Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Bart ...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #2
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Atlanta Ga
    Posts
    2,512
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Idiots ! How did Leica Brasil get away with funding a video and showing it without running it by Leica Germany ? Leica should close Leica Brazil ....just like Nikon did with their distributor .

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Oh yes, letís not let something trivial like this spoil our partnership with Huawei. Where are all the social justice warriors now? Thanks for posting, now to add Leica on my list of companies to boycott.

  4. #4
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Politicians, any ideology, any nationality, are becoming laughable, or maybe they always were. Boycott this, sanction that. The only ones to be affected are ordinary people. Politicians and bankers always float to the top with their Champagne and luxury cars. I'll buy Iranian oil, Chinese phones and American software any day given the possibility. Actually, my phone is Chinese, my Mac runs American software, and I'm sure some of the oil in this country is Iranian

    Does North Korea or Israel make anything that I could buy? Nuclear bombs?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Politicians, any ideology, any nationality, are becoming laughable, or maybe they always were. Boycott this, sanction that. The only ones to be affected are ordinary people. Politicians and bankers always float to the top with their Champagne and luxury cars. I'll buy Iranian oil, Chinese phones and American software any day given the possibility. Actually, my phone is Chinese, my Mac runs American software, and I'm sure some of the oil in this country is Iranian

    Does North Korea or Israel make anything that I could buy? Nuclear bombs?
    Israel actually produces some of the finest products and also produces the Leaf DB's. Israeli products are well known for their quality too. Its beyond the scope of this forum to communicate the human sensibilities needed to show solidarity against products made in countries with known human rights abuses against religion, gender, or simply wanting freedom from oppressive authoritarian communist or socialist rule. Since most of us are just keyboard warriors with a limited scope and understanding of politics, boycotting is more effective than you think. One person's words can be a million others actions. Look at Apple and Nike boycotts over child labor. It works for cameras too.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 23rd April 2019 at 13:08.

  6. #6
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Israel actually produces some of the finest products and also produces the Leaf DB's. Israeli products are well known for their quality too. Its beyond the scope of this forum to communicate the human sensibilities needed to show solidarity against products made in countries with known human rights abuses against religion, gender, or simply wanting freedom from oppressive authoritarian communist or socialist rule. Since most of us are just keyboard warriors with a limited scope and understanding of politics, boycotting is more effective than you think. One person's words can be a million others actions. Look at Apple and Nike boycotts over child labor. It works for cameras too.
    Most boycotts happen for political and economical reasons, very often with a strong scent of criminal activity, also on state/government level. Human rights abuse happen under all kinds of political systems, although rarely in western style democracies. Socialism is mostly dead, except for in Cuba. The fact that a country has a one party system doesn't mean that they are socialist, and certainly not China.

    I travel to conflict areas regularly. Boycotts and sanctions always hit ordinary people first and hardest. Corrupt leaders and dictators don't die or resign from santcions. They die from old age or assassination. Sometimes they die from war, but only after tens of thousands of ordinary citizens have died from the same war.

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Socialism is mostly dead, except for in Cuba.
    Well, that and Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, . . .

  8. #8
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, that and Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, . . .
    For now, yes, but it's quietly being assassinated by the right-wing populist parties. Hopefully the trend will turn before it's too late.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For now, yes, but it's quietly being assassinated by the right-wing populist parties. Hopefully the trend will turn before it's too late.
    Iím betting that Venezuelanís donít share your opinion.

  10. #10
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Iím betting that Venezuelanís donít share your opinion.
    The Venezuelan government has failed not because they are socialist, but because they are incompetent. Being sanctioned by USA, which started under Obama who for some reason claimed that Venezuela was a security threat to the USA, hasn't helped much either.

  11. #11
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Atlanta Ga
    Posts
    2,512
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thumbs down Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...



    Do you think maybe this has taken an off topic slant ? Its not a debate about socialism or censorship .

  12. #12
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post


    Do you think maybe this has taken an off topic slant ? Its not a debate about socialism or censorship .
    Absolutely, which was to be expected
    Am I to blame? Absolutely

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post


    Do you think maybe this has taken an off topic slant ? Its not a debate about socialism or censorship .
    Have you read the OP's first comment or bothered to read the article? We're right on topic.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Atlanta Ga
    Posts
    2,512
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thumbs down Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Have you read the OP's first comment or bothered to read the article? We're right on topic.
    Yes I read the article .....its you that missed the point of the post . This forum isn t comments to the New York Times .

    In the context of a photography forum ....the relevant point is that Leica is in hot water with the Chinese government . A huge very important economic market for them . Should this dispute escalate ..losing the Chinese market would be a significant blow to Leica as a viable concern .

    This became twisted into using personal social based boycotts of any company you disagree with . Thanks in no small part to your interpretation and posts .

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Yes I read the article .....its you that missed the point of the post . This forum isn t comments to the New York Times .

    In the context of a photography forum ....the relevant point is that Leica is in hot water with the Chinese government . A huge very important economic market for them . Should this dispute escalate ..losing the Chinese market would be a significant blow to Leica as a viable concern .

    This became twisted into using personal social based boycotts of any company you disagree with . Thanks in no small part to your interpretation and posts .
    The article is about censorship because Leica is evoking a very disturbing and regrettable part of China's history. Saatchi/Saatchi is one of the biggest agencies in the world. It's hard to imagine Leica knew nothing of this, but their indignation over any misunderstandings or false conclusions is laughable at best. The video in question seems to be accurate in regards to its content and historical fact. And so there's no misunderstanding here...As the Sunset Bar states...Anything goes.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Iím betting that Venezuelanís donít share your opinion.
    Well, Chile under Pinochet was hardly the best example of Neoliberal Economics (Reaganomics or Trickle-down Economics as it became known in the States). Not that neoliberal economics has been universally great here...
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  17. #17
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, Chile under Pinochet was hardly the best example of Neoliberal Economics (Reaganomics or Trickle-down Economics as it became known in the States). Not that neoliberal economics has been universally great here...
    It's ironic that deregulation under neoliberal economics is what has made the Chinese rich. Unregulated capitalists will always look for the cheapest places to manufacture stuff to increase their profits, and oppressive regimes will mostly be cheaper than democratic ones. China, which is increasingly capitalist, doesn't like to be reminded about their unpleasant past though, although the present isn't so shiny either, if you look a bit behind the facades.

    So Leica has to go, at least for a while, and then quietly, in a few months, everything will return to normal. The Chinese are also very pragmatic.

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's ironic that deregulation under neoliberal economics is what has made the Chinese rich. Unregulated capitalists will always look for the cheapest places to manufacture stuff to increase their profits, and oppressive regimes will mostly be cheaper than democratic ones. China, which is increasingly capitalist, doesn't like to be reminded about their unpleasant past though, although the present isn't so shiny either, if you look a bit behind the facades.

    So Leica has to go, at least for a while, and then quietly, in a few months, everything will return to normal. The Chinese are also very pragmatic.
    Oh yes indeed lets point a finger at China for being yet another example of a 'bad' Government which doesn't do this or that or the other thing as well as some countries are believed to do...very funny reading.

    China delivers a miracle to itself every day - feeding a population of over 1.3bn people. Middle class Westerners on a forum because they share interest in photographic toys have absolutely no idea of the practical implications of delivering this daily miracle. It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there. China has improved its GDP per head of population ratio because in letting China into the WTO the 'developed' world legitimized Chinese currency and trade and allowed China access to capital, wghich it used to begin the building of a modern manufacturing based economy now rapidly ovong into a service based economy in record time - over the last few decades China has been able to implement a massive urbanisation of its population which continues to raise the standard of living of each and every citizen in China and has managed to deliver goods and services to buyers around the world at low prices, as well as being largely responsible for keeping most Asian countries (including Australia and Canada btw) out of a deep recession after the so called GFC.

    China doesn't 'need' Leica or any associate of Leica to dump a colonialist perspective on the country and pretend some hipster journalist and his camera recording some event is anything more than a 'Hollywood' glamourised piece of ant-Chinese Government propaganda.

    US Presidents wanted to bring/impose their version of 'democracy' to the Middle East - and all we have to show for this piece of aggressive colonialist nonsense is a bunch of broken and destroyed countries and a refugee crisis that is dominating political and social agendas across the world.

    the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted.

    In a socialist's world - economic irrationality is somehow a preferred alternative - good luck with that.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  19. #19
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Oh yes indeed lets point a finger at China for being yet another example of a 'bad' Government which doesn't do this or that or the other thing as well as some countries are believed to do...very funny reading.

    China delivers a miracle to itself every day - feeding a population of over 1.3bn people. Middle class Westerners on a forum because they share interest in photographic toys have absolutely no idea of the practical implications of delivering this daily miracle. It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there. China has improved its GDP per head of population ratio because in letting China into the WTO the 'developed' world legitimized Chinese currency and trade and allowed China access to capital, wghich it used to begin the building of a modern manufacturing based economy now rapidly ovong into a service based economy in record time - over the last few decades China has been able to implement a massive urbanisation of its population which continues to raise the standard of living of each and every citizen in China and has managed to deliver goods and services to buyers around the world at low prices, as well as being largely responsible for keeping most Asian countries (including Australia and Canada btw) out of a deep recession after the so called GFC.

    China doesn't 'need' Leica or any associate of Leica to dump a colonialist perspective on the country and pretend some hipster journalist and his camera recording some event is anything more than a 'Hollywood' glamourised piece of ant-Chinese Government propaganda.

    US Presidents wanted to bring/impose their version of 'democracy' to the Middle East - and all we have to show for this piece of aggressive colonialist nonsense is a bunch of broken and destroyed countries and a refugee crisis that is dominating political and social agendas across the world.

    the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted.

    In a socialist's world - economic irrationality is somehow a preferred alternative - good luck with that.
    I mostly agree with you Peter, and while I believe that exports to western countries have been important for the development of the Chinese economy in the past, trade within Asia will be increasingly important in the future.

    More than half of the 36 million tourists arriving to Thailand every year are Chinese, and on average, they spend more money per day than their western counterparts. China's development has indeed been remarkable.

    In my job here in Asia I encounter Chinese competitors every day. Most of them still have some distance to go before they reach western quality levels. However, when it comes to communication technology and renewable energy, they are technology and market leaders. Other areas will follow, and much faster than most Europeans and Americans understand.

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted....
    Well, at least you have not resorted to silly stereotypes. (BTW, have we met? And when did I ever state I take my standard of living for granted? I am pretty sure I would not be that stupid.)

    Neoliberal economics is actually a precise term. Chile suffered under that for a very long time. The idea that market forces will always lead to the best outcomes has pretty much been debunked, which is why some of the best countries balance the private and public sectors, understanding not everything is a private good.

    Yes, China has reduced poverty greatly in its application of capitalism. (I am not sure who is arguing that populations should suffer for an economic model.) But "free-market" capitalism has not really turned out to be sustainable in the long run. Can China maintain a growth model? Land degradation is a huge problem for their agriculture. Their fisheries have only been able to grow because of their fishing down the food chain, but it is pretty much unsustainable. Pollution is a problem and while they have invested in renewables, they have also stated building coal-fired plants again. And I am not really pointing to China is the sole global sinner, just as one example that many countries face. China has, as you have pointed out, a bigger issues because of their population. The default global economic model is based on neoliberal economic ideas (just look at the World Bank, UN, and other foreign aid schemes) which will require a solution beyond China. The rightward swing in political leadership has been to some extent a reaction to neoliberal economic outcomes by those that have not benefited--and there are a lot.

    The problem is capitalism is built on two basic ideas: there is always a new frontier to exploit (in order to grow) and there are no externalities to account for--I rarely hear capitalists talk about market failure. So your socialist irrationality comment (do you actually know what socialism means?) needs to be compared to capitalist irrationality. We are not facing the greatest environmental threat in human history because of runaway socialism.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    STL Missouri
    Posts
    164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    I've seen the "commercial" and from one who spent a good portion of their career in advertising working for large agencies I can honestly say that the piece is amateurish at best.
    If they really wanted to do this right they could have hired someone on par with Kubrick who'd have made this beyond realistic. That said I'm not sure how this forward's Leica's cause in any way with their target market..who are not the journalist depicted. Any time one tries to use shock value to make a point in advertising they had better be damn sure that there is truth in what they are saying or its going to backfire.

    R

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sea of Cortez, Mexico
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    "It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there."

    Actually Peter... while I agree with much of your post, it's a good portion of the factories in the US and the rest of the western world that were moved to China because of labor costs and the absence of labor unions. CEO's of these companies could make 10-50X more because of the reduced operating costs in China. China didn't invent these jobs. Hundreds if not thousands of companies worldwide moved to China and the labor force was readily available and willing. This isn't rocket science. It began during the Nixon administration, and I personally know CEO's who are swimming in lucre because of their company relocations to China. In March of 2017 Apple alone employeed over 4.8 million workers in it's factories... and this is just one company.
    Last edited by apocolibri; 25th April 2019 at 20:11.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #23
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    "It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there."

    Actually Peter... while I agree with much of your post, it's a good portion of the factories in the US and the rest of the western world that were moved to China because of labor costs and the absence of labor unions. CEO's of these companies could make 10-50X more because of the reduced operating costs in China. China didn't invent these jobs. Hundreds if not thousands of companies worldwide moved to China and the labor force was readily available and willing. This isn't rocket science. It began during the Nixon administration, and I personally know CEO's who are swimming in lucre because of their company relocations to China.
    There have been cases of investors buying European industrial entities with the sole purpose of closing down in Europe, selling the assets to pay for the acquisition and then starting production in a low cost country with the same products and brand name. It's legal, but if you ask European workers affected by this, they would probably say that it shouldn't be.

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, at least you have not resorted to silly stereotypes. (BTW, have we met? And when did I ever state I take my standard of living for granted? I am pretty sure I would not be that stupid.)

    Neoliberal economics is actually a precise term. Chile suffered under that for a very long time. The idea that market forces will always lead to the best outcomes has pretty much been debunked, which is why some of the best countries balance the private and public sectors, understanding not everything is a private good.

    Yes, China has reduced poverty greatly in its application of capitalism. (I am not sure who is arguing that populations should suffer for an economic model.) But "free-market" capitalism has not really turned out to be sustainable in the long run. Can China maintain a growth model? Land degradation is a huge problem for their agriculture. Their fisheries have only been able to grow because of their fishing down the food chain, but it is pretty much unsustainable. Pollution is a problem and while they have invested in renewables, they have also stated building coal-fired plants again. And I am not really pointing to China is the sole global sinner, just as one example that many countries face. China has, as you have pointed out, a bigger issues because of their population. The default global economic model is based on neoliberal economic ideas (just look at the World Bank, UN, and other foreign aid schemes) which will require a solution beyond China. The rightward swing in political leadership has been to some extent a reaction to neoliberal economic outcomes by those that have not benefited--and there are a lot.

    The problem is capitalism is built on two basic ideas: there is always a new frontier to exploit (in order to grow) and there are no externalities to account for--I rarely hear capitalists talk about market failure. So your socialist irrationality comment (do you actually know what socialism means?) needs to be compared to capitalist irrationality. We are not facing the greatest environmental threat in human history because of runaway socialism.
    I can't understand what you are trying to say - but I do get the feeling you are offended enough to try and personalise a discussion. If you think economic irrationalism is a better course than economic rationalism - that is your problem - and personally I gave up taking any 'isms' seriously in high school.

    Constructions and labels like 'neo-liberal' are meaningless - devoid of content or substance they are mere memes much like left wing/right wing...I wont waste a second more of my time 'debating' stuff that has zero uitlity.

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    "It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there."

    Actually Peter... while I agree with much of your post, it's a good portion of the factories in the US and the rest of the western world that were moved to China because of labor costs and the absence of labor unions. CEO's of these companies could make 10-50X more because of the reduced operating costs in China. China didn't invent these jobs. Hundreds if not thousands of companies worldwide moved to China and the labor force was readily available and willing. This isn't rocket science. It began during the Nixon administration, and I personally know CEO's who are swimming in lucre because of their company relocations to China. In March of 2017 Apple alone employed over 4.8 million workers in it's factories... and this is just one company.
    Yes a lot of Western companies have manufacturing facilities in China and a lot of Chinese companies have manufacturing facilities outside China - so what? More interesting to me anyway is the fact that Chinese companies are investing in a faster rate outside China than so called developed country companies.

    Maybe if the US tax system was more economically rational and less a result of doctrinaire uneducated nonsense and politics ( ditto for the 'Europeans') - the US tax base would be a lot larger since so many large US companies pay no taxes - after all - studies dating back to the 60's comprehensively proved that the lower the tax rate - the higher the amount of tax revenue the government received...

    We either embrace the fact the we live in one world and that the likely effect of open trade is that poorer countries 'export' their poverty by importing investment OR we can all go back to using war as a clearing house for the unemployed. I find it interesting that the most reactionary types are those who declare themselves 'for' the worker and social justice blah blah blah - but fail to understand that 'the worker' and social justice' is now a global phenomenon - and all that goes with that.

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I can't understand what you are trying to say - but I do get the feeling you are offended enough to try and personalise a discussion. If you think economic irrationalism is a better course than economic rationalism - that is your probleand personally I gave up taking any 'isms' seriously in high school.

    Constructions and labels like 'neo-liberal' are meaningless - devoid of content or substance they are mere memes much like left wing/right wing...I wont waste a second more of my time 'debating' stuff that has zero uitlity.
    "Economic rationalism" (I assume the Australian term, it is meaningless in the US) has the same meaning, or perhaps no more meaning, as "neoliberal." Very similar to the neoliberal economic policies of Thatcher and Reagan, both influenced by Pinochet and Hayek. Unfortunately, your "economic rationalism" has worked about as well as any other ideology. And this is really the problem with the political discourse today: it is just idealogues and their uncritical adherence to their "philosophies." What good does it do?

    And I am totally fine with you dismissing me--I just wanted to challenge your statement, but I don't need a reply. There are others in this thread that can actually have a conversation.

  27. #27
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    10,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2518

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Yes a lot of Western companies have manufacturing facilities in China and a lot of Chinese companies have manufacturing facilities outside China - so what? More interesting to me anyway is the fact that Chinese companies are investing in a faster rate outside China than so called developed country companies.

    Maybe if the US tax system was more economically rational and less a result of doctrinaire uneducated nonsense and politics ( ditto for the 'Europeans') - the US tax base would be a lot larger since so many large US companies pay no taxes - after all - studies dating back to the 60's comprehensively proved that the lower the tax rate - the higher the amount of tax revenue the government received...

    We either embrace the fact the we live in one world and that the likely effect of open trade is that poorer countries 'export' their poverty by importing investment OR we can all go back to using war as a clearing house for the unemployed. I find it interesting that the most reactionary types are those who declare themselves 'for' the worker and social justice blah blah blah - but fail to understand that 'the worker' and social justice' is now a global phenomenon - and all that goes with that.
    It's interesting to see how, when western journalists want to find ways to take down China's reputation, they point to weaknesses in their financial systems and realities. It's probably natural, since western countries seem to be managed by the banks nowadays, or maybe they always were. But the successful East Asian countries are run by innovation more than finances. Successful, well implemented innovation will result in a sustainable economy if handled properly.

    Western innovation seems increasingly aimed towards short term financial gain. That's not sustainable. We don't need iPhones, but we do need renewable energy. Some western countries seem to have entered a kind of "panic mode", placing sanctions on any country that seem to represent some kind of threat to yesterday's world order. Sanctions however are often counterproductive, since they encourage innovation to circumvent them. Take Russia, which has always depended on imports of food. After western sanctions were enforced, they have increased food production dramatically and is now exporting food products in direct competition with the countries that placed the sanctions on them in the first place. Together with China, they are again developing passenger airplanes, and it's just a question of time before they'll hack into the Boeing/Airbus duopoly, particularly in the huge Asia market.

    --

    All this would make it easy for China to ignore an unpleasant video from a little German company. But then pride and honour enters the stage, and the feeling of being unfairly treated. To take an example: There were enough photos taken with Leica cameras during conflicts like the Vietnam war, where westerners were "the bad guys", but Leica chose not to include anything that could be seen as critisism of western countries. Leica did the opposite, depicting Chinese, Africans and Muslims as uncivilised, rude, brutal and dangerous, while photographers, mostly western, are heroes who document their misdeeds.

    That's a mistake in my eyes, and makes the Chinese reaction understandable. Maybe China would have reacted like they did anyway as long as the scene from China was included, as far as I remember the only scene with information about location and time. But if we're going to critisise China, we'd better stand for a balanced point of view. The Leica video lacked that balance.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

    I guess they're banning muslims too...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/w...tion-camp.html

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •