6500 USD for a mere tilt upgrade. C'mon.

[Paul Spinnler]

Let's put the pricing policy for the "upgrade" into perspective:

The 6500 "upgrade" price
1) Arca R has "free" tilt on all lenses – it is worthwhile to note that this is a basic photographic feature, not a doubling of the sensor size or an increase of the IC by 30% by replacing an optical lens group
2) Alpa - just buy short barrel and a tilt spacer - costs like 1000-1500?
3) Cambo - tilt mounting is what, like 2000-2500 - but we are talking whole mount including swing on top
>> You essentially pay massively for a basic professional photographic feature that one can have almost for free (R, Alpa) or for considerably less (Cambo) on other systems
>> Reason: low sales numbers, three parties needing a cut, system design flaws and greedy PE ownership in the background of P1 breaking a sweat to make its returns in a high rates environment

32 HR on XT and alternatives
1) Great lens, but has enormous distortion and also vignetting; XT is helpful with automatic distortion correction - still, it is a lens that can make you go insane if you are shooting architecture, need straight lines in buildings and want to stitch a pano - goodnight then. Great for landscapes
2) You can, however, buy it on Alpa for example, ask for factory detents at 5mm increments on the shift rails and just create some presets to correct for distortion via X/Y inputs on C1
3) If you are seeking for the best for architecture, go SK (43 and 60 XL, 35 XL as well)
4) If you don't do architecture, just get an Alpa / Arca and tilt for a lower price
5) Tilt is nice on 32, but not crucial as stopping down can get you far already with this focal length
6) Tilt is most used in landscape photography, which is the area where you DON'T need an XT as the main benefit is the automatic shift data recording; meaning: in architecture you'd want auto shift data to automate distortion correction; vignetting is easy always via LCC. In landscape photography shift metadata is not useful

What 6500 tilt upgrade buys you in MFD
1) Fuji is 7500 USD - a full camera
2) X2D is 8200 USD - a full camera
3) Probably close to the price of the new 100 megapixel back

Tilt on the XT is sub-par
1) The XT implementation is flawed as it only does tilt - ie you cannot do swing; on Alpa you just rotate the tilt spacer or use two with certain lenses such as the 50HR so you have both tilt and swing in some cases concurrently
2) You can do "swing" by rotating the body, but the sensor is then also rotated - all other systems allow you to keep the sensor horizontally while also doing swing (with the R you just rotate the modular helical)
3) Tilt is only 3mm, Alpa and R do 5 degree

This is too much. I am sorry. The 32 HR is a good lens, but it is an almost 15 year old design and tilting a 32 HR is hardly a novelty. An XT 32 has been sitting on the bay for weeks at 7kish - tiny bit more than the tilt upgrade.

Devaluing massively initial customer's investments by asking a 6500 spread is just ridiculous.

Used prices of XT lenses are already hitting the 7-8k mark, with many lenses not selling fast for obvious reasons (economy, alternatives, lack of new backs)

Now a 32 XT w/o tilt is worth even less, given new buyers woud outright prefer to get the tiltable version.

Investing in P1 gear is essentially burning money - not sure this is sustainable or a good business tactic. If you buy M glass, value increases, lol.

Congrats P1, another way to run a formidable business into the ground and detract people from XT + disgruntling owners of P1 XT glass.

Sometimes you should not run every single step in a business on a high EBITDA-margin target - you need, in business, also consider scond order effects such as decreased system attractiveness, diminished user base, etc. and "give back" to keep people happy and confident in their system choice.

If over time the notion becomes clear that investing in P1 stuff is stupid and you just need to wait until people sell off gear used because there's a huge spread between "list" and "used" then you are on a downward trajectory.

2500-3000 USD would have been sensible, but clearly with dealers, Cambo and P1 needing their cut to replace a mount it has become this 6500 USD monstrosity of an upgrade fee which is just a slap in the phase of early birds and P1 users who invested early.

If anything, this shows how low sales must have gotten to arrive at 6500 USD price points for tilt upgrades. We are talking a few dozen lenses globally, or less.

Zero value retention with P1 gear. Great.

So who bought an XC? Anyone?

 

[nazdravanul]

I agree, the pricing is absurd, they are really shooting themselves in the foot! Especially in the current photography market!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

So you paid 13k for the lens and then another 6500 for the tilt, a cool 19500!

How much is the new Fuji? 4000?

In the future you get 8000-9000 usd for it on a forum if you sell.

You just burned a cool 10k.

On Arca R you just get the lens and tilt is for "free".

 

[stngoldberg]

I’ve been stating this for years, although not as eloquently
Stanley

On Arca R you just get the lens and tilt is for "free".
[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The funny thing is that saying that it is for "free" is only necessary because someone else started charging the price of a camera system for this upgrade, lol.

Also Alpa – you buy all lenses in a short barrel which saves space and get a tilt spacer which can be also added to the back for back tilt / swing which is unique. One-time expense.

I think the problem lies in the system design – I remember them saying at the beginning that the fixed mount w/o tilt is on purpose to ensure maximum precision – but as it turns out they just didn't invest enough time and effort to get the system right out of the gate as by now you can add tilt to three focal lengths.

The right thing to do IMHO is to offer earlybirds a special upgrade price of 3500 USD and from now on 6500 for new buyers.

With this pricing strategy they effectively penalize people who supported this system.

That creates customer resent as I now have two lenses 32 and 50 that I would like to be able to tilt and where I thought that it would be something that is "payable". But 13k to upgrade two lenses is too much.

6500 is the price of an entry-level Rolex. For tilt. On a 15 year-old lens design.

 

[Alkibiades]

I do have two the 32 HR , one on Cambo WRS mount and one in Copal for techno and arca swiss M-2,
on cambo WSR mont I get full movement of 25 mm ( rize) and I am not limited like Phase one XT user are.
the full movements are the reason for using such camera combo. I would not get the XT sytsem even if I would get it for free. It gives me simply no advantage but even cut the most important issue for using technical cameras at all.
It is simply radiculous. I could become cynical and make a funny comments on the way how the phase one managment act.
But in makes me really angry how such very usefull photographic company simply destroy themselfs.
The way that this managment choose is to become second Leica but not in technical superiority but only in the price question.
The update at the Cambo WRS system from simply wrs mount to tilt cost at the beginning about 300 euro, than 500 euo and more. I never needed it for my 32 HR. nice to have it but indeed you get it on several technical camers for free with all lenses.
I love it to work with Phase one and leaf backs- this is what they have done right ( but not to buy and then destroy leaf).
If Phase one would change the current managment and start to concentrate on the main business: making good backs for realistic prices, so I think thay could make a lot of photo-friends very happy again and thay could cancel the way that leads
straight out to suicade.
We need a new back with the back illuminated 100 MP sensor ( that is great for big movements even with extremy wide symmetrical lenses) for realistic price, not useless and overpriced live style products.
Fuji make it right, with the T/S lenses they go in the right direction. And their cameras become really better- a usefull AF, the stabilisation, that are elements that an user realistic needs and that make a system atractive and better to use.
Phase one could learn from a winner, they could bring the XF system on a technical level that compete with modern Fuji/sony ect... particularly the AF system. This would be usefull.
and new backs with cheaper sensor...
Hasselblad could do it also...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the absurd price is actually because 4 parties needing a cut:

1) Cambo for supplying new tilt mount
2) Rodenstock for re-checking sharpness
3) P1 wanting a nice cut because it is "their" system
4) Dealers needing a cut too

So the problem lies in both the system design – the SVP of the product had no idea what he was doing when the XT was released or the arrogance of thinking of knowing what people want based on his own wishes, omitting tilt then adding it, just releasing a 12mm shift cam, etc. – and the business model: everything is outsourced; Phase One just has the back tech and OS, but in the tech camera arena – a business run by more "family type of business" like Alpa, Arca, Linhof you need to integrate different companies.

Rodenstock is also owned by private equity, so given sales are also low for the now of age HR line of lenses, they also increased the price to keep it profitable.

So if Rodenstock asks for an arm and a leg for the simplest MTF checks, etc. if P1's photo unit needs to report at least 50-100% gross margin per product (before operational expenses), if Cambo also wants to make money and if the dealers also want 10-15% well then you have this 6500 joke of a price.

The current price is maybe a result of this:

1. Cambo tilt mount 2.5k (they don't care, it is not their system, but they make the SAME money as with their native system, I would assume because they have all the power in their hands vis-a-vis P1 who has no own manufacturing capabilities
2. Rodie check price 1.2k (was a few hundred bucks at one time, after the new price increase it has become bonkers for them to do ANYTHING)
3. Phase wanting 2k margin on top for not doing anything beyond coordination and being the brand owner of the XT brand
4. Dealers take 1000 for admin and why not

Essentially because P1 has 0 own capabilities in the tech cam arena it becomes this uncompetitive offering.

That they don't offer a special price for early birds is beyond me. They should have hashed out the following:

1.75k for Cambo for earlibirds, Rodie check 500, Phase taking 1000, dealers 500 – should be around 3.5-4k.

If everyone wants to become rich here, of course it is not going to fly – they are not vertically integrated and it is a dying, niche business.

The best solution would have been to talk to all suppliers, make a timed upgrade deal available for current owners (e.g. end of the year) and offer a palatable price of 3.5-4k USD per lens.

After 31 Dec 6500, but then no one who buys the new lenses would buy it without tilt so the 6500 upgrades would be low.

 

[Alkibiades]

Rodenstock dont take additional money for checking something in this case,
they build the lenses in a shutter, thats all. When you buy such lens you pay already for the mounting and calibration.
The right calibration is a part of the deal and is a part of guarantee.
Rodenstock take additional money only when a lens should be rebuild in a fully different kind of shutter, when you want to change for example from some sinar mounts to copal or modern rodenstock aperture mount.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Rodenstock dont take additional money for checking something in this case,
they build the lenses in a shutter, thats all. When you buy such lens you pay already for the mounting and calibration.
The right calibration is a part of the deal and is a part of guarantee.
Rodenstock take additional money only when a lens should be rebuild in a fully different kind of shutter, when you want to change for example from some sinar mounts to copal or modern rodenstock aperture mount.

Ah, that makes sense, so essentially three parties:

1) Cambo 2500
2) Phase 3250
3) Dealer 750

2) does 0 effective work in this process as 3) manages the admin with the customer, shipping around, etc and 1) swaps mounts. 2) Only has to pay back development fees for the tilt mount, but that's still too much and some operational expenses of managers back in Denmark and abroad being salaried by the photo division.

Problem is if sales are very low, say 100 units, then you have these absurd prices.

Arca and Alpa and Linhof are family busineses with just a few normally paid employees and an owner that hardly makes bank from this business. P1 probably has a totally different salary level at the management level – ie "corporate" salaries + they need to turn profitable after making losses.

Phase post pandemic has become thislarger b2b focused orporate creating expensive systems for inspection purposes that happens to have started in photography – with the photography side slowly dying; in addition, b22 is sstill struggling given high R&D, capital requirements, and tough competition from the likes of DJI in some segments, so it is clear we won't see low prices anymore.

Fuji and DJI as more integrated photo system manufacturers are at a big advantage here.

Fuji developed the T/S lens in house and covers all aspects from lenses to HW to software. Difficult to beat by a marketing front buying all tech from third parties to be present in the tech cam segment (Rodie, Cambo, etc. all want a cut, Fuji can just produce for themselves).

 

[drevil]

 

[robmac]

No horse in this race, but ouch, how to make the following look like bargains:

1. Fuji GFX 100_ + T/S lenses (and access to H lenses with leaf shutters).
2. Hassy X1D2-X2D + HTS 1.5 (~$1800 used) + H lenses of choice + 0.8XH adapter to negate some of the 1.5x effect of the HTS.

Not to mention a much larger resale market for either.

 

[nazdravanul]

No horse in this race, but ouch, how to make the following look like bargains:

1. Fuji GFX 100_ + T/S lenses (and access to H lenses with leaf shutters).
2. Hassy X1D2-X2D + HTS 1.5 (~$1800 used) + H lenses of choice + 0.8XH adapter to negate some of the 1.5x effect of the HTS.

Not to mention a much larger resale market for either.

I think for the price of a 150 MP IQ back + XT + 32 Rodie + tilt retrofit … you can get both Fuji + Hassy systems, you don’t even have to bother choosing

 

[dchew]

For me, the biggest limitation with the XT tilt design is horizontal only. Going through my catalog, the majority of my images that used tilt are composed vertically. Swing is rare for me, but in every case that was horizontal.

It's backwards.

Dave

 

[MGrayson]

What is really going on here?

Company makes product you don't want - no problem.
Company makes product you might want, if it was a fraction of the price - sad, but ubiquitous. I hear Lamborghini makes a great SUV.
Company makes a product that has better and cheaper alternatives - no problem. Get them.

So it seems we're down to
Company is wasting resources on their own business model instead of making the thing I want for the amount I want to pay. Also sad, but so ubiquitous that it hardly requires comment.

And why is "I want this" always phrased as "they must do this"? It's ok to own your preferences, and not necessary to ascribe them to everyone else.

And why am I commenting at all?

Mysteries abound!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

It's not that easy Matt.

As a photography-interested person you might just also want to buy into a system that has a future and is not run into the ground by management.

Its the demeanor as of late. Like 0 communication, absurd pricing policies, no roadmap and clarity on what's to come.

In the past there was also a bit the notion with P1 that it is a "good investment" with high-value retention due to technological superiority and generous trade-in policies.

P1 secured your investment in their expensive systems by pricing new generations of their backs at 45k-50k with trade-ins at half price for prior-gen backs. That way, once you were in the "P1 club" you would have a pretty valuable digital back whose value would stay high during each cycle.

That confidence in the brand and the value retention of its systems is now fading.

Your car analogy doesn't fit: there are cars which retain a lot more value than others over time - like a BMW, for example. A Lambo depreciates as fast as an Italian ice cream on the beach. People know in advance what they will get. One doesnt buy a Lambo hoping it will keep its value. Its pure luxury and fun!

P1 is moving more into the quick to depreciate direction - that's bothersome to people who didn't initially intend it as a pure luxury expenditure.

Leica M has is luxury as well, but with a lot higher value retention. So it depends on the brand and each has its promise.

P1's brand promise is shifting. You buy into a system with a certain expectation of what's to come and at what price, and if that's not coming it's of course not so nice for the customers.

Missing updates
- Where's auto LCC
- Where's the next-gen back
- Where's the big shift XT
- Where's the XC standalone
- Where's the tilt retrofit at a normal price

Questions arising
- Why is the value of my gear depreciating so fast - didn't I pay 40k and now I am being offered 15k bymy dealer?
- Does it make sense to stay with P1?

 

[anwarp]

Paul - I agree with you regarding value retention.

As a hobbyist, I buy everything used. The only exceptions have been the IQ4 150 (traded up from a used IQ3 100) and the cambo actus. Now that P1 have reduced their trade-in warranty from 5years to 1year, I think this will be my last P1 back.

On the bright side, used P1 equipment is getting cheaper!

Anwar

 

[Paul Spinnler]

If they bring a good IQ5 that's aspirational the world is good again if I can trade in my IQ4 150 for 25k.

Hope 2025 is the year. 17 stops DR, 200 megapixels, better I/O, more in-camera magic.

 

[MGrayson]

Investment is not a word that belongs in photography equipment discussions - my personal opinion, of course. They’re consumables.

I paid $20K from a dealer for a used IQ140 (40mp CCD). The later upgrade deal applied to P65 and earlier, so I was stuck there. Sold it later for $5K. I’m not interested in the Phase One upgrade treadmill.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Investment is not a word that belongs in photography equipment discussions - my personal opinion, of course. They’re consumables.

Besides hobbyists and enthusiasts working professionals still exist - and people fulfilling their dreams of buying a P1 system also do not like to immediately lose money, I would assume.

Still amazed I made a profit by selling my Noctilux I got in 2010 in 2019.

 

[MGrayson]

Besides hobbyists and enthusiasts working professionals still exist - and people fulfilling their dreams of buying a P1 system also do not like to immediately lose money, I would assume.

Still amazed I made a profit by selling my Noctilux I got in 2010 in 2019.

There are rare appreciating cameras and lenses, and some hold their value better than others. Digital cameras and backs fare poorly.