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Do you long to transition from MFD to LF?

Ai_Print

Active member
I tried 8x10 for a few years starting around the pandemic but since my enlargers can only handle up to 4x5, I sold all the 8x10 related stuff off a few months ago. 8x10 contact prints while pretty, were a *very* expensive limitation considering how good 4x5 looks enlarged.
I do however have three 4x5 cameras and along with medium format film, I love to produce prints in my darkroom from them.

The day I stop making real prints in a real darkroom is the day I stop doing photography at all.
 

cunim

Well-known member
Scanning with a digital back and a proper setup can exceed the quality you get via drum scanners. The 105 on a stable repro strand and will produce incredible scans.
Paul, I know this has been discussed a lot elsewhere, but I am not sure any area scanner can exceed the quality of a good drum. Depends on what you mean by quality. If it is resolution, then yes, perhaps, depending on the size of the film and your patience for stitching. If it is accuracy then no. Drums rule. That said, I don't think accuracy matters for photography, because the photos are creative interpretations of the real world. We manipulate lighting, camera settings, post processing - all to make photos that look good. A typical photo of a sunset is not what that sunset really looks like. Scanning is just another part of the creative process for a photographer.

If we want the best accuracy (using film as a quantitative or archival medium), the requirements can be different. I started out drum scanning 8 x 10 radiographic films. Did hundreds of those. Then I built a variety of CCD camera scanning systems because drum scanners were such a PITA, not because they gave inferior results.

When I sent some of my 8 x 10 photographs away for drum scanning (aargh, so expensive) the results were good and clearly more resolving at high OD values than what I could get from a digital back. I am not saying camera scanning is bad, or that an Epson 750 is junk. I am just saying drums have their uses and you might want to send a few of your best films out just to see what they look like from a drum.

I am impressed by what P1 does with its archival systems, and with what many photographers are doing with camera-based scanners. As you say, a properly set up camera system can yield great results. Horses for courses.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Paul, I know this has been discussed a lot elsewhere, but I am not sure any area scanner can exceed the quality of a good drum. Depends on what you mean by quality. If it is resolution, then yes, perhaps, depending on the size of the film and your patience for stitching. If it is accuracy then no. Drums rule. That said, I don't think accuracy matters for photography, because the photos are creative interpretations of the real world. We manipulate lighting, camera settings, post processing - all to make photos that look good. A typical photo of a sunset is not what that sunset really looks like. Scanning is just another part of the creative process for a photographer.

If we want the best accuracy (using film as a quantitative or archival medium), the requirements can be different. I started out drum scanning 8 x 10 radiographic films. Did hundreds of those. Then I built a variety of CCD camera scanning systems because drum scanners were such a PITA, not because they gave inferior results.

When I sent some of my 8 x 10 photographs away for drum scanning (aargh, so expensive) the results were good and clearly more resolving at high OD values than what I could get from a digital back. I am not saying camera scanning is bad, or that an Epson 750 is junk. I am just saying drums have their uses and you might want to send a few of your best films out just to see what they look like from a drum.

I am impressed by what P1 does with its archival systems, and with what many photographers are doing with camera-based scanners. As you say, a properly set up camera system can yield great results. Horses for courses.
I really dug into this a while back, commissioning scans, etc. I would even have no problem going all the way and getting a big Dainippon with Xenon lamp in my basement if I felt the need.

So two things:

1) Accuracy – you really need to invest in your setup to get this one right - heavy duty repro stand, high end perpendicular negative holder with glass flattening or alternatively an air gun which pressed the neg against a surface before shooting. You could also use a flash to freeze capture moment in conjunction with a copal shutter or an Alpa FPS. I have heard of air pressure systems with flash, but get very good results with laser aligned glass holders.

2) Look – there's a difference in how the negs look as a combination of negative inversion profiles, light source (flextight is a cheap cold neon lamp for example with not so good CRI) and capture electronics (photodiades reading out RGB through old circuitry or the famed trilinear Kodak CCD used in IQSmarts, Flextights).

The main reason for me to get into drum scanning would be similar to the reason to do a C-Print – for colour representation of film based on yesteryear's look - that's it. For sharpness and detail, as long as you get your setup right which most don't - it has been superceded IMHO.

The problem with the IQ4 is that it captures too much detail and a a lot wider gamut than legacy systems. To get the saturation and gamut of legacy fine art prints you'd need to emulate a chain which chips off quality so to say at various stages in the pre-processing if you go IQ4-Injket vs. Heidelberg-C-Print. It is possible, but then again not, because the analogue chain has non-linear intra-relationships which are difficult to emulate via simple image profiling techniques which just capture the translation between two ideal states, but fail to account for non-linear fringe cases. Ie, high-key scan on Flextight and overxposed portra, printed carefully via an experienced operator, etc.

Sharpness - I can very quickly do a 2-way stitch of a 6x7 neg via laser alignment which blows away the Heidelberg equivalent. The colours though ... it looks different, not better or worse. And that different looks like the stuff in museums ... so this is why I'd still get a drum scanner. Just for the look.

The main reason you'd want to fork over 20k for a Flextight X5 today is to get the flat look the system gives your from scans which you can achieve via repro scanning, but it will take you a lot of post processing for each shot while the Flextight is effortless and looks like fine art as it has been ingrained in our collective memory from countless gallery visits and fashion adverts.

There's a reason the wet dream - pardon my language - of a photography BFA is to own a Flextight and not an IQ4 and a repro stand. The scans just look fine art every time. Effortlessly.
 
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Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Nope to what? What's your point and what is your argument?

X5s are the only legacy scanning system that has retained value. Three reasons:

1) It can be rented out and make money in walk-in-labs
2) It is fast enough and convenient enough compared to modern scanning methods and can do LF
3) The look and famed Flextight crispness which is a function of the virtual drum design, the Rodenstock lens and post-processing in combination with the light source which gives it a certain tint combined with the Kodak CCD

I know what I am talking about – I've been on the hunt for an X5 for a while and every good one gets snapped up by scan labs right now at 20k prices. Reasons are above – you can ask any scan lab running walk-in rental service if they'd ever consider selling the no.1 unsupervised money making machine in the shop.

If you want a good job – Flextight repair specialist in London or NYC and you are golden.
 

cunim

Well-known member
If I can summarise: Those of us who used to do LF fall into two classes: the rational and the emotional. The rational ones know that, for them, LF is just not worth it (cost, workflow, portability) and they are content. The emotional ones still feel the call but we may be prevented from answering by those same negative factors. Unlike the rationalists, we do feel regret. I guess I already knew that when I asked the question.

Sinar P2, Rodenstock 360mm, Ilford 8 x 10

360podfinal.jpg
 

darr

Well-known member
I entered this world wielding a paintbrush, leaving my mark on my mother's walls with the earliest strokes of graffiti that hinted at my artistic destiny. With creativity flowing through my veins, it was no surprise that I inherited the artist's mantle from my family lineage. However, practicality dictated that my artistic pursuits should lean towards the commercial side to sustain myself financially. I'd have to foot the bill myself if I wanted to attend art school, which I did. It was tough, but I shot weddings to cover food, rent, and film.

After a fulfilling career as a commercial artist and photographer, I made a solemn vow: when the moment arrived for me to shoot purely for pleasure, I wouldn't hold back. And true to my word, I haven't. I share this snippet of my journey because, as an artist, I always find a way.

While I dream of owning an 8x10 Deardorff, reality nudges me back to earth. Yet, I understand the importance of a creative outlet to nourish my soul.
So, I compromise, letting my little Ebony 4x5 fill the void of an 8x10 in my heart. :)
 

akaru

Active member
Would be an emotional play for me. I do dearly love tech cams, as they give much of that back. It still feels like a “hack” so to speak (the positive meaning of the word). But there is still a magic to the ground glass, especially on LF. Not sure I have the back strength or cargo space, but ULF is appealing in that way, and I suppose with a lot of patience and a windless day it might still beat even next gen sensors.
 

Pieter 12

Well-known member
...The rational ones know that, for them, LF is just not worth it (cost, workflow, portability) and they are content.
A nice technical camera, lens and digital back costs maybe 15 grand. A new LF film set-up could run from the low-end $400 (Intrepid without a lens) to quite expensive $7750 (Linhof et al, no lens), and used ones are much less than that. Has anyone done an analysis of the cost of an MF digital set-up, including a computer, calibrated monitor and output costs vs. LF outfit and film, processing and printing (not scanning and printing digitally)? My gut feeling is film ends up costing less, counting in that when shooting film fewer exposures are made vs digital.
 

darr

Well-known member
A nice technical camera, lens and digital back costs maybe 15 grand. A new LF film set-up could run from the low-end $400 (Intrepid without a lens) to quite expensive $7750 (Linhof et al, no lens), and used ones are much less than that. Has anyone done an analysis of the cost of an MF digital set-up, including a computer, calibrated monitor and output costs vs. LF outfit and film, processing and printing (not scanning and printing digitally)? My gut feeling is film ends up costing less, counting in that when shooting film fewer exposures are made vs digital.
Depending on the camera and lens choice, a pre-owned 4x5 technical camera will be less expensive than a comparable digital one.
Drawing from my personal experience, in December 2019, I purchased a complete Sinar Norma kit from Germany for EUR 439, equivalent to around US $467.00 today.

This kit includes the camera, a Schneider 150 lens, a shutter, a cable, and a tripod mount, as depicted in the photograph below. The only components absent were film holders.

There are bargains out there, but we must determine the system we desire and exercise patience. Engaging in 4x5 film photography today can be seen as an expensive hobby if one accumulates gear and does not use it enough to justify having it which IMO is easy to do.

 

Adammork

Member
A nice technical camera, lens and digital back costs maybe 15 grand. A new LF film set-up could run from the low-end $400 (Intrepid without a lens) to quite expensive $7750 (Linhof et al, no lens), and used ones are much less than that. Has anyone done an analysis of the cost of an MF digital set-up, including a computer, calibrated monitor and output costs vs. LF outfit and film, processing and printing (not scanning and printing digitally)? My gut feeling is film ends up costing less, counting in that when shooting film fewer exposures are made vs digital.
The LF will be way cheaper for quit a lot of motives at least…

Together with a good colleague I have over the last year or so collected a a LF kit for architecture around a Linhof Tchnikardan S45, that was very close in being NOS, 6 Schneiders, 47xl, 72xl, 90, 110xl, 150 and 210 all mint and except the 110xl all Linhof selected and in Prontor shutters, new holders, reflex viewer and more - in short a complete kit in amazing condition!

The total price does not exceed the price if I needed to buy the Rodenstock 32mm for my Alpa as new again - We could also buy the kit for scanning, except the camera and lens, and we still have money left for film

But you need to have a bit of patience and maybe luck?

The value for money and all the smiles it produces can not be beaten in our opinion.

My colleague have used it for commercial assignments already - I will very soon.

It’s far from every assignment where it will make sense to use, but for the ones it does, it makes a lot of sens.

But that said, I would never choose LF over MFD because it can be cheaper, but only for the look of the result and the process of using it.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Turns out, my answer was yes - I just didn't know it until today, when I assembled a set of 4 Schneider lenses (47mm f/5.6 Super-Angulon XL, 90mm f/5.6 Super Angulon XL, 180mm f/5.6 APO-Symmar MC, 360mm f/6.8 APO-Symmar) to go with a Chamonix 45F-2, which should provide me with a nice kit to start fiddling with 4x5.

Now looking for (edit: B&W) films and developers to experiment with - any suggestions appreciated of course. After ages of medium format, film & digital, I am so looking forward to this new Small-Large-Format new adventure!

Best regards,

Vieri
 
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Geoff

Well-known member
I too long for the analog experience, and love film, but with too much going on, the hassles of film just don't work for me. That may change, but for now, I like using a digital back on an older view camera - such as a TK23. Get all the analog fun, and use of cheap LF lenses (with good quality in their centers), and using an older digital back is just fine. OK, maybe extreme stitching isn't without issues, but you can do an awful lot with such a setup.
 

Pieter 12

Well-known member
I still shoot film for two reasons (MF, not LF -- I don't have the patience for LF). I love the aspect of personal control that film gives me: I choose the film, the ISO, the developer, the printing adjustments. The final result is a print I have made in the darkroom. It feels more hand-made and personal. I don't scan anything except the prints to be able to sent them or post them online. The second reason is if I have started a project on film, I am reluctant to mix digital in with it. On the other hand, all my color work is digital. I do not have the facilities or knowledge to process or print color film and see no reason to have a third party do that for me.
 

anyone

Well-known member
Now looking for (edit: B&W) films and developers to experiment with - any suggestions appreciated of course. After ages of medium format, film & digital, I am so looking forward to this new Small-Large-Format new adventure!

Best regards,

Vieri
Nice one! The Chamonix is a fine camera, I have one too. My film/ developer choice: Delta100+ DD-X. Also nice is the Rollei RPX25 + DD-X, but the very thin base of the film make it tricky to handle.
 
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