The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

The word 'Leica' is now banned ...

jdphoto

Well-known member
Oh yes, let’s not let something trivial like this spoil our partnership with Huawei. Where are all the social justice warriors now? Thanks for posting, now to add Leica on my list of companies to boycott.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Politicians, any ideology, any nationality, are becoming laughable, or maybe they always were. Boycott this, sanction that. The only ones to be affected are ordinary people. Politicians and bankers always float to the top with their Champagne and luxury cars. I'll buy Iranian oil, Chinese phones and American software any day given the possibility. Actually, my phone is Chinese, my Mac runs American software, and I'm sure some of the oil in this country is Iranian :thumbup:

Does North Korea or Israel make anything that I could buy? Nuclear bombs?
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
Politicians, any ideology, any nationality, are becoming laughable, or maybe they always were. Boycott this, sanction that. The only ones to be affected are ordinary people. Politicians and bankers always float to the top with their Champagne and luxury cars. I'll buy Iranian oil, Chinese phones and American software any day given the possibility. Actually, my phone is Chinese, my Mac runs American software, and I'm sure some of the oil in this country is Iranian :thumbup:

Does North Korea or Israel make anything that I could buy? Nuclear bombs?
Israel actually produces some of the finest products and also produces the Leaf DB's. Israeli products are well known for their quality too. Its beyond the scope of this forum to communicate the human sensibilities needed to show solidarity against products made in countries with known human rights abuses against religion, gender, or simply wanting freedom from oppressive authoritarian communist or socialist rule. Since most of us are just keyboard warriors with a limited scope and understanding of politics, boycotting is more effective than you think. One person's words can be a million others actions. Look at Apple and Nike boycotts over child labor. It works for cameras too.
 
Last edited:

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Israel actually produces some of the finest products and also produces the Leaf DB's. Israeli products are well known for their quality too. Its beyond the scope of this forum to communicate the human sensibilities needed to show solidarity against products made in countries with known human rights abuses against religion, gender, or simply wanting freedom from oppressive authoritarian communist or socialist rule. Since most of us are just keyboard warriors with a limited scope and understanding of politics, boycotting is more effective than you think. One person's words can be a million others actions. Look at Apple and Nike boycotts over child labor. It works for cameras too.
Most boycotts happen for political and economical reasons, very often with a strong scent of criminal activity, also on state/government level. Human rights abuse happen under all kinds of political systems, although rarely in western style democracies. Socialism is mostly dead, except for in Cuba. The fact that a country has a one party system doesn't mean that they are socialist, and certainly not China.

I travel to conflict areas regularly. Boycotts and sanctions always hit ordinary people first and hardest. Corrupt leaders and dictators don't die or resign from santcions. They die from old age or assassination. Sometimes they die from war, but only after tens of thousands of ordinary citizens have died from the same war.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I’m betting that Venezuelan’s don’t share your opinion.
The Venezuelan government has failed not because they are socialist, but because they are incompetent. Being sanctioned by USA, which started under Obama who for some reason claimed that Venezuela was a security threat to the USA, hasn't helped much either.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
:loco:

Do you think maybe this has taken an off topic slant ? Its not a debate about socialism or censorship .
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Have you read the OP's first comment or bothered to read the article? We're right on topic.
Yes I read the article .....its you that missed the point of the post . This forum isn t comments to the New York Times .

In the context of a photography forum ....the relevant point is that Leica is in hot water with the Chinese government . A huge very important economic market for them . Should this dispute escalate ..losing the Chinese market would be a significant blow to Leica as a viable concern .

This became twisted into using personal social based boycotts of any company you disagree with . Thanks in no small part to your interpretation and posts .
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
Yes I read the article .....its you that missed the point of the post . This forum isn t comments to the New York Times .

In the context of a photography forum ....the relevant point is that Leica is in hot water with the Chinese government . A huge very important economic market for them . Should this dispute escalate ..losing the Chinese market would be a significant blow to Leica as a viable concern .

This became twisted into using personal social based boycotts of any company you disagree with . Thanks in no small part to your interpretation and posts .
The article is about censorship because Leica is evoking a very disturbing and regrettable part of China's history. Saatchi/Saatchi is one of the biggest agencies in the world. It's hard to imagine Leica knew nothing of this, but their indignation over any misunderstandings or false conclusions is laughable at best. The video in question seems to be accurate in regards to its content and historical fact. And so there's no misunderstanding here...As the Sunset Bar states...Anything goes.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I’m betting that Venezuelan’s don’t share your opinion.
Well, Chile under Pinochet was hardly the best example of Neoliberal Economics (Reaganomics or Trickle-down Economics as it became known in the States). Not that neoliberal economics has been universally great here...
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Well, Chile under Pinochet was hardly the best example of Neoliberal Economics (Reaganomics or Trickle-down Economics as it became known in the States). Not that neoliberal economics has been universally great here...
It's ironic that deregulation under neoliberal economics is what has made the Chinese rich. Unregulated capitalists will always look for the cheapest places to manufacture stuff to increase their profits, and oppressive regimes will mostly be cheaper than democratic ones. China, which is increasingly capitalist, doesn't like to be reminded about their unpleasant past though, although the present isn't so shiny either, if you look a bit behind the facades.

So Leica has to go, at least for a while, and then quietly, in a few months, everything will return to normal. The Chinese are also very pragmatic.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
It's ironic that deregulation under neoliberal economics is what has made the Chinese rich. Unregulated capitalists will always look for the cheapest places to manufacture stuff to increase their profits, and oppressive regimes will mostly be cheaper than democratic ones. China, which is increasingly capitalist, doesn't like to be reminded about their unpleasant past though, although the present isn't so shiny either, if you look a bit behind the facades.

So Leica has to go, at least for a while, and then quietly, in a few months, everything will return to normal. The Chinese are also very pragmatic.
Oh yes indeed lets point a finger at China for being yet another example of a 'bad' Government which doesn't do this or that or the other thing as well as some countries are believed to do...very funny reading.

China delivers a miracle to itself every day - feeding a population of over 1.3bn people. Middle class Westerners on a forum because they share interest in photographic toys have absolutely no idea of the practical implications of delivering this daily miracle. It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there. China has improved its GDP per head of population ratio because in letting China into the WTO the 'developed' world legitimized Chinese currency and trade and allowed China access to capital, wghich it used to begin the building of a modern manufacturing based economy now rapidly ovong into a service based economy in record time - over the last few decades China has been able to implement a massive urbanisation of its population which continues to raise the standard of living of each and every citizen in China and has managed to deliver goods and services to buyers around the world at low prices, as well as being largely responsible for keeping most Asian countries (including Australia and Canada btw) out of a deep recession after the so called GFC.

China doesn't 'need' Leica or any associate of Leica to dump a colonialist perspective on the country and pretend some hipster journalist and his camera recording some event is anything more than a 'Hollywood' glamourised piece of ant-Chinese Government propaganda.

US Presidents wanted to bring/impose their version of 'democracy' to the Middle East - and all we have to show for this piece of aggressive colonialist nonsense is a bunch of broken and destroyed countries and a refugee crisis that is dominating political and social agendas across the world.

the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted.

In a socialist's world - economic irrationality is somehow a preferred alternative - good luck with that.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Oh yes indeed lets point a finger at China for being yet another example of a 'bad' Government which doesn't do this or that or the other thing as well as some countries are believed to do...very funny reading.

China delivers a miracle to itself every day - feeding a population of over 1.3bn people. Middle class Westerners on a forum because they share interest in photographic toys have absolutely no idea of the practical implications of delivering this daily miracle. It is also a falsehood to think China became rich because a few Western companies built some factories over there. China has improved its GDP per head of population ratio because in letting China into the WTO the 'developed' world legitimized Chinese currency and trade and allowed China access to capital, wghich it used to begin the building of a modern manufacturing based economy now rapidly ovong into a service based economy in record time - over the last few decades China has been able to implement a massive urbanisation of its population which continues to raise the standard of living of each and every citizen in China and has managed to deliver goods and services to buyers around the world at low prices, as well as being largely responsible for keeping most Asian countries (including Australia and Canada btw) out of a deep recession after the so called GFC.

China doesn't 'need' Leica or any associate of Leica to dump a colonialist perspective on the country and pretend some hipster journalist and his camera recording some event is anything more than a 'Hollywood' glamourised piece of ant-Chinese Government propaganda.

US Presidents wanted to bring/impose their version of 'democracy' to the Middle East - and all we have to show for this piece of aggressive colonialist nonsense is a bunch of broken and destroyed countries and a refugee crisis that is dominating political and social agendas across the world.

the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted.

In a socialist's world - economic irrationality is somehow a preferred alternative - good luck with that.
I mostly agree with you Peter, and while I believe that exports to western countries have been important for the development of the Chinese economy in the past, trade within Asia will be increasingly important in the future.

More than half of the 36 million tourists arriving to Thailand every year are Chinese, and on average, they spend more money per day than their western counterparts. China's development has indeed been remarkable.

In my job here in Asia I encounter Chinese competitors every day. Most of them still have some distance to go before they reach western quality levels. However, when it comes to communication technology and renewable energy, they are technology and market leaders. Other areas will follow, and much faster than most Europeans and Americans understand.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
...the very fact that supposedly grown up people on this forum still mouth inanities like 'neo-liberal' and 'economic rationalism' as some sort of supposed criticism underlines just how much silliness can exist when people take their standard of living for granted....
Well, at least you have not resorted to silly stereotypes. (BTW, have we met? And when did I ever state I take my standard of living for granted? I am pretty sure I would not be that stupid.)

Neoliberal economics is actually a precise term. Chile suffered under that for a very long time. The idea that market forces will always lead to the best outcomes has pretty much been debunked, which is why some of the best countries balance the private and public sectors, understanding not everything is a private good.

Yes, China has reduced poverty greatly in its application of capitalism. (I am not sure who is arguing that populations should suffer for an economic model.) But "free-market" capitalism has not really turned out to be sustainable in the long run. Can China maintain a growth model? Land degradation is a huge problem for their agriculture. Their fisheries have only been able to grow because of their fishing down the food chain, but it is pretty much unsustainable. Pollution is a problem and while they have invested in renewables, they have also stated building coal-fired plants again. And I am not really pointing to China is the sole global sinner, just as one example that many countries face. China has, as you have pointed out, a bigger issues because of their population. The default global economic model is based on neoliberal economic ideas (just look at the World Bank, UN, and other foreign aid schemes) which will require a solution beyond China. The rightward swing in political leadership has been to some extent a reaction to neoliberal economic outcomes by those that have not benefited--and there are a lot.

The problem is capitalism is built on two basic ideas: there is always a new frontier to exploit (in order to grow) and there are no externalities to account for--I rarely hear capitalists talk about market failure. So your socialist irrationality comment (do you actually know what socialism means?) needs to be compared to capitalist irrationality. We are not facing the greatest environmental threat in human history because of runaway socialism.
 
Top