Leica 007 - A Warning To Potential Buyers

[algrove]

I now believe that Pentax 25mm lens discussions should be entered under the Pentax area as it seems to have hijacked this thread.

 

[D&A]

I now believe that Pentax 25mm lens discussions should be entered under the Pentax area as it seems to have hijacked this thread.

Thanks Louis, very much agree! That was my fault for bringing up the Pentax 25mm as a representative example of a retrofocus wide angle lens and it's angle of incidence of light on the periphery of a sensor as the discussion here was headed in that direction. Discussion should be kept on topic.

Dave (D&A)

 

[justalexander]

Re: Leica 007 - A Warning To Potential Buyers - ANOTHER PROBLEM

ANOTHER PROBLEM
I've recently discovered another problem which I'm at a loss to explain. I'm getting colour artefacts which I had just assumed were random and I just retouched them on an case by case basis. However when I placed a few of the images in layers they seemed to be occurring in the same areas (marked with guides in the attached images).

Does anyone have any idea what this could be?


BREAKDOWN OF NEGOTIATIONS
In further news, my negotiations with Leica Australia have broken down. Despite this new problem they refuse to accept there are any inherent problems with my S system and have failed to offer me any compensation for the problems I've experienced. They simply offer to repair or replace faulty items... items which continue to fail repeatedly while new problems present themselves. I'm now in the process of commencing legal proceedings against Leica.

If there are any S system owners who have experienced problems which they believe constitute inherent defects with the system I would greatly appreciate it if you could contact me privately to discuss the matter. I will also oblige by providing any necessary information in support of other users claims against Leica.

I'm personally disgusted that despite all the problems I've had, backed up with considerable evidence, they fail to take responsibility for their products.

Many thanks
Justin

 

[jdphoto]

There's probably enough Leica S camera issues to go at them with a class action if nothing is done to address these individual owners needs. The resale on these is insulting at best. I had my share of issues with Hasselblad MFD, but nothing like Leica S owners. I'm grateful I didn't invest in this camera, but now you can buy them for a 1/4 of the MSRP!

 

[Speedgraphic]

Leica have repeatedly shown that they make shoddy cameras with fatal flaws. They do seem to be getting it together with the newer Ms. The 240 was nice, and the M10 seems excellent. The Q looks like a hit. Pretty much everything else they do is terrible. My advice to you is proceed with whatever legal means you have, get every cent you can, and buy a GFX. If Fujifilm lenses aren't good enough for you then nothing is.

 

[Iktinos]

Leica have repeatedly shown that they make shoddy cameras with fatal flaws. They do seem to be getting it together with the newer Ms. The 240 was nice, and the M10 seems excellent. The Q looks like a hit. Pretty much everything else they do is terrible. My advice to you is proceed with whatever legal means you have, get every cent you can, and buy a GFX. If Fujifilm lenses aren't good enough for you then nothing is.

"If Fujifilm lenses aren't good enough for you then nothing is"... one of the fairest comments ever!

 

[Paratom]

I understand the frustration of those who are let down by Leica, I also understand if they dont get help that they go to law.

What I dont understand how People make conclusions that products are flawed in general.

I also dont understand how people know that products are better, even though such products are not even available yet in most stores, and where we have no real experience.

And I dont understand how people know what is good (enough) for others.

Many People still using a M8 today (I have used one for many years), and after putting filters on it this was a camera where nothing comparable (in regards of handling and size of lenses) was available, and which produces very good Images. So why would that be a flawed camera?

Just because some People have defective Units and some People are not treated how they should be trated doesnt automatically mean a product is "flawed".

I use a EM1, a Nikon df, and several Leicas (T,M,SL and S). The EM1 Flash gave up during my dive vacation and I could not sync my underwater flashes. I received really bad telephone Support which didnt help in anyway.
My Nikon df had a shutter Problem during another trip (shutter sometimes did close and not open again). My Nikon AW1 had some water inside at the first time I put it in 2 m depth (rated for 15m). It didnt dy but I sent it in and Nikons answer was "everything fine with the camera". I now use it without trust that it will survive.

I could go on, but IMO if you use photographic products they can fail, my experience with Leica is that they are not better or worse than other brands in this regard.
It Looks Service and communication is the bigger Problem in some parts of the world, even though at my local store in Germany I have not experienced such Problem.
I am more frustrated by Long delivery times for new products, but Hassy seems not different in this regard.

I hope the guys with Problems will achieve a satisfying compensation from Leica.

 

[justalexander]

M8 IR FLAW
You make some relevant points especially about having to use equipment in the hope that it will survive, however I must respectfully disagree with you about the M8. It's a camera that made it into production with a serious flaw. None of the engineers or developers (with all of their masters degrees and PHD's) picked up the fact problem. If it wasn't a flaw, why did they offer a bandaid solution in the form of 2 free IR filters. And what about owners that had more than 2 lenses? They had to pay for the IR filters out of their own pockets.


LEICA v OTHER BRANDS
I currently own Hasselblad, Canon and Sony cameras and while they've had their share of problems, the Leica has had more problems than all of them combined!

I reported the first problem to Leica less than 2 weeks after purchase. Since then my Leica has been back to Germany 3 times. I've had one battery charger replaced because it was faulty. I have 1 faulty battery sitting on my desk and in the last couple of days either a second battery or the charger has started to malfunction (i'm still testing to find out which it is). The distance markings on the LCD are inaccurate as are the lens barrel markings and the AF is faulty in more ways than one. I was told by Leica that the distance readout on the LCD isn't intended to be relied upon and to use live view focus. WHY HAVE THE FEATURE ON THE CAMERA IF ITS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED? Most recently, my 24mm focussed past infinity when when pointed at a building in full sunlight with no other objects nearby. I am left to use live view for focus while tethered to a laptop which is ridiculous for a camera claiming to have such high reliability. And I quote... "Reliability redefined" I live in Sydney but was in Amsterdam last year for work. I updated my camera with a firmware update while there... which caused the live view function not to operate as normal. An update to the firmware was not released for another few weeks and despite contacting Leica engineers directly there was no way to downgrade my firmware leaving me with an even more crippled camera while on the other side of the planet.

And that by the way is not the full list of problems...

I can't speak for anyone else as I haven't seen any evidence to back up their claims, however I have provided more than enough evidence to Leica and to members of this site.


CORPORATE GREED
I work VERY hard for my money. Today was a 15 hr day which isn't unusual for me (and this includes weekends). If a company is happy enough to take my money, they should be wiling to refund it if the goods are faulty and breach consumer laws. Leica have taken my money and now they continue to take my time and energy.


FALSE AND MISLEADING CONDUCT
Leica advertise UV filters on their website. Here's a link but I've also attached a screenshot just in case they remove them...
https://au.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/Technical-Equipment/UVa-II-Filter

I purchased 4 of these filters however 2 remain undelivered (2 x 95mm which cost $640 EACH) because Leica advised me they are unable to product them! They've offered me a refund however they're STILL advertised on their website 6 months later despite me advising them this constitutes false and misleading conduct under Australian corporation and consumer Law.

The situation has become a JOKE!!! Undelivered goods, faulty products, flagrant breaches of corporation and consumer law and they treat me like I'm just being a nuisance. Equipment can, and does fail however after a certain number of failures a consumer has the moral and legal right to demand a refund. I believe that point has long well passed in my case.

Regards
Justin

I understand the frustration of those who are let down by Leica, I also understand if they dont get help that they go to law.

What I dont understand how People make conclusions that products are flawed in General.
I also dont understand how People know that products, which are not even available yet in most stores, and where we have no real experience are better.
And what I understand the least is how People know what is good for others.

Many People still using a M8 today (I have used one for many years), and after putting filters on it this was a camera where nothing comparable (in regards of handling and size of lenses) was available, and which produces very good Images. So why would that be a flawed camera?

Just because some People have defective Units and some People are not treated how they should be trated doesnt automatically mean a product is "flawed".

I use a EM1, a Nikon df, and several Leicas (T,M,SL and S). The EM1 Flash gave up during my dive vacation and I could not sync my underwater flashes. My Nikon df had a shutter Problem during another trip (shutter sometimes did Close and not open again). My Nikon AW1 had some water inside at the first time I put it in 2 m depth (rated for 15m). It didnt dy but I sent it in and Nikons answer was "everything fine with the camera". I now use it without trust that it will survive.

I could go on, but IMO if you use photographic products they can fail, my experience with Leica is that they are not better or worse than other brands in this regard.
It Looks Service and communication is the bigger Problem in some parts of the world, even though at my local store in Germany I have not experienced such Problem.
I am more frustrated by Long delivery times for new products, but Hassy seems not different in this regard.

I hope the guys with Problems will achieve a satisfying compensation from Leica.

 

[MGrayson]

And I use Leica, Sony, and Canon, and the Sony has had more problems than the other two combined. Oddly enough, I do not hang out in Sony forums trashing their brand.

--Matt

 

[hcubell]

And I use Leica, Sony, and Canon, and the Sony has had more problems than the other two combined. Oddly enough, I do not hang out in Sony forums trashing their brand.

--Matt

Well, if you did, at least you would own Sony cameras. That would make sense. It's people who don't even own the brand and hang out in forums breathlessly carping about the problems with the stuff that I find so odd.

 

[Paratom]

M8 IR FLAW
You make some relevant points especially about having to use equipment in the hope that it will survive, however I must respectfully disagree with you about the M8. It's a camera that made it into production with a serious flaw. None of the engineers or developers (with all of their masters degrees and PHD's) picked up the fact problem. If it wasn't a flaw, why did they offer a bandaid solution in the form of 2 free IR filters. And what about owners that had more than 2 lenses? They had to pay for the IR filters out of their own pockets.


LEICA v OTHER BRANDS
I currently own Hasselblad, Canon and Sony cameras and while they've had their share of problems, the Leica has had more problems than all of them combined!

I reported the first problem to Leica less than 2 weeks after purchase. Since then my Leica has been back to Germany 3 times. I've had one battery charger replaced because it was faulty. I have 1 faulty battery sitting on my desk and in the last couple of days either a second battery or the charger has started to malfunction (i'm still testing to find out which it is). The distance markings on the LCD are inaccurate as are the lens barrel markings and the AF is faulty in more ways than one. I was told by Leica that the distance readout on the LCD isn't intended to be relied upon and to use live view focus. WHY HAVE THE FEATURE ON THE CAMERA IF ITS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED? Most recently, my 24mm focussed past infinity when when pointed at a building in full sunlight with no other objects nearby. I am left to use live view for focus while tethered to a laptop which is ridiculous for a camera claiming to have such high reliability. And I quote... "Reliability redefined" I live in Sydney but was in Amsterdam last year for work. I updated my camera with a firmware update while there... which caused the live view function not to operate as normal. An update to the firmware was not released for another few weeks and despite contacting Leica engineers directly there was no way to downgrade my firmware leaving me with an even more crippled camera while on the other side of the planet.

And that by the way is not the full list of problems...

I can't speak for anyone else as I haven't seen any evidence to back up their claims, however I have provided more than enough evidence to Leica and to members of this site.


CORPORATE GREED
I work VERY hard for my money. Today was a 15 hr day which isn't unusual for me (and this includes weekends). If a company is happy enough to take my money, they should be wiling to refund it if the goods are faulty and breach consumer laws. Leica have taken my money and now they continue to take my time and energy.


FALSE AND MISLEADING CONDUCT
Leica advertise UV filters on their website. Here's a link but I've also attached a screenshot just in case they remove them...
https://au.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/Technical-Equipment/UVa-II-Filter

I purchased 4 of these filters however 2 remain undelivered (2 x 95mm which cost $640 EACH) because Leica advised me they are unable to product them! They've offered me a refund however they're STILL advertised on their website 6 months later despite me advising them this constitutes false and misleading conduct under Australian corporation and consumer Law.

The situation has become a JOKE!!! Undelivered goods, faulty products, flagrant breaches of corporation and consumer law and they treat me like I'm just being a nuisance. Equipment can, and does fail however after a certain number of failures a consumer has the moral and legal right to demand a refund. I believe that point has long well passed in my case.

Regards
Justin

Hi Justin,
with the M8 thats what I did: I bought enough filters for all my lenses. The Money spent was much less than the Discount they gave on a lens as appolegy.
And then I just enjoyed the camera for a couple of years.

As Long as there are Solutions I can live with it. Much better than the Sony user Interface/menue-structure. It does work but really ist not great at all and will probably never Change.

In regards of the filters ... whats the big deal, a product is not on stock. so what. buy a B&W, they cost half and are just as good. (Thats what I believe and did at least, even though the Leica UV filter was available in store I was not willing to pay the double Price)

 

[jdphoto]

And I use Leica, Sony, and Canon, and the Sony has had more problems than the other two combined. Oddly enough, I do not hang out in Sony forums trashing their brand.

--Matt

So I guess anyone who has a complaint or in your view, a contentious, unwarranted grievance against Leica or any other camera manufacture when their flagship camera turns out to be a piece of crap, is biased for airing this in a forum? This is a slippery slope against opposing opinions that are essential to the very nature of a forum. People buy high end products because they want the best. That includes tech support, reliable gear and courteous service. It's also a courtesy to other forum members who may be experiencing similar issues or a watchdog for others who may be considering purchases. Forums are wonderful outlets when ego's get out of the way.

 

[Paratom]

So I guess anyone who has a complaint or in your view, a contentious, unwarranted grievance against Leica or any other camera manufacture when their flagship camera turns out to be a piece of crap, is biased for airing this in a forum? This is a slippery slope against opposing opinions that are essential to the very nature of a forum. People buy high end products because they want the best. That includes tech support, reliable gear and courteous service. It's also a courtesy to other forum members who may be experiencing similar issues or a watchdog for others who may be considering purchases. Forums are wonderful outlets when ego's get out of the way.

I think a forum is the right place to bring up complains and discuss problems and share such information.

But why making the generalization/conclusion that a product is flawed in general ?

 

[DB5]

I think a forum is the right place to bring up complains and discuss problems and share such information.

But why making the generalization/conclusion that a product is flawed in general ?

Because it is? Clearly, it is, with no solution and people are fed up.

 

[jdphoto]

I think a forum is the right place to bring up complains and discuss problems and share such information.

But why making the generalization/conclusion that a product is flawed in general ?

Considering the OP's track record with Leica, I'd say his comments are anything but general.

 

[Paratom]

Because it is? Clearly, it is, with no solution and people are fed up.

Ok, I see.

 

[Paratom]

Considering the OP's track record with Leica, I'd say his comments are anything but general.

I was not refering to the original start of this thread, which I agree with you was very specific and clear experience.

Anyways, I should stay out of here because there is a risk that I am misunderstood. To make it clear: I fully understand that those people who have bad experience and who are not served well by Leica are mad and I think they should make pressure to Leica, and if they move on to other brands I can understand as well.

I have different experience with both the S and the service. Maybe also a question of location.
I also still have trust that AF motor problems (for those people who have the problem) can be fixed permanent in the future. Now I will stop to hijack this thread with positive experience and expectations.

 

[MGrayson]

Clearly a terrible camera. After an hour in the snow today it completely failed to stop working.






The OP has made his point, gotten sympathy, advice, and no disbelief. But that isn't enough. This piling on is silly. If we're going to declare a product to be garbage by a few anecdotes, then positive experiences are just as important.

--Matt

 

[stephengilbert]

I know nothing about the likelihood of a Leica failing, but I think that people saying, "I have one, and it's always worked fine" isn't very helpful

The issue is how likely is a camera to fail. What if the likelihood is only five or ten percent? I'd think that to many people that would be unacceptable.

 

[Speedgraphic]

Clearly a terrible camera. After an hour in the snow today it completely failed to stop working.






The OP has made his point, gotten sympathy, advice, and no disbelief. But that isn't enough. This piling on is silly. If we're going to declare a product to be garbage by a few anecdotes, then positive experiences are just as important.

--Matt

The fact that your camera works in the snow is literally the bare minimum requirement. My prosumer D750 does this too. As do most consumer level APS-C Pentax cameras. What you have is an obnoxiously expensive crop MFD camera that every cheaper MFD camera surpases in nearly every way, especially now that the GFX is coming. The fact that yours is currently in ship-shape does nothing for all the broken AF motors, months and months of repair delays, and multiple listed problems that the OP is experiencing. Leica is promising that their system is something special, that a professional can rely upon, but they're failing to deliver on that promise. Simple as that.