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Thread: Things are bad...

  1. #1
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Things are bad...

    We all know things are bad here in the States, but we may not know how bad. Here is a U-Tube video showing one of the many "Shanty Towns" popping up in Southern California. Folks, this is "Grapes of Wrath" stuff, only there are no grapes.

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmeHiFZUWtE

    Of course the problem is not limited to California. More info: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/us/26tents.html

    Maybe an opportunity for somebody with extra time on their hands to do some Lange-ian style documentation...

    Peace,
    Jack
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  2. #2
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Not to distract from your doom and gloom, but to put unemployment growth in perspective:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2216238/

    The bigger the dot, the more jobs it represents.
    Blue = job gains.
    Red = job losses.
    The actual number of affected jobs is in blue or red above the map.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    That is one scary graphic. Moving to New Zealand
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Some of the Magnum photographers did a project on the impact of the recession (I think in December). Each photographer covered a specific location and then created a portfolio around the subject. You can find it on the Magnum site.

  5. #5
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    And we have to keep in mind the unemployment numbers do NOT include folks that are under-employed -- people working a parttime job (or two) while looking for fulltime work; and it does not include self-employed folks not able to make ends meet, and it does not include those that gave up on any hope of finding a job.

    Real unemployment numbers for the US are estimated over 18%, minimum, and as high high as 22%. At its worse, the great depression was round 25% unemployment.

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    Re: Things are bad...

    That is one scary as hell trend.

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    My reactions , poor production values. They needed to have not just driven around like they were watching animals in a nature preserve but gotten out and put people and their stories in the images. They should have engaged us with the people living there. Even Bruce "In you face", Gliden does that in his "Forclosures" series. (Florida, Detroit)

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    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    My reactions , poor production values. They needed to have not just driven around like they were watching animals in a nature preserve but gotten out and put people and their stories in the images. They should have engaged us with the people living there. Even Bruce "In you face", Gliden does that in his "Forclosures" series. (Florida, Detroit)
    SPOT ON Right...Very Well Put, John
    I totally Agree!!!!!

    Its a very Difficult & Sad Time for THE WORLD

  9. #9
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    My reactions , poor production values. They needed to have not just driven around like they were watching animals in a nature preserve but gotten out and put people and their stories in the images. They should have engaged us with the people living there. Even Bruce "In you face", Gliden does that in his "Forclosures" series. (Florida, Detroit)
    Agreed, and hence my point that we need a photographer with some time on their hands to document it Lange-ian style. To be more clear, I wasn't trying to imply the video was good, but rather that the situation is dire and perhaps worth documenting photographically...
    Jack
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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Youtube blocked access to that vid over here, says it's not available in my country.

    Things still look reasonably good over here, the Swedish unemployment has climbed at a faster rate than EU average but starting from a lower level. It's likely to get worse before it gets better. At the same time, real estate prices in Stockholm are climbing fast, up 11% in Q1, as a consequence of low interest rates. It's a bit paradoxical.
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  11. #11
    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agreed, and hence my point that we need a photographer with some time on their hands to document it Lange-ian style. To be more clear, I wasn't trying to imply the video was good, but rather that the situation is dire and perhaps worth documenting photographically...
    I'll put on my pedantic hat and say we don't need 'Lange-ian style' but rather Roy Stryker style. The FSA style of Dorothea Lange, Walker Evans, Arthur Rothstein, Ben Shahn, John Vachon, Marion Post Wolcott, Russell Lee, Jack Delano, John Collier, Jr., Carl Mydans and Gordon Parks was developed and fostered under him as head of the 'Historical Section' of FSA.

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    Re: Things are bad...

    That video loaded Ok here. Quite a surprise to see its that bad over there...

    In New Zealand the Govt has introduced, for Employers, Employees, to businesses that employ over 100 staff, and just announced for 50-100 staff businesses, a 9 day fortnight for workers. Its all voluntary to be agreed upon between employer/employee + ?maybe union? A few companies have volunteered an interest. The 10th working day is for employee education... paid 4 hours minimum pay by Govt, employer being asked to pay other 4 hours. Its a 2 year trial. A business can choose only one 6 month lot within the 2 years. I have not been following it all precisely though.

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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    That is one scary graphic. Moving to New Zealand

    I just have to... Now if you get 140 points, you are in... or 100-140 maybe/probably...

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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Very bad in deed! I wonder whether this situation will reach critical mass in the next 12 months or so.

    From a theoretical point of view, the system has failed, and reform is urgently needed. Reform from the core, starting with the FED, ECB, IMF Worldbank etc. would be required IMHO. Currently, I consider the G20 meeting a failure in that respect.

    I will not forget the interview with the Bank of Ireland CEO here, when asked about his paycuts, he mentioned to have cuts in the region of 50% this year. When asked what he has left, he answered ....around 2 Million Euro....

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    Re: Things are bad...

    A different view:

    Basically a cabal of large Investment Banks or similar managed to grow their businesses by taping into Asian Countries mounting $US dollar denominated surpluses over the last 10 years. Leverage on leverage on leverage underwritten by a whole bunch of derivative contracts with no thoughts of counter party risk - because the game was the world's ever largest PONZI scheme.

    This game saw every major financial center and government benefit massively from the associated growth and taxes received - a virtual circle of BS. The same cheap pool of money that underwrote the Clinton Administrations instructions for Freddie and Fannie to lend to the poor. A Government created subprime mortgage DISASTER - a PONZI scheme encouraged and condoned by Government Agencies - a politically expedient con created by the Politicians who are elected by the same interest groups who demanded access to capital - because it was their 'right' a small detail that they couldn't afford the money - no problemo! Except the no problemo has become a big problemo - for everyone - spreading a cancer of panic and loss into ever nook cranny of the capital system.

    Now what galls me the most is the common person - unfamiliar with just how much of an indebted serf he/she has allowed their person to become - fed on a diet of high fat other people's money - has the temerity to criticize and demean anyone associated with the finance industry at any level - because these 'evil capitalists' - gave us exactly what we asked for - with Government/ Central Bank and Treasury encouragement.

    Now the same personality type - has discovered an evil greater than smoking and climate change to point a sanctimonious finger at. Now the braying dogs of the left and all its sympathizers and are out for the blood of the idle, stupid and criminal 'rich'.

    Good luck with all that - capital is scarce, is on strike and is very mobile. Good luck with encouraging economic growth and jobs for your children by destroying the people who actually DO things.

    I am heartily sick of all the innuendo and smart arsedness that is permeating every corner of the world and creeping into the DNA of everyone.

    For sure don't blame the general failure of governance and regulation on those responsible for these issues - just blame your local banker for doing what his/her own shareholders demanded be done over the last 10 years.

    People are just so stupid - and they are going to stupid themselves into a Depression by supporting BS from BS artistes of the left and their loony friends. Feel good about chasing the evil 'rich' and the overpaid this and that.

    I dont feel one iota of sympathy towards people who over committed themselves and got into trouble - I feel sympathy for the people who actually saved their money and it ended up being 'loaned' to a bunch of care for nothing buyers of sub prime mortgages - most of who are now conveniently out of them - leaving their creditors with nothing except the keys to an empty property..

    both types of idjot got what was coming to them - the same for a whole bunch of thieves whose livelihood depended on keeping that Ponzi scheme going.

    Some people have actually preserved their clients money and been able to profit by careful management of risk and common sense. Some clients of good managers and decent banks - have been able to not only preserve their savings but also gain enormously because of the wisdom of going with the right broker or the right funds manager or the right banker.

    Your health is important - closely followed by your finances. Dont take either for granted.


    <end rant>

  16. #16
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    For sure don't blame the general failure of governance and regulation on those responsible for these issues - just blame your local banker for doing what his/her own shareholders demanded be done over the last 10 years.
    The local banker has nothing to say anymore since years here in Ireland. You know, in former times, your personal relationship with your local banker was important, not anymore. He/She has no power to take any decisions at all, they are nothing but glorified HR managers and paper pushers. Decisions are made in HQ by suits you never spoke with in your lifetime!

    Flippin Greed is the very cause of this failure in my opinion.

  17. #17
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by waynelake View Post
    I just have to... Now if you get 140 points, you are in... or 100-140 maybe/probably...


    Any way around this requirement:


    People invited to apply for residence (in New Zealand) will have to provide police certificates as evidence of good character for everyone 17 years and over included in their application.


    Some of us were just a lot of fun to be around -- what else can I say?!?

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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Any way around this requirement:


    People invited to apply for residence (in New Zealand) will have to provide police certificates as evidence of good character for everyone 17 years and over included in their application.


    Some of us were just a lot of fun to be around -- what else can I say?!?
    I know what you mean...
    But the other side of all the fun...
    I did a few times let young people here know to stay out of trouble...
    Like with a minor conviction, can not go to USA...
    I'm all good though...

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    I had to drive from Los Angeles to San Bernardino this morning and passed the rail yards in Fontana. There were rows of idle locomotives lined up on a track alongside the freeway. I didn't pay attention to my odometer right away, but from when I did, there were almost three miles of locos, nose to tail. This is a graphic indicator of how slow things are.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Any way around this requirement:


    People invited to apply for residence (in New Zealand) will have to provide police certificates as evidence of good character for everyone 17 years and over included in their application.


    Some of us were just a lot of fun to be around -- what else can I say?!?
    Damn that leaves me out , next country please.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I had to drive from Los Angeles to San Bernardino this morning and passed the rail yards in Fontana. There were rows of idle locomotives lined up on a track alongside the freeway. I didn't pay attention to my odometer right away, but from when I did, there were almost three miles of locos, nose to tail. This is a graphic indicator of how slow things are.
    Did you win or lose. Lawyer talk here
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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Have to return tomorrow. We finished testimony at 4 and the judge asked if we wanted to argue then or at 9:30 tomorrow. Before I could grab him by the throat, my co-counsel said tomorrow.

    But to quote a lawyer I used to work for when he was asked how court went: "Lose a few, continue a few."

  23. #23
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Not sure what your biggest concerns are Folks.

    My biggest worry ist that we may not recover from the current events! A bit tough for me to write that as it would require a lenghty in depth analysis from my historical point of view to make it reasonable.

    My bottom line is that we are in danger to loose the "nano thin layer" called civilisation, the very layer that seperates us from barbarism and anarchy.

    Real moral and ethical values that strengthen the foundation of every civilisation are dilluted to say the least, if not gone. We turned into a "quarterly reports society" and it failed completly. I am afraid, if we do not re adjust our core values and start acting accordingly, our very foundation is endangered to melt away like ice in the arctic. The impact of that crisis has not even begun to show its ugly face yet, it will take another 6 months until the real impact becomes more obvious in my opinion....

    The inherent vicious cycle would be recession -> depression -> war, and all I hope is that we will be able to stop this dynamic and avoid the worst case, but I am not holding my breath.... Really really sad. I find it heartbraking to see the cues of unemployed getting longer by the minute....

  24. #24
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Georg,

    totally agree.
    Its time for a revolution. Globalization is needed, not on economics but on moral, ethics and social behavior. Return to the real facts of mankind, to the essential values. That is NOT money or how to betray your neighbor. Time to get some strength from family and love. If not, mankind is doomed...
    We only have ONE earth but we deal with it as if have two of them. We only have one family but treat them mostly bad. Leaving home in the morning should be a celebration, a deep wish to see again.
    Georg, i feel there is a way. Be a forerunner. I try to do it too....
    Hope for a better world...
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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    I bet, well, not fair.... <grin> I know Jack as a somewhat similiar view, for different reasons may be, nevertheless! .... Concerning the chance of recovery that is....

    Klaus, there will be a point where I trust only one thing .... the loaded pumpgun in my office. Civil unrest and worse are phenomenons inevitably coming if "they" continue to treat people as if they are nothing but.... human capital!

    Return to the real facts of mankind, to the essential values.
    Here is the problem.... such values have to be first point agendas, like.... NOW! This is global, hence, the time of national interests is over! - Please! - This recession is a kindergarden compared with the more than likely economical impacts climate change will cause on every continent, starting in Asia!. We have a choice here! Of course, this is a task on a scale we never faced before, but we have to .... !
    Last edited by Georg Baumann; 24th April 2009 at 12:34.

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Maybe we all need to go back and read, "Small Is Beautiful: Economics As If People Mattered."

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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  27. #27
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Dublin.... Texas....

    Hi John! - I used to live close to Dublin - Ireland - quite some time.

    That would be nice, wouldn't it! Read one book and that's it.

    We have to work a helluva lot if we want results.... The politicians, where I am, have other interests!

    Honestly, ... and this is personal in deed!

    I lost trust in democracy, not that I ever had such, but in my world, we are governed by suits who know ****!

    This is a stupid totalitarian form of burocracy, and .... hold on to your butts.... inefficient!

    I shall be excused now, I am celebrating birthday and have to attend.... besides, drunk as Hell .... cheers!



    Thanks John!

  28. #28
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by waynelake View Post
    I know what you mean...
    But the other side of all the fun...
    I did a few times let young people here know to stay out of trouble...
    Like with a minor conviction, can not go to USA...
    I'm all good though...

    I guess it isn't as bad as Australia telling someone they can't come in because they have a criminal record.

  29. #29
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    I shall be excused now, I am celebrating birthday and have to attend.... besides, drunk as Hell .... cheers!



    Thanks John!
    Happy Birthday

    and yes . . . I am english, but that was NOT meant ironically

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    I guess it isn't as bad as Australia telling someone they can't come in because they have a criminal record.
    I think its if have marijuana conviction, can not go to USA.

    I understand humor, but Australia? Theres rivalry between NZ/Aust...
    If can not get into NZ (applying for citizenship), Australia would be next choice. Any Kiwi can go to Australia for long as they want, like even decades, and vise versa.

    I think if anyone were to go to Sth Island, NZ, and longer the better, would not want to leave, a photographic nirvana, weather permitting...

    What some others are posting, is maybe similar to what I've thought about. Like how bad... a way out... Japan went through a decade in the '90s... I do not know precisely, but economy crashed, the govt putting money into development, the economy started to recover, make progress. They stopped putting more money back into development and it crashed again, 10 years before recovering.

  31. #31
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by waynelake View Post

    I understand humor, but Australia? Theres rivalry between NZ/Aust...
    Well, I was just considering the irony -- Australia not allowing someone in because of a criminal background, but the whole country was founded as a dumping ground for England's criminals. Not like the US -- we are only England's street urchins.

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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Well, I was just considering the irony -- Australia not allowing someone in because of a criminal background, but the whole country was founded as a dumping ground for England's criminals. Not like the US -- we are only England's street urchins.
    Well now I understand...
    ...and, Mmm... any excuse to escape England...

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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Well, I was just considering the irony -- Australia not allowing someone in because of a criminal background, but the whole country was founded as a dumping ground for England's criminals. Not like the US -- we are only England's street urchins.
    As an Australian, I love being able to tell North Americans - mainly those from USA - that they too were settled by convicts... [And not all of the colonies in Australia were convict-settled - some were settled by free settlers. ]


    Up to the War of Independence the Brits sent large numbers of their felons to the colonies in America. Then they had to store them on hulks in the Thames. Eventually they decided to ship them to colonies in the newer world...

    According to NPR -

    'In 1718, the British Parliament passed the Transportation Act, under which England began sending its imprisoned convicts to be sold as indentured servants in the American colonies. While the law provoked outrage among many colonists -- Benjamin Franklin equated it to packing up North American rattlesnakes and sending them all to England -- the influx of ex-convicts provided cheap and immediate labor for many planters and merchants. After 1718, approximately 60,000 convicts, dubbed "the King's passengers," were sent from England to America. Ninety percent of them stayed in Maryland and Virginia. Although some returned to England once their servitude was over, many remained and began their new lives in the colonies.'

    Another reference - 'In 1769 Dr. Johnson, speaking of Americans, said to a friend, “Sir, they are a race of convicts and ought to be content with anything we may allow them short of hanging.” In the latest edition of Boswell, who chronicled this saying, it is explained by the following footnote: “Convicts were sent to nine of the American settlements. According to one estimate, about 2000 had been sent for many years annually. Dr. Lang, after comparing various estimates, concludes that the number sent might be about 50,000 altogether.”1 Again, in the Encyclopædia Britannica, under the article “Botany Bay,” we read: “On the revolt of the New England colonies, the convict establishments in America were no longer available, and so the attention of the British government was turned to Botany Bay, and in 1787 a penal settlement was formed there.” In keeping with these statements is a conversation related in the autobiography of Dr. Francis Lieber (p. 180). The scene was a breakfast in 1844 at Dr. Ferguson’s in London. “I remarked how curious a fact it was that all American women look so genteel and refined, even the lowest; small heads, fine silky hair, delicate and marked eyebrows. The Doctor answered, ‘Oh, that is easily accounted for. The super-abundance of public women, who are always rather good-looking, were sent over to America in early times.’”'

    This is a learning site...

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  34. #34
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Happy Birthday

    and yes . . . I am english, but that was NOT meant ironically
    Hehehe! Thanks man!

  35. #35
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post

    As an Australian, I love being able to tell North Americans - mainly those from USA - that they too were settled by convicts...

    Not my family -- they weren't felons until they got here.

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    Senior Member atanabe's Avatar
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    Re: Things are bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
    . . . After 1718, approximately 60,000 convicts, dubbed "the King's passengers," were sent from England to America. Ninety percent of them stayed in Maryland and Virginia. Although some returned to England once their servitude was over, many remained and began their new lives in the colonies.'

    John
    I think the majority took jobs as Senators and Congressmen
    footnote: Washington DC is in Maryland bordered by Virginia
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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