Magic Four Series: The versatile SK 60 XL – laudatio on one of the best MFD lenses ever made

[Paul Spinnler]

Hi guys

I figured it's nice to heap some praise on some legendary vintage lenses and discuss them a bit more in detail – because why not? It is getdpi.com, after all.

I've been reviewing some of my 60 XL files and must say that this lens stands above the rest in so many ways. Just astonishing.

So – it is a late-gen SK lens, ie part of the last "Magic Four" (let us pls. call them like that, they are great) created by Schneider before they closed shop and timeline-wise just at the same time as the release of the Rodenstock HR lens series.

The Magic Four are: 28 XL, 43 XL, 60 XL and 120 ASPH. IMHO if you'd want to slot in equivalent magic Rodie lenses it would be the 32, 90, 138.

The 60 XL is the most versatile in the set in that respect it is very dear to my heart. It is a lens you can build a system around, or, for lack of an alternative, live with when just starting out.

The 60 XL is a double gaussian design with extreme sharpness and linearity:

1. Has a 120mm IC, which is unparalleled below 90mm and that lets you shoot 6x9 and digital with endless shift
2. On my Pano I can shift to almost 30mm and still get crips detail, see shots below
3. The microcontrast is best in class; it is the sharpest SK lens I own and up there with the Rodie HR crispness
4. It has slight vignetting and requires LCC with an IQ4 as soon as you do extreme shififts, but on a small scale it is very well manageable
5. It is fully rectilinear, meaning it is the ulimate one-trick architecture lens – combine it with an Rm3DI or Alpa Max (arch cams of choice) and you have all you need to create 300 megapixel monstres of pictures
6. On an achromatic back it is a dream
7. There's a CF, but it works very well without with the IQ4 gen of sensors

Here a snip on the edge 30mm shifted on my Pano:



Centre:



ARE YOU KIDDING ME.

EVERY LITTLE BRANCH OF A TREE ON A HILL MILES AWAY ACROS 30MM SHIFT LEFT AND RIGHT. CAN YOU SAY 320 MEGAPIXEL STITCHES.

This lens weighs almost nothing, has endless, truly endless shifts, and is fully rectilinear.

The 60mm focal length is totally flexible. Portraits, architecture, and landscapes with stitching.

Highly recommend! There's nothing comparable in MFD land, IMHO. Even with an IQ5 with 250 megapixels this lens will deliver resolution. And then shift like that.

I am surprised that SK closed shop with the quality they pumped out in their last series.

Comparing it with Rodie glass it also acts differnetly; up until F11 it is less sharp, I feel, with a wonderful analogue "underlying sharpness"; ie all details are there, but a tiny bit softer. Rodie glass in comparison is like the shot above at F4-5.6 already. BUT this is not a disadvantage; in that sense the 60 XL has a beatiful look and it is also more contrasty I feel compared to the Rodie lenses.

I think if there's anything like an "investment concept in MFD" then the SK Magic Four come as close to that as possible. Rodie HR lenses are also great, but given they've been in production for so much longer - more than a decade longer and still available – it essentially means that you'll most likely always have the best Rodie glass at a slight discount to new – because they are still great and rare –, while the Magic Four will keep or increase value IMHO.

There's just not so many to go around and even if the pros move onto Fuji there's just still such a high utility value in them that it is difficult to imagine pricing moving. It is a bit like luxury real estate in a down market - demand outsripps supply so dramatically, you'll always have one guy wanting the 120mm IC super sharp, compact lens ...

Hassy will release a new back and for all we know IQ5 is just a question of a new sensor given the main business is alive and kicking.

Bright future therefore for this little gem of a lens, a true desert island essential.

The MFD lens equivalent of a diamond. The rarity is commensurate with this definition: while there are thousands of Rodie lenses of each focal length in the market, there are low hundreds across all manufacturers of these available globally.

I am not familiar with the 60 XL sales numbers, but the 28 XL Helvetar has been limited to 50 units in Alpa mount, globally. 50 on a planet of what 8 billion?

The 60XL may have been produced a few hundred times, but the lesson is this - don’t let these ever slip through your fingers.

– Laudatio END

 

[ThdeDude]

Maybe Silvestri could be motivated to supplement its Apo Silvetar 5.6/35mm with a 60mm and 120mm knockoff of the Schneider 60 XL and 120 ASPH, respectively.

Rodenstock never offered a 135mm Digaron-S, and the 35mm and 100mm Digaron-S are now no longer available from Rodenstock.

 

[akaru]

And yet I had trouble selling mine (in Cambo T/S no less). Rough economy I guess. (Lots of lowballers saying it was priced too high, noting four year old sales.) This lens was, what, $5,500 when launched? And the modern alternative is $13,000 and rising? I personally prefer the 60XL to the 90HR-SW. As you said, if you find it, buy it.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Any other 60 XL fans here?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

And yet I had trouble selling mine (in Cambo T/S no less). Rough economy I guess. (Lots of lowballers saying it was priced too high, noting four year old sales.) This lens was, what, $5,500 when launched? And the modern alternative is $13,000 and rising? I personally prefer the 60XL to the 90HR-SW. As you said, if you find it, buy it.

Yes rough economy. It will improve next year, inflation is plateauing and expectation with the FED is of lower interest rates next year to stabilize the economy. Definitely HODL and if anyone doesn’t buy a 60 XL, 43 XL that’s offered their problem TBH.

Precedent prices are not really relevant as with these lenses what matters is getting them in the first place and worst case one just ebays the rare SK stuff off, there's always someone globally who will drop the 10k for an Alpa Helvetar 60 or 43 XL. Just needs time. The two Helvetars on Alpa posted here some days ago in the end were sold for 10k ish even without the real CFs (not to you, but they were sold I reckon from the ad) ... so there are collectors / photographers snapping them up.

If anything, now is the time to counter-cyclically buy them if one has the means.

It is always the same with photo gear. Transaction intensity and prices of the rare vintage stuff is super dependent on the market environment and current sentiment. Kodak is also selling less atm I understand from what I can read online.

I mean take fine art XXL lenses. There's maybe 25 of one focal length globally. Prices pre- and during pandemic went up to insane levels as money was abundant and photo gear skyrocketeted. Or Mamiya 7, mint Pentax 6x7s, etc.

The point is that these lenses are still rare and in a way irreplaceable, so as time passes and when the economic outlook improves these will be even more expensive.

We've had some insane ads recently, it has been quite a while since I saw near-minty 43 / 60 XLs in Alpa mount. In fact, that's one of these "once in every few years moments".

60 XL and 90 HR SW – both are great and sharp, but reality is the 90mm is a short tele and although I am always amazed at its sharpness, it IS NOT an everyday focal length. The 60 XL though – you can just buy this lens and one tech cam and be happy for a broad range of use cases.

 

[dchew]

Any other 60 XL fans here?

Yes, I too love mine. I occationally get temped by the Rodi 50hr because it is slightly wider. But then I use the 60xl and shake my head.

I never had the 120a, but several friends do and they love theirs except for a flare issue they had to solve. I also like the sk100, which is relatively new to me. I found one unused sitting on a shelf at a dealer earlier this year. The copy I have is better than my sk90.

I do wish Schneider would get back in, but I realize that's probably not a business decision that makes sense. I think the Fuji 30mm TS is making a lot of folks rethink their technical camera workflow.

Dave

 

[akaru]

And apologies for shifting so quickly to economics, which is no fun. Was just top of mind as someone who has somewhat regrettably sold some of these lenses recently. Currently there’s an ad for Alpa (not Helvetar but Alpa mount) for around $7k. I think it’s slightly high in a “could I resell this quickly” sort of way, but in another way it’s a bargain.

Did you coin this term the magic four? It makes sense.

60 is a good focal length on mf to me. I’ve owned two 90’s, and never gelled with them even though they were the sharpest lenses I owned.

Then it’s super small, not far off from a summilux. So it’s cheaper, smaller, a collectible, and has a special rendering. Rodie wins on fully open, so I use the 23 often at night. And of course color cast on previous sensors. But forward-looking, with BSI sensors the de facto, the Schneider’s are my favorite if I’m going to stop down anyway. That, and they have a classy clean look to boot.

 

[Geoff]

Also have the 60xl. Favorite lens, take 90% of my shots w it. Then again the 60 mm Curtagon Schneider was fantastic in Rolleiland too.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the 7k digitars in Alpa mount are sold because the Helvetars were bought for 10k! I think it is a concatenated refinancing transaction. But not sure!

Yes they are bargains. You barely get a new Rodie HR for that price these days and as soon as the economy recovers prices will tighten I would assume. There aren’t many around and all those who have them keep them 95% of the time.

Yes I came up with the Magic Four term. I think it is fitting as they were SKs competitive answer to Rodenstock’s strong lineup of the next-gen Rodie HR lenses announced around 2009-2010 if memory serves right.

So Rodie announced the 32, 40, 50 and the 90 HR SW (while 70 and the Digaron-S lenses 23 and 180 were kept in the lineup). They also felt the need to only bring out a certain range of lenses to fill in the gaps for modern backs and as you can see from the lineup they essentially realized that the ultra-wide and wide-angle dept. needed a complete facelift for the 80 megapixel backs at the time. They only had the Sironar Digital lenses 35, 45, 55 which had larger ICs, but weren't as good shifted out on the large chip as expected and that's why they drew up a next gen set on the wide side. SK had to respond to not lose market share. The new wide retrofocus-based Rodies were good on the LCC side and blisterlingly sharp wide open already which is great for the ever smaller digital sensors.

In that context the 28, 43, 60, 120 Asph came out as SK's "next-gen" riposte to Rodenstock. Out of these the 28 XL had a very limited production run because it coincided with the 80 megapixel CCD backs which made them unuseable (customers started complaining and so they stopped sale of 28 XLs) and the 120 Asph came out just before the lay closed shop. I think when the design for the 28 XL started we were still in the 40 megapixel era where these lenses work out great and it took the backside illuminated IQ4 chip to basically revive them. That's why the 28 XL is still very sought after – IQ4 healed to an extent the reason it was discontinued.

This is the best SK had developed for digital encapsulating decades of lens production know-how; the best of the best after generation of classic large format lenses and eternal rivalry with Rodenstock and ultimately their market response to the newest HR lenses Rodenstock brought out. Their sharpness to this day is top of the line with ICs that exceed Rodie's offerings. You have to deal with more LCC because of the design, but in return you get symmetry and IC. On achromatic backs the discoloration isn't even a problem.

Warren also showed how to master the 43XLs tiling issue on extreme shifts and if you take the altnerativee Rodie CFs the effects can be mitigated slightly in any case.

So in terms of rarity you will have 43, 60, 28 and 120 Asph from least to most rare. The fact that you more rarely see 43s goes to show how fantastic this one is. You can do a quad rectilinear stitch with 20mm shift with this one … and no distortion correction in post.

The 28 and 120 are just very rare. The 100 Asph was announced and never sold. There's literally no downside to the 120 ASPH. It is endlessly sharp and the IC doesn't end. No LCC.

The holy grail of MFD tech cam lenses would there fore be the Magic Four plus some of the best of Rodie land whereby there are some substitutes; the 138 can cover the 120 and is optically better, but costs as much as a car; the 90 is excellent if you need the length and on the ultra wide side the 28 doesn’t really replace the 32 because the 28 is the bomb when you use it, but it requires a lot more effort with all the LCCing and careful shooting while the 32 just works flawlessly and is razor sharp.

Kind of leaves the 70 HR in a weird spot. Great lens, but no match for the 60 XL and too close for the 90 HR. I gather from Greiner it is not really a best seller. 180 is obsolete with the 138 and the 23 is just this specialist lens you need to like. The 210 T is the only one worthwhile getting after the 138 IMHO.

 

[guphotography]

My go to lens, also the favourite, to the point that I'd prefer to stitch two vertical frames rather than swap 43 for the same field of view.

It is roughly the same focal length of 90mm in 6x7, most natural to our way of seeing, also a challenging focal length for interior work, in a good way it forces you to craft composition, and when you nail it, the rewards can be immense.

I use it for 90% of my work, now slimming down to 43, 60 and 120, never llked a non sk lens in the bag (rodie magenta 90mm), I'll vertically stitch with 120 if I need the 90mm look.

Luckily 28xl was way too wide for my liking, even the 35xl hasn't been touched since 43 arrived, I'll settle for the magic three

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think Magic Three is far more common as the 28 really is a specialist lens. It is fantastic for interiors like say an opera house or libraries, or dramatic architecture; but it IS NOT an easy one to use because you need to be careful during capture to expose it right to not mess it up during LCC.

You are right that 43, 60 and 120 is the absolute killer combo, especially for architecture were a slower pace is not a problem.

The benefit of the Rofies would be to have less post processing under normal circumstances and where you don't care so much about distortion.

Fine art, landscapes, etc. – Rodie is great of course. But the Magic Three or Four are hard to beat, especially for architecture.

43 XL, 60 XL and Rm3Di or Alpa Max and you are set for any architectural photography challenge.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I love the 28 XL. Shot on the Alpa Max. This is with like 15mm rise! This multi-family apartment complex is literally almost 10m above street level and you get these dramatic shots with this lens. Effortlessly. I mean ... sometimes there's no alternative to the 28 XL.

28mm and 90mm IC. That's wide.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes, I too love mine. I occationally get temped by the Rodi 50hr because it is slightly wider. But then I use the 60xl and shake my head.

I never had the 120a, but several friends do and they love theirs except for a flare issue they had to solve. I also like the sk100, which is relatively new to me. I found one unused sitting on a shelf at a dealer earlier this year. The copy I have is better than my sk90.

I do wish Schneider would get back in, but I realize that's probably not a business decision that makes sense. I think the Fuji 30mm TS is making a lot of folks rethink their technical camera workflow.

Dave

Thanks Dave for all the MTF charts on your site. Big resource over the years!

 

[akaru]

I only do landscape these days, but I am trying to shoot ones that include ancient temples, since they’re kind of integrated where I live. Have no experience shooting architecture so I’m winging it (tips are welcome). Lack of distortion helps, as does the lighter weight in the heat and humidity. Smaller is nice as well, since big is associated with expensive, and expensive gets you robbed. I do get a lot of tiling on the 28 though, and sometimes the 35. Maybe I need to take the IQ4150A in under warranty.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well a big one is to wake up at 4 AM to take the shot at the crack of dawn. The main reason I'll never be able to fully deep dive into this genre!

 

[daz7]

I would say that's "magic 8" as SK72L, 150N, 180T and 210T are no less exceptional.

 

[jng]

Interesting thread - thanks, Paul, for starting it.

I recently picked up the 60XL from @4x5Australian - so far the lens has proven to be lovely although I do need to get out more and actually use it (that damned day job thing keeps getting in the way). It needs a bit of touching up for CA at the extreme edges and corners when shifted, but C1 seems to handle this just fine.

My 120 ASPH falls under the "till death do us part" category. It renders beautifully and seems never to run out of usable image circle on my Cambo. I've been thinking that the 60XL and 120 ASPH would make a great and relatively compact two-lens kit: except when anticipating the need for wide shots (e.g., for perspective) I could leave the Rodie 40HR at home and just stitch with the 60XL. Recently this plan got tossed out the window when Dante (successfully) tempted me with a 90HR-SW that recently came my way. So I think that 60-90-120 may be my new Holy Trinity (a term originally applied to the 14-24, 24-70, and 70-200 Canon and Nikon zooms) with the two Hasselblad Superachromats (250mm and 350mm) added in when long reach is needed. Wait, that's 5 lenses, maybe 6 if including the 40. Time to start lifting weights!

The odd lens out at this point will be my Rodie 70HR, which is too close to the 60 and as noted is also a bit too close to the 90 (or vice versa). Hmmmm. This, to be sure, is not even a first-world problem.

John

P.S. The flare issue with the 120 ASPH to which @dchew referred is/was actually specific to these lenses mounted in the Cambo long barrel, which had inadequate flocking that created veiling flare (since corrected for those who asked Cambo for a fix). Of course, the long barrel configuration limits shift to ~14mm, which to me is a shame although it does obviate futzing with the rear extender that's required for the short barrel version. In my experience flare is a non-issue with the latter and allows one to use the entire, glorious image circle of the lens. YMMV, of course...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I would say that's "magic 8" as SK72L, 150N, 180T and 210T are no less exceptional.

I know ... its though to argue about levels of exceptional with SK!

Congrats to the 60 XL. Hold on to it!

BUT – the Magic Four was the last bunch they got out of the door, especially to cover the ultra-wide-angle to wide-angle side ... which is the critical domain for digital lens design at the ultra high resolution levels we are talking about.

By design, longer focal lengths are sharper with less need for correction as the viewing angle is a lot narrower; and I find the latest-gen analogue ones like the Sironar-S 210 for example are AS sharp as the 210 T. I own both and had a hard time distinguishing them.

The Magic Four though were a new tour de force to rein in the wide side. I think in the press releases they even talk about an evolution in production methods, etc.

The lenses you mentioned are in my humble view easily replaceable by analogue lenses and the 72 like the 70 HR falls a bit through the cracks between the 60 XL and 90 HR.

To give you another interesting example around the blur on the long side. The 100 Apo Digitar is in fact the same lens as the 100 APO symmar. Excellent on digital. 300 bucks on ebay.

On the wide side though, any Grandagon or Super Angulon massively loses out against the 43 and 60 XL or the 32, 40, 50 HRs for that matter.

Grandagon 65, although great, is a clear notch below the 60 XL and the 55 Sironar Digital – I've seen raws from 4x5 Australian – deteriorates rapidly with a bit of shift.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Interesting thread - thanks, Paul, for starting it.

I recently picked up the 60XL from @4x5Australian - so far the lens has proven to be lovely although I do need to get out more and actually use it (that damned day job thing keeps getting in the way). It needs a bit of touching up for CA at the extreme edges and corners when shifted, but C1 seems to handle this just fine.

My 120 ASPH falls under the "till death do us part" category. It renders beautifully and seems never to run out of usable image circle on my Cambo. I've been thinking that the 60XL and 120 ASPH would make a great and relatively compact two-lens kit: except when anticipating the need for wide shots (e.g., for perspective) I could leave the Rodie 40HR at home and just stitch with the 60XL. Recently this plan got tossed out the window when Dante (successfully) tempted me with a 90HR-SW that recently came my way. So I think that 60-90-120 may be my new Holy Trinity (a term originally applied to the 14-24, 24-70, and 70-200 Canon and Nikon zooms) with the two Hasselblad Superachromats (250mm and 350mm) added in when long reach is needed. Wait, that's 5 lenses, maybe 6 if including the 40. Time to start lifting weights!

The odd lens out at this point will be my Rodie 70HR, which is too close to the 60 and as noted is also a bit too close to the 90 (or vice versa). Hmmmm. This, to be sure, is not even a first-world problem.

John

P.S. The flare issue with the 120 ASPH to which @dchew referred is/was actually specific to these lenses mounted in the Cambo long barrel, which had inadequate flocking that created veiling flare (since corrected for those who asked Cambo for a fix). Of course, the long barrel configuration limits shift to ~14mm, which to me is a shame although it does obviate futzing with the rear extender that's required for the short barrel version. In my experience flare is a non-issue with the latter and allows one to use the entire, glorious image circle of the lens. YMMV, of course...

With exteme we are talking post 20mm, right – before that I find the 60 XL stellar through and through and this covers 95% of tech cams produced and cases which I appreciate a lot!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Stumbled on this series of videos the other day – sharpness and huge IC evident – 60 XL: if you know, you know.