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Thread: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

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    Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Recently I posted a thread about China's supply chain and licensing agreements which make it difficult to ascertain if a camera maker uses Chinese products. For some photographers it's an important issue to not use photography products obtained through the morally reprehensible practice of forced slave labor that has recently been published in the media. So, why the "closed" thread whose heading actually says, "Anything Goes"? My intent was to not make it a political discussion, but more of a thought provoking discussion of this practice as it relates to photography. Considering this is a photography forum, one would think it has value as a discussion with other photographers. Showing benevolence towards humanity is hardly political.
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Recently I posted a thread about China's supply chain and licensing agreements which make it difficult to ascertain if a camera maker uses Chinese products. For some photographers it's an important issue to not use photography products obtained through the morally reprehensible practice of forced slave labor that has recently been published in the media. So, why the "closed" thread whose heading actually says, "Anything Goes"? My intent was to not make it a political discussion, but more of a thought provoking discussion of this practice as it relates to photography. Considering this is a photography forum, one would think it has value as a discussion with other photographers. Showing benevolence towards humanity is hardly political.
    While I agree with you about the principle of open debate, this particular theme would quickly become very ugly. While China seen through western eyes and in particular western media, western imperialist practices look very much worse once you move to other parts of the world. The definition of evil depends on what glasses you wear.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    western imperialist practices look very much worse
    Really?

    Tell that to those in Nepal ... or the Uighurs ... let alone those in Hong Kong ... how about the Rep of China?

    There is so much disinformation about the level of repression, aggression and oppression inherent in today's
    China ...

    Tiananmen square ....

    Covid 19 dissimulation ... deny its existence while you capture the market of protective masks ... gel ... 650K deaths ... counts rising.

    Get a grip ... they plan to control the world and will subjugate any who are vulnerable ...

    Neville Chamberlain or the defrocked Winston Churchill ... I will stand with the latter.

    You are so wrong ... dont have the vocabulary to suggest how so ...

    BTW ... the west sacrificed it's young to save Europe and the East ... Phillipines the whole Eastern rim Thailand included... from fascism and Eastern Imperialism.

    You struck a nerve ... that runs deep ... so much dissimulation ... in my youth we called it bullshit ... smells the same today.
    Last edited by docmoore; 1 Week Ago at 17:12.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The definition of evil depends on what glasses you wear.
    And that is a very dangerous sentiment ... reminds me of C S Lewis and The Screwtape Letters ...
    Post-modern reductionist view of the world. No absolutes ... right defined by whatever the circus calls good.
    But I posit that it will not stand in the face of history nor in the light of a greater power that will define our eternal disposition.

    Dont misunderstand my disagreement with your tenets ... the west will be ultimately accountable for its errors and its historical transgressions ... yet that does not absolve the present Chinese regime of its failings, omissions and aggressions.

    I am not one who favors passive boycotts ... but would rather see the world community call the disgrace that this current regime represents and hope for a better future for the Chinese people. The number of artists, activists and Christians who have suffered repression, imprisonment, torture and death beggars description.

    Acquiescence should not equate with agreement nor genteel accommodation ...

    And truth is not defined by the glass you wear ... but rather you ultimately are defined by the truth or (un)truth you share ...

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Really?

    Tell that to those in Nepal ... or the Uighurs ... let alone those in Hong Kong ... how about the Rep of China?

    There is so much disinformation about the level of repression, aggression and oppression inherent in today's
    China ...

    Tiananmen square ....

    Covid 19 dissimulation ... deny its existence while you capture the market of protective masks ... gel ... 650K deaths ... counts rising.

    Get a grip ... they plan to control the world and will subjugate any who are vulnerable ...

    Neville Chamberlain or the defrocked Winston Churchill ... I will stand with the latter.

    You are so wrong ... dont have the vocabulary to suggest how so ...

    BTW ... the west sacrificed it's young to save Europe and the East ... Phillipines the whole Eastern rim Thailand included... from fascism and Eastern Imperialism.

    You struck a nerve ... that runs deep ... so much dissimulation ... in my youth we called it bullshit ... smells the same today.
    Here we go...:

    Some of the nations and areas that western countries have destroyed or caused causualties in the hundreds of thousands:

    - Libya (Only ten years ago one of the most prosperous countries in Africa, now a centre for slave trade and immigration to Europe)
    - Iraq
    - Afghanistan (19 years and counting)
    - Cambodia (The bombing that paved the way for Pol Pot)
    - Laos (People still die from unexploded American bombs)
    - Vietnam
    - Philippines (Several hundred thousand were killed during American colonialism)
    - North Korea (3 million killed, and all civil infrastructure destroyed according to American figures)
    - Iran (Was a democratic country until the UK and the US decided that a dictator worked better for them)
    - India (Too much to list)
    - Congo (10 million+)

    ... and the list goes on.

    Then there are places like Diego Garcia, where the population was simply removed to make space for an American military base. They were moved to Chagos Archipelago, Mauritius or Seychelles where they still live in poverty.

    The list of European colonies in Africa is endless, too many to mention. Congo is listed above. Let's just say that their resources have been stolen on a continuous basis for centuries, without leaving much, if anything, to the locals other than slave labour. Latin America... endless American supported coups, few if any to the better. Cuba, sanctioned for 60 years for no good reason whatsoever.

    Then there's support for brutal dictators worldwide. President Suharto killed 230,000 people in in East Timor alone, with active American, British and Australian support. How many he killed in the rest of Indonesia, we'll never know.

    Yes, China is an authoritarian country, and has been so for more than 2,000 years. There's a long list of human abuse and discrimination, and there are environmental crimes. I don't like their business practices to say the least. I meet them as competitors every week of the year, and it's a challenge, but:

    - They don't bomb or in other ways kill people in other countries
    - They have 1 - one - military base outside their own border compared to America's more than 800
    - They have illegally annexed islands in the South China Sea, but USA has annexed islands for military use all over the Pacific Ocean
    - They have never used nuclear weapons at war
    - Apart from a minor incident with Vietnam 40 years ago, they haven't attacked another nation for hundreds of years

    No, I don't like China much, and I don't go there, but my criticism will always be based on facts and realities, not on headlines, and it must be seen in a context. Western countries are still running their imperialist agendas, although in other ways than a hundred years ago. Until that stops, my right to criticise China is limited.
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    They are plenty of forums where you can discuss politics, Luminous Landscape comes to mind....

    A good example of what happens when you fail to protect your brand and hard won reputation.


    Paul Grundy

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    I agree 100% with Bob's judgement.
    Please move this kind of discussion to a more appropriate forum.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    ... the west will be ultimately accountable for its errors and its historical transgressions ... yet that does not absolve the present Chinese regime of its failings, omissions and aggressions.

    I am not one who favors passive boycotts ...
    Your points are well reasoned and many here, myself included are disgusted with many present and historical acts of our government.

    As you pointed out in another of jd’s boycott threads .... multinational corporations do notice what impacts their bottom line ... less so those funded and sanctioned by governments.

    Honestly it is almost impossible to buy anything that is not partially sourced from China these days.

    Sunset Bar was the catch-all for other discussions ... the difference here is that unlike LuLa most maintain a modicum of restraint in their posts

    If Bob and the mods want these moved ... now that I read his post ... I will honor his directive

    Apologies for entering this discussion
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Two things:

    - Like Bob and Godfrey I'm not in favour of these discussions on GetDPI. Not because I'm against debate but because I believe there are better places to have that debate.
    - No content was removed or altered, only the thread closed with the request to move the discussion to another forum. I think that's moderation, not censorship

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    You can close this thread and sweep it under the rug of cognitive dissonance as you enjoy your new shiny cameras.
    You cannot erase history, but we can embrace social changes (and ironically) technology with more knowledge to the plight of those who historically couldn't speak for themselves. This is simply about educating one's self about the source of products that use forced save labor. Your ethical and moral principals may vary.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    You can close this thread and sweep it under the rug of cognitive dissonance as you enjoy your new shiny cameras.
    You cannot erase history, but we can embrace social changes (and ironically) technology with more knowledge to the plight of those who historically couldn't speak for themselves. This is simply about educating one's self about the source of products that use forced save labor. Your ethical and moral principals may vary.
    There are plenty of places to discuss these issues. Not every place has to be a center of such discussion.

    We have more issues with suffering and prejudice right here at home in the USA that we could be discussing too, and these issues are at least as important and critical as whether some part of my camera equipment is manufactured in China, and whether *all* products manufactured in China are being produced by slave labor, etc. If we open the discussion on GetDPI to all of these topics in every context, there would be no point to having GetDPI as a PHOTOGRAPHY site.

    Let's keep this forum focused on camera equipment and photography topics, not the plight and suffering of people all over the world. There's no reason to disparage everyone on the forum as "sweeping these issues under the rug." That does little to motivate people to do other than make them want you to be quiet. I'm certain that all the good people here hear the news, study the situation in the world at large, cry over the injustice and cruelty it represents, get angry and act as apropos, and all that. I'm also certain that they would like some place to discuss things that exist to uplift them with art and joy separate from those much heavier, darker considerations.

    Please follow the advice of the forum moderators.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Ah, something good was brought up here: CS Lewis - The Screwtape Letters. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend.

    Joel
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    "While the list of Chinese human rights abuses (and other unacceptable practices) is long, it isn't in any way sensational considering the size and population of the country."

    Jordan,

    That is a TERRIBLE rationalization. I adore your posts and pictures, but any amount of human rights abuses are one too many.

    Joel

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    I understand this is a sensitive topic, but this does relate to photographers and should be part of a discussion with an awareness towards our relationship with photography. This is not meant to be a vexing question with endless discussions to incite trolls or form adversarial groups with like minded ideas. This is not a social justice warrior takeover either. Consider this to be a selfish attempt at altruistic ideas and my capacity to observe the world, my relationship and relative importance within it and the effects we have as consumers. You gotta start somewhere.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 1 Week Ago at 13:18.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here we go...:


    - Apart from a minor incident with Vietnam 40 years ago, they haven't attacked another nation for hundreds of years
    So Nepal and Tibet were ... according to your list ... not distinct countries ... similar to their assertion that Taiwan is a daughter state.
    They displaced, killed and subjugated more than a million individuals living peacefully in those areas to unspeakable brutality.

    Do not want to prolong this difficult discussion ... more so for some than others ... but after being thrown out of the country while in transit
    to provide medical and surgical humanitarian support for children with heart defects in Nepal ... I have no love for China and its xenophobic
    politics.

    Done ...

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    I don't love anywhere that cruelty is accepted as normal.

    That said, I've dealt with a Chinese company directly to have rims made for my bicycle. After the first set of wheels that they made for me were lost (the bike was stolen) and I ordered another identical set for the replacement bike, They have been nothing but warm, compassionate people who went the extra mile to help me out: gave me a discount on the rims, put me at the head of the line, and suffered through the craziness to get my rims shipped to me as the Pandemic closed off shipping options and cost four times as much as it originally should have.

    Not all Chinese people are heartless xenophobes or slavers. I can't make that gross and unfair generalization about a people whom I do not know well enough understand, and I refuse to listen to people who paint such absolutistic pictures of them. The same kinds of horror and shite can be said of many companies in the USA and elsewhere as well.

    It's an imperfect world. Do what satisfies your ethical and humanitarian urges. Don't force your worldview on other people. Discuss these issues in the appropriate places.

    And please let's not continue with this thread on this forum. The forum moderators have requested it be taken elsewhere. Respect their desire to keep this forum productive and focused on photography.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Imperceptive comments and generalizations are perceived as tedious and inane as they don't represent the actuality of current events or the intent of this thread.
    Photographers in general, are very aware of their surroundings and have an appreciation of this relationship with our environment and ultimately each other. Perhaps the thread should read, "Do Photographers Want Cameras If Made with Forced, Slave Labor?". That might not be as provocative, but more to the point as it relates to a photography forum.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 6 Days Ago at 07:58.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Imperceptive comments and generalizations are perceived as tedious and inane as they don't represent the actuality of current events or the intent of this thread.
    Photographers in general, are very aware of their surroundings and have an appreciation of this relationship with our environment and ultimately each other. Perhaps the thread should read, "Do Photographers Want Cameras If Made with Forced, Slave Labor?". That might not be as provocative, but more to the point as it relates to a photography forum.

    The problem here is the straw man argument, you made an accusation, that camera equipment is made with slave labor in China, Prove it. Simple - Prove it.

    As far a self righteous goes, why not follow the credo that charity (and for that matter judgment) begins at home.
    Last edited by alajuela; 6 Days Ago at 12:56.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    These are not fallacious arguments made from malicious hearsay. These are numerous reports from a multitude of credible sources and I was just commenting on this as it could relate to photography. Your indignation is misdirected. A Bill is being considered called “The Slave-Free Business Certification Act,” it increases the corporate supply chain disclosure requirements while mandating regular audits. It will also require CEOs to certify that their companies’ supply chains are not participating in forced slave labor and will create penalties for firms that fail basic minimum standards for human rights.
    I want to know if what I purchase is being produced by slave labor. It's just that simple, no accusations. I'm dismayed by all the pushback, but considering today's events, not surprised. I agree, that charity and judgement do begin at home, hence, my initial comment. Good point!

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    [QUOTE=alajuela;823108]The problem here is the straw man augment, you made an accusation, that camera equipment is made with slave labor in China, Prove it. Simple - Prove it.

    Pas-de Problème, mon ami.

    A report by The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (an independent non-partisan think tank) identifies 82 foreign and Chinese companies directly or indirectly benefiting from the use of Uyghur workers outside Xinjiang through potentially abusive labour transfer programs.

    Among them are Apple, Google, Huawei, Nokia, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony; and Amazon, BMW, Acer, Calvin Klein, General Motors, Gap, HP, Jaguar, LG, Mercedes Benz, Adidas, Puma, Volkswagen and Victorias Secret! Etc, etc.

    I have long held the opinion that somewhere along the line of most manufacturing processes is a slave. And that includes the 8 year old girl who works in the DRC mining cobalt (that ends up in mobile phones) for long hours and earning a pittance.

    We are a sad old planet.

    Peace and love.

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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    These are not fallacious arguments made from malicious hearsay. These are numerous reports from a multitude of credible sources and I was just commenting on this as it could relate to photography. Your indignation is misdirected. A Bill is being considered called “The Slave-Free Business Certification Act,” it increases the corporate supply chain disclosure requirements while mandating regular audits. It will also require CEOs to certify that their companies’ supply chains are not participating in forced slave labor and will create penalties for firms that fail basic minimum standards for human rights.
    I want to know if what I purchase is being produced by slave labor. It's just that simple, no accusations. I'm dismayed by all the pushback, but considering today's events, not surprised. I agree, that charity and judgement do begin at home, hence, my initial comment. Good point!
    Point taken and appreciated,

    I worked and lived in Asia from 1999 - 2016 one of my direct responsibilities was labor and human rights compliance - where I personally with my team and using BV and ITS for forensic payroll audits, inspected hundreds of factories throughout out Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Viet Nam, South Korea, Bangladesh, Mongolia, Pakistan and of course China. All the countries have their own particular issues. I think I can say with more creditably than some of the talking heads, on TV, that slave labor is not prevalent especially on export items if at all. I think there is a lot of click bait and hyperbole, Slave Labor bring up the connotation or Southern Plantations in the US where Humans were bought and sold as though they were horses. where most likely if is more similar to making license plates in US prisons. Calling these Concentration Camps, brings up images of WW II - My father was in these camps in Poland, Czechoslovakia, (yes he had the tattoo number on his left forearm) so I tend to resent the quick use of words.

    I am not discounting nor am I excusing and even less condoning Chinese draconian measures that they take with own citizens. Justice in a legal sense we are accustomed to, does not exist. I have seen first hand US companies withdraw from Chinese factories for payroll irregularities, that went uncorrected with 60 days, I agree with your intentions and good conscience, I am highly skeptical of talking heads , that are just that talking heads, what they say today and what they say tomorrow with the same conviction, has no accountability. Just anecdotally, I have seen NGOs get involved and come down on "Child Labor" (not in China it was Turkey) where they threaten factories closing them down, YES nobody wants child labor - except the mothers that have 15 year old and don't want them on the streets hustling, drugs, petty crime or worst. My point being If you don't want child labor, then use your NGO money, to set up vocational schools. Identifying problems is the easy sexy part, solving the cause, is the sweaty unglamorous work

    Sorry to run on like this, but I think things need to be said, and drama has no part in this, Human dignity should be universal, where it gets complicated is with cultures and chauvinism which must temper things, at least hyperbole. To say again, I agree with you, I personally would never buy ANYTHING made by people in concentration camps. My point (not directed at you but at the subject at hand) is also summed up with - "have you ever been on some of the Indian Reservations in the Western United States", I say not directed at you but at some of the others that might read this and their self righteousness clouds the reality of Universal Human Rights, making it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
    Philip
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Point taken and appreciated,

    I worked and lived in Asia from 1999 - 2016 one of my direct responsibilities was labor and human rights compliance - where I personally with my team and using BV and ITS for forensic payroll audits, inspected hundreds of factories throughout out Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Viet Nam, South Korea, Bangladesh, Mongolia, Pakistan and of course China. All the countries have their own particular issues. I think I can say with more creditably than some of the talking heads, on TV, that slave labor is not prevalent especially on export items if at all. I think there is a lot of click bait and hyperbole, Slave Labor bring up the connotation or Southern Plantations in the US where Humans were bought and sold as though they were horses. where most likely if is more similar to making license plates in US prisons. Calling these Concentration Camps, brings up images of WW II - My father was in these camps in Poland, Czechoslovakia, (yes he had the tattoo number on his left forearm) so I tend to resent the quick use of words.

    I am not discounting nor am I excusing and even less condoning Chinese draconian measures that they take with own citizens. Justice in a legal sense we are accustomed to, does not exist. I have seen first hand US companies withdraw from Chinese factories for payroll irregularities, that went uncorrected with 60 days, I agree with your intentions and good conscience, I am highly skeptical of talking heads , that are just that talking heads, what they say today and what they say tomorrow with the same conviction, has no accountability. Just anecdotally, I have seen NGOs get involved and come down on "Child Labor" (not in China it was Turkey) where they threaten factories closing them down, YES nobody wants child labor - except the mothers that have 15 year old and don't want them on the streets hustling, drugs, petty crime or worst. My point being If you don't want child labor, then use your NGO money, to set up vocational schools. Identifying problems is the easy sexy part, solving the cause, is the sweaty unglamorous work

    Sorry to run on like this, but I think things need to be said, and drama has no part in this, Human dignity should be universal, where it gets complicated is with cultures and chauvinism which must temper things, at least hyperbole. To say again, I agree with you, I personally would never buy ANYTHING made by people in concentration camps. My point (not directed at you but at the subject at hand) is also summed up with - "have you ever been on some of the Indian Reservations in the Western United States", I say not directed at you but at some of the others that might read this and their self righteousness clouds the reality of Universal Human Rights, making it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
    Thank you for that comment. I completely agree and appreciate the time you took to share this. It can be difficult to explain complex matters, but you've got me thinking more realistically. All the Best!
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    [QUOTE=gandolfi;823111]
    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    The problem here is the straw man augment, you made an accusation, that camera equipment is made with slave labor in China, Prove it. Simple - Prove it.

    Pas-de Problème, mon ami.

    A report by The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (an independent non-partisan think tank) identifies 82 foreign and Chinese companies directly or indirectly benefiting from the use of Uyghur workers outside Xinjiang through potentially abusive labour transfer programs.

    Among them are Apple, Google, Huawei, Nokia, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony; and Amazon, BMW, Acer, Calvin Klein, General Motors, Gap, HP, Jaguar, LG, Mercedes Benz, Adidas, Puma, Volkswagen and Victorias Secret! Etc, etc.

    I have long held the opinion that somewhere along the line of most manufacturing processes is a slave. And that includes the 8 year old girl who works in the DRC mining cobalt (that ends up in mobile phones) for long hours and earning a pittance.

    We are a sad old planet.

    Peace and love.
    "The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) is a defence and strategic policy think tank based in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, founded by the Australian government and partly funded by the Australian Department of Defence.

    ASPI's 2018-19 annual report states that it received some funding from the Embassy of Japan and Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Australia, as well as from state governments and defence companies, such as Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, Thales Group, and Raytheon Technologies."


    - Wikipedia

    They may or may not be trustworthy, but with that list of sponsors, it's hardly "an independent non-partisan think tank". Most of the funders can easilly be defined as among China's most prominent adversaries. And terein lies the core of the problem with these reports. While most or all of the content is probably true, it tells only one side of the story. While I certainly don't approve of the Chinese methods, it's important to remember that more than half of those taken out of poverty worldwide the last few decades are in China, helped by the Chinese communist policies, including in the Xinjiang province.

    Most of what is conveyed through media these days is propaganda. Most of it is also true, but when important parts of the truth is ommited, we don't get the whole picture.

    Here's another piece of propaganda. I'm sure most or all of this is true too, but again, it only shows one side of the coin:

    https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/07/05...ot-being-told/
    https://www.alamy.com/search/imagere...=1&plno=244636
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  24. #24
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    As I educate myself on this topic, I find there's widely varied opinions and most comments bring value to this discussion as it relates to photography. With the exception of a few comments, this was never about condemning a country or their culture. Sensitive topics are the most difficult discernment, but I think ultimately, allows more objectivity.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 3 Days Ago at 13:46.

  25. #25
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    Michiel Schierbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I agree 100% with Bob's judgement.
    Please move this kind of discussion to a more appropriate forum.

    G
    First you agree with an opinion and then you say move it to the appropiate forum. Bit strange.

  26. #26
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    First you agree with an opinion and then you say move it to the appropiate forum. Bit strange.
    Is the point just to be bitchy, Michiel?

    Bob's judgement was to cease this discussion here and move the discussion to a more appropriate forum. I agree with that.

    Re: Made in China
    Please continue this thread on the political forum of your choice.
    thanks
    -bob
    G

  27. #27
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    Re: Sunset Bar says anything goes, so why censor?

    Appropriate forum meaning on another planet ....

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