planet. And continue to do so.

    The effects of colonization, by industrial countries, in the past has raped and pillaged the world's resources. Polluted our atmosphere, have militarily, economically asserted and subjugated people across the world.

    This has led gradually to the dominance of one group of people over the others, ..over the majority of the world's population.

    And it is this same group of ' do gooders ', ' friends of the earth ' and so on and so forth, that are the champions of this cry. They are content that their vociferous actions do not permit the underdogs to try to attain living standards , at a minimal level, to which the first worlders have become accustomed to for a very long time.

    Raising 300 million people out of poverty in the shortest period of time. The PRC achieved that. I think that is something marvelous. They could not have achieved that by not having built the infrastructure and the use of technology and the burning of fossil fuels to initiate and sustain this transformation.

    The Brazilian deforestation..the argument goes..vast tracts of forest have been devastated causing the irreparable damage to the earth. And could/might/has/shall contribute to the depletion of the earth's protective outer layers. The first worlders, even in this instance are more about protecting the effects of devastation that might be caused to them..rather than the poor amazon farmer that is prepared to sell his/her land to big money financed by bankers in London, NY, Amsterdam etc.

    Certain lands have been blessed by natural resources. Ask De Beers, for example. What has been the consequence for the mining of ' blood diamonds ' and gold. Hundreds of years of subjugation, cruelty, slavery...supported by religion too!! Now the cry seems to be..don't spoil the earth..don't mine!! What hypocrisy!!

    Some countries are blessed with fossil fuels. Some of these countries have good standards of living. These standards of education, health and prosperity has been achieved by the production and export of fossil fuels. And a few first world countries have also been blessed with fossil fuels.

    Invest, as much as the damage done during the past centuries, in the underdeveloped world; before raising the cry to save the world. The hypocrisy is bewildering.
    A person who has a family to feed in the so called backward world..would rather destroy a tree to provide fire to cook than for the making of furniture sold in IKEA.

    People want to live, survive on a daily basis in poor countries. They could care less what they have to do to save the biggest polluters that have the luxury to pontificate on such issues. Maybe it is their own generations they want to preserve rather feed the starving, in some far away land.

    Save this or that? I would want the poor to be able to feed the family than care for such hypocrisy.
    Rayyan, you are absolutely right, the problem is not simple. We need to figure out how to balance the needs of people with the need to protect the environment. While the first world is boasting of its green credentials, it is also using the third world as a supplier of cheap materials and labor. The pollution we are now causing is in those countries because of their weak environmental and labor policy. It is the policy of out-of-sight-out-of-mind. But this is the same type of colonial behavior the West has always taken part in.

    But many of the international agreement try to get a transfer of funds and technology to poorer countries to help elevate this inequality. However, there is resistance. Most people think the US pulling out of the Paris agreement is a bad thing, but I think it will have huge benefits as the US was one of the chief countries hindering the climate agreement. Countries like China can take advantage of this vacuum to expand its dominance not only in green energy technology, but also political influence. China has spent a great deal of diplomatic capital in Africa already. The Europeans and Canadians also welcome the shift as they see great opportunity in the US isolationist policy.
    Last edited by Shashin; 4 Days Ago at 18:45.
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'm surrounded by 'clean' energy - solar, wind and hydro. The only sources I see that can work at scale and indefinitely are still nuclear and thermal. Since I don't live in Iceland here in the PNW it means that it is probably nuclear.

    Wind is ok in theory but if you've ever seen hundreds of square miles covered in windmills that nobody cares about as they age you'd have a different view of many green energy programs. Hydro for us is an ecological disaster. Solar has untold horrible effects on flora, fauna, birds and wildlife in general.

    Ultimately we still need to conserve as well as work towards reducing polluting energy sources. Not a simple problem.
    Geothermal is great for the US.



    It is a bit of a mystery why it is not catching on more, but there are plants here.

    Off shore wind is an ideal solution as most of the largest population centers are near the coast. BOEM is the agency that is in charge of that. The main focus has been in the Atlantic, but public opposition has been high. Hopefully Block Island in Rhode Island will change that.

    What we need in changing the grid from using large centralized power plants to using micro power.

    But not needing energy is the best way. The German Passive House concept of super insulated structure that don't need heating/cooling is great. For a typical home, it only adds about 30% to the construction cost. And there are so many ways to save energy creatively--trains stopping at stations can take the energy from braking to power the station. The Prius principle--you can't quite make the perfect electric car now, but maybe we can get half-way there.

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    On the Validity of NOAA, NASA and Hadley CRU Global Average Surface Temperature Data & The Validity of EPA’s CO2 Endangerment Finding

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    There is a lot of solutions and alternatives.
    Here is a good film/documentary on this question:: https://www.demain-lefilm.com/en/film
    In essence, do your best trying to keep the planet as clean as possible, even the smallest thing done by one, is a huge improvement if everyone do it.
    For myself, i now only eat bio and local food, eating meat and fish not more than twice a week , only buying things that last ( i even apply this to my camera and electronics goods)
    It is not a big effort, and it is very brain rewarding to know that you spend your money on good things ...
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    It's probably a fundamental mistake to think of humans as somehow separate from the environment - imagine trying to survive without it!

    Sometimes I think real world problems are a lot like Japanese cinema where good and evil, friend and foe can be sort of vague and dependent on one's point of view. But per capita, I think we have a pretty good idea of where the biggest consumers of the world's resources are (and sorry, buying a hybrid or electric vehicle doesn't score you bonus points).

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Interesting...no?

    WOW

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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Interesting...no?

    WOW
    It must be pretty clear by now that most of the world's large corporations don't give a **** when it comes to environmental issues. When it comes to the type of food companies mentioned in the article, there's even an incentive to participate in the destruction: the more difficult it becomes to grow and produce natural food, the more dependent humanity will become on their processed products. Unfortunately, most people's awareness around these questions is close to zero, even among those who are directly affected. What do people buy to soothe their soar throats when large parts of Southeast Asia is covered with smoke from humanly initiated forest fires in Indonesia? Bottled water from Nestlé or a Pepsi of course!
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    Re: When Will The Planet Be Too Hot For Humans? Much, Much Sooner Than You Imagine.

    According to NPR a new Swedish study suggests that we not have children to offset global warming. I'm more in favor of keeping Al Gore, select politicians and Leonardo DiCaprio off of private jets because I think that will have a more pronounced effect on the environment. Boycott Hollywood!

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