Selective morality of geopolitics & Man's Inhumanity to Man

[Jorgen Udvang]

Again - This is not a soccer match where you root for one team or another. The is a life and death struggle going on right now by a one country invading another under the pretense of de- Nazification. One would think they could come up with a more original excuse instead or recycling a WWII campaign, their last moment of glory in the great Patriotic War. ALL countries in Europe and North and South America have Nazis - Russia included. I don't see the Netherlands invading Hungary.
I agree with you up until the second paragraph. These (some) people either have a hard time staying on subject or are deflecting for ulterior motives. You can like Ukraine, (or Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, or Crimea) or not. But what people are saying is the Ukraine brought this on them selves, That Putin is justified in invading, and of course crimes will be committed in any invasion. that cities will be leveled. That most are propaganda, Yes truth is the first casualty of war, but truth today, with communications what they are is much harder to hide. There is black and white when it comes to life, the being alive and being dead. Putin wants to subjugate Ukraine, eradicate their culture, control their foreign affairs much as Czarist Russia did. How do we know? Putin has questioned their right to exist.

Putin is wrong - full stop. Now Finland and possibly Sweden joining NATO. The Baltic States reinforcing their defenses. Possible unrest in the aforementioned Countries, encouraged by the success Ukrainians have had against the powerful Russian Military, to say nothing of unstable Belarus. Let Putin fix his own Country so the Russian people can have a fairer more meaningful and confrontable life. What he is doing in Ukraine is wrong. The Ukrainian people have tasted life free of Russian control and will not voluntarily submit to returning. That is why they are fighting and dying.

What-aboutism might have its place in a scholastic augment or op-ed page as click bait, but not in a situation when one country invades another to restore an Empire that is blessed by the National Church.

I can agree with you on one thing: "Putin is wrong - full stop."

But your black and white vision is scary. Your inability to see proportions is scary. People have been dying from war in Ukraina for 8 years, and nobody seemed to mind. People are dying in enormous numbers in Yemen at the hand of a neighbouring country with western support, and nobody seems to mind. A third of Syria is occupied by a western country and civilians bombed on a regular basis and nobody seems to mind. When Afghanistan was occupied and bombed by western countries for 20 years with tens of thousands of victims, nobody seemed to mind. Even when civilians are targeted and killed by the Ukrainian army in Mariupol (there are sufficient interviews of the locals online to verify that), nobody seems to mind.

Because there is one evil, and one evil only, and that evil i Vladimir Putin. Everybody else dying or having their lives destroyed from wars are "Whataboutism", the sacred word that means "we don't give a shit about you because we support that war".

 

[Abstraction]

“If you make people think they are thinking, they will love you. If you really make them think, they’ll hate you.” - Don Marquis

 

[alajuela]

I can agree with you on one thing: "Putin is wrong - full stop."

But your black and white vision is scary. Your inability to see proportions is scary. People have been dying from war in Ukraina for 8 years, and nobody seemed to mind. People are dying in enormous numbers in Yemen at the hand of a neighbouring country with western support, and nobody seems to mind. A third of Syria is occupied by a western country and civilians bombed on a regular basis and nobody seems to mind. When Afghanistan was occupied and bombed by western countries for 20 years with tens of thousands of victims, nobody seemed to mind. Even when civilians are targeted and killed by the Ukrainian army in Mariupol (there are sufficient interviews of the locals online to verify that), nobody seems to mind.

Because there is one evil, and one evil only, and that evil i Vladimir Putin. Everybody else dying or having their lives destroyed from wars are "Whataboutism", the sacred word that means "we don't give a shit about you because we support that war".

maybe you didn’t mind, but doesn’t mean nobody else did or does. Please do no assume my intentions or transpose you prejudices. . I see you are using unidentified quotes, so I will assume they are yours.
great when people have the answers to other peoples problems, and Suffer no consequences when they are most probably wrong
Adios

 

[pegelli]

Again - This is not a soccer match where you root for one team or another. The is a life and death struggle going on right now by a one country invading another under the pretense of de- Nazification. One would think they could come up with a more original excuse instead or recycling a WWII campaign, their last moment of glory in the great Patriotic War. ALL countries in Europe and North and South America have Nazis - Russia included. I don't see the Netherlands invading Hungary.
I agree with you up until the second paragraph. These (some) people either have a hard time staying on subject or are deflecting for ulterior motives. You can like Ukraine, (or Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, or Crimea) or not. But what people are saying is the Ukraine brought this on them selves, That Putin is justified in invading, and of course crimes will be committed in any invasion. that cities will be leveled. That most are propaganda, Yes truth is the first casualty of war, but truth today, with communications what they are is much harder to hide. There is black and white when it comes to life, the being alive and being dead. Putin wants to subjugate Ukraine, eradicate their culture, control their foreign affairs much as Czarist Russia did. How do we know? Putin has questioned their right to exist.

Putin is wrong - full stop. Now Finland and possibly Sweden joining NATO. The Baltic States reinforcing their defenses. Possible unrest in the aforementioned Countries, encouraged by the success Ukrainians have had against the powerful Russian Military, to say nothing of unstable Belarus. Let Putin fix his own Country so the Russian people can have a fairer more meaningful and confrontable life. What he is doing in Ukraine is wrong. The Ukrainian people have tasted life free of Russian control and will not voluntarily submit to returning. That is why they are fighting and dying.

What-aboutism might have its place in a scholastic augment or op-ed page as click bait, but not in a situation when one country invades another to restore an Empire that is blessed by the National Church.

With all due respect alajuela, no members in this thread are saying that Ukraine brought this on themselves, no members in this thread are saying that Putin/Russian actions are justified. I haven't read that in any of the posts here. And everybody here agrees Putin is wrong. Secondly this is not the Solidarity with Ukraine thread, but a thread where the topic is discussing why some of the news media neglect similar atrocities elsewhere and neglect some of Ukraine's failings. The OP was interested in an open discussion on that which is the intent of this thread. Ukraine deserves our support for this bloody unjustified invasion but it doesn't make them whiter than white, for instance shelling their own civilians in the Donbas region, outlawing the Russian language and not living up to the Minsk agreements are things that we should have no place for in the European Union either. Do these things justify the Russian invasion, in my mind not in a million years but neglecting them from the European/Western side will make a solution to this conflict more difficult. I think this is very far from "whataboutism" but a genuine way to discuss these things in a level headed way without personal attacks and insults. I agree this should not turn this into rooting for a soccer match but that seems to be what you are doing, everybody who doesn’t unconditionally supports Ukraine in all they do immediately get a mouthful and are accused of being Putin supporters based on your projections and not based on anything they posted in this thread.

 

[alajuela]

Words have meaning and I read the words. You are saying these posts I have answered are just polite, conversational cocktail talk.
Well I guess I misjudged the weight of the subject. Death does that at least to me. BTW read some of the links posted in these posts.
Adios

 

[pegelli]

@ alajuela, it is a serious subject and discussed as such because it involves the death of many innocent people. That's why making baseless accusations should not be taken lightly, at least not by me. If you can't face up to that it's really your problem, not mine.

 

[pegelli]

I looked into this so called Russian language ban: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/04/ukrainians-protest-russian-language-law

This article is 9 years old, the ban I'm talking about came about in 2017 and was finally in effect in 2020 so is more recent than this "evidence"
https://www.fairplanet.org/editors-...-scrap-russian-language-from-their-curricula/


And on all the other stuff, yes there has been many cases of Russian war crimes and I never denied that, I even agree they're the main aggressor, but they don't disprove that warcrimes have been committed on the other side. And what about the Minsk agreements?

 

[alajuela]

For everyone in the dark here
Summary of the Minsk agreement from Reuters

What are the Minsk agreements on the Ukraine conflict?

U.S. authorities have warned Russia not to invade Ukraine and urged both countries to return to a set of agreements designed to end a separatist war by Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

The agreement applies to only the area the Russia says is theirs now. BTW Russia said they don’t have abide since they have no troops there (like Crimea)

but since this is such misunderstood item. Then you need to read the Budapest which has more signatories. This BTW has to do with Nuclear Weapons. I put it about a 10 on a 10 scale.

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I also will withdraw from any discussion with Putin apologists.

 

[pegelli]

For everyone in the dark here
Summary of the Minsk agreement from Reuters

What are the Minsk agreements on the Ukraine conflict?

U.S. authorities have warned Russia not to invade Ukraine and urged both countries to return to a set of agreements designed to end a separatist war by Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

Can you elaborate on what Ukraine has done to implement points 4, 11 and 12 of the Minsk 2 agreement? The only thing the Reuters article mentions is what Russia hasn't done on point 10, but we already know that Russia is the biggest lyer in this conflict (or any conflict they're involved in)

I also will withdraw from any discussion with Putin apologists.

Easy, none in the room but aparently it makes you feel good to keep insulting and unfoundetly accuse people who have a different opinion than yours as "Putin apologists" while they still have said over and over again that Putin and Russia are the main unjustified agressor in this conflict. It tells me exactly what kind of person you are and I will keep reacting to that , wether you like it or not. I have no problem with a discussion on different viewpoints on this, but twisting my words into something I haven't said (and is even 100% opposed to what I said) is despicable.

 

[haroldg]

Well, this is against my better judgment but…

@Jorgen Udvang @pegelli
You continue to spew Russian propaganda disguised as honest discussion. Until this site is cleaned up, I certainly won’t be posting anything here, or buying anything from the forums sponsor. It’s a pretty bad look this is the major thread on the forum currently.

Have fun

It's disgusting how these posters behave, blinded by ignorance. Bunch of old men acting like typical, intolerant old men... Slava Ukraini!

Look at this disgusting thread as well: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-there-many-women-here.72078/

You people should be ashamed!

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

There's a problem of dimensions here, of scale. The war in Ukraine is not a global war, it's a European one, a conflict between two European countries. Western countries are seeking, in some cases demanding, solidarity with Ukraine through sanctioning Russia and its citizens by nations across the globe. However:

- The consequences of the wars against Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen are still causing much greater problems for people in the Middle East than the war in Ukraine. There are still millions of homeless after the war in Iraq. Libyans still live in a country with destroyed civil infrastructure, slave markets and political chaos. Afghanistan has had the carpet withdrawn from under their feet and only the Chinese are helping. Syria still has a third of its area occupied by a foreign nation. Yemen is still being bombed by a neighbouring country, while hundreds of thousands of people risk dying of hunger due to the war, sanctions and blockades. And Al Qaeda and Daesh are still roaming free.

- The consequences of western colonialism and western wars in many Asian countries are still much greater problems for them than the war in Ukraine. In Laos, 50 people die every year from some of the 80 million bombs left in and on the ground after the Vietnam war, a war that ended more than 50 years ago. The Vietnamese are still rebuilding their country after that same war, as is Cambodia. Nobody said sorry. Nobody contributes to that work, other than some NGOs and in some cases China. Countries like Myanmar, Thailand and the Philippines still suffer from armed ethnic/religious conflicts that are direct results of decisions made by western colonisers more than a hundred years ago. Pakistan, India and Bangladesh still suffers from decisions made by their coloniser less than a hundred years ago.

- Western countries are still stealing the resources from numerous countries in Asia and Africa based on cooperation with murderous dictators and/or arrangements made while the countries were still colonies. Global corporations extract the resources with the blessing of western countries while the populations of those countries are left with crumbs.

And now the West expects those countries to act in solidarity over a war in Europe "because people are dying". If it wasn't so tragic, I would think it was a joke.

If politicians in Europe or North America want to start World War III, please name it West War I and keep it on Western and Russian soil. Nobody in Asia is interested in contributing to a war initiated in Europe again. I doubt people in Africa or Latin America are interested either. People here have their conflicts, but they don't expect people from other parts of the world to come and die for them. They actually prefer them not to come and "help". They have had that before, and it didn't turn out well.

The irony of it all is that the country that profits from all this, including the war in Ukraine and not least the sanctions that follow it, is China. China is not a shining star of democracy to put it mildly, but when they come visiting, they bring cash, not bombs, and they exchange goods, not threats. They don't bring freedom, but when they arrive in countries that never were very free anyway, people don't really care much. Given the choice between food and democracy, most people will choose food.

 

[Duff photographer]

I would prefer it to be closed, which may sound strange, since I'm one of the contributors to this thread (and I can't seem to keep my fingers off the keyboard when I see these things popping up). There are however other fora that are more suitable for this. I prefer Getdpi to be my photography hangout.

Yes.

...and I make this a general comment to all.

My comments in the opening post "A reminder to keep any discussion respectful" have been ignored by certain individuals. My hope was that, as the DPI forum had a more intellectual and considerate membership than most, that a thoughtful discussion could be had with examples, experiences, ideas and perceptions exchanged and understood, stimulating a multitude of alternative thinking and consideration, as Pegelli has pointed out on more than one occasion. Even if we may not agree, as adults with a specific interest (and thus possess at least some intelligence), it was hoped that we would be able to give each other mutual consideration and respect. In such an atmosphere, it would have been interesting to see where the discussion would have gone.

Sadly, any reasoned discussion has been bastardised by trolling. Maybe the heading of the thread appears in Google searches and has attracted those types intent on filling their lives with negativity and hate as certainly one pointless troll has appeared as a result of that. Nonetheless, that in itself is (was) an interesting 'experiment'.

Yes, such discussions can be had on other fora of a more appropriate nature, but it was interesting to learn more about those who are regular visitors to the site (for better or worse). There is more to life than just photography, but I completely understand and empathise that some people occasionally wish to hide in a forum that is dedicated to their interest and switch off from the world.

I feel this thread will now follow the same ditch it has been pushed into, those trying to take it out of the ditch to explore the surrounding countryside and discuss the broader nature of the 'selective morality of geopolitics and Man's inhumanity to Man' and those intent on keeping it in the ditch, incapable of understanding what is being discussed, or reading what they only want to read and twisting it 180 degrees for their own depraved purposes, and then reacting with hate, basically calling anyone with a differing opinion or experience bad names as an argument in some cases.

As I said, it's been an interesting experiment, but it's over now. We can all go back to taking terrible photographs .

I'd like to thank those who contributed intelligent and considered comments to this thread (you know who you are). Take care.


Cheers,
Duff.

P.S. Just a few additions cos' it can't be ignored.

Guess who Ukranian president Zelesnky is funded by and heavily associated with...

United States Files Civil Forfeiture Complaint for Proceeds of Alleged Fraud and Theft from PrivatBank in Ukraine

The United States filed a civil forfeiture complaint today in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida alleging that more than $6 million in proceeds from the sale of commercial real estate in Dallas, Texas, which property was maintained and improved using the proceeds of...

www.justice.gov

 

[Duff photographer]

In other news, there are some journalists who are trying to report on the truth in Ukraine. The reports on Western 'fake news' given in the piece have since been verified as such, independently and by the United Nations...

Dutch Journalist: ‘We are here, in Donbass, to awaken Westerners deluded by propaganda’ | MR Online

There are only a handful of Western journalists on the ground in Donbass, while the Western mainstream press is rubber-stamping fake news about the Ukrainian crisis using the same templates it previously exploited in Iraq, Libya and Syria, says Dutch independent journalist Sonja van den Ende.

mronline.org

Yeah, I know. I said this thread should come to an end, but when verifiable truth does get out and flies in the face of "popular" belief, it sticks in my throat a bit. Back to photographing trees I guess.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Since you have restarted it anyway, here's an Indian point of view. Palki Sharma Upadhyay is a rising star of Indian journalism with background from CNN, and WION, the channel that she now works for, has a growing number of followers, in India as well as in the rest of the world.

The first reportage of this video is, although from Ukraine, not the most interesting. The second one however, that describes the crisis in Iraq, shows how badly things often go after western intervention and war.

 

[TechTalk]

In other news, there are some journalists who are trying to report on the truth in Ukraine. The reports on Western 'fake news' given in the piece have since been verified as such, independently and by the United Nations...

Dutch Journalist: ‘We are here, in Donbass, to awaken Westerners deluded by propaganda’ | MR Online

There are only a handful of Western journalists on the ground in Donbass, while the Western mainstream press is rubber-stamping fake news about the Ukrainian crisis using the same templates it previously exploited in Iraq, Libya and Syria, says Dutch independent journalist Sonja van den Ende.

mronline.org

Yeah, I know. I said this thread should come to an end, but when verifiable truth does get out and flies in the face of "popular" belief, it sticks in my throat a bit. Back to photographing trees I guess.

What on earth leads you to believe that Sonja Van den Ende is a "journalist"? Here's how this propagandist reports on the Mariupol theatre airstrike...

"U.S. Media Are Lying About Russian Atrocities in Mariupol, Says Embedded Reporter at Ground Zero"

"I was given a completely different story about the Mariupol theater “bombing” from a Russian army spokesman whom I interviewed. He said the following: [Blah, Blah, Blah... Russian military propaganda]"

She's a useful idiot spreading propaganda for a Russian dictator among other authoritarian regimes. You can feed on her baloney in political propaganda sources like Monthly Review (mronline.org)) or the Tehran Times if that's the kind of "independent journalism" that appeals to you. But, it's about as far from "independent" or "journalism" as you can get.

You can call her an "independent journalist", but she's actually just a mouthpiece for authoritarians. Anyone that wants to lap up that kind of trash and call it "journalism" and believe that they're independent thinkers because they believe such garbage is welcome to consume all of it they like.

Democracies have a great many imperfections and have committed horrible egregious acts and will likely do so again. So, it's easy to deflect and distract from the atrocities committed by authoritarian regimes by pointing to the failings of democratic countries. But, that's all it is... deflection and distraction to provide cover for brutal thugs like Putin. It fools only the gullible.

‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’ — Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

 

[TechTalk]

...Ukraine deserves our support for this bloody unjustified invasion but it doesn't make them whiter than white, for instance ... outlawing the Russian language...

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/08/sergey-lavrov/Russian has not been banned in Ukraine, despite repeated claims

Russian has not been banned in Ukraine, despite repeated claims

PolitiFact - Maria Ramirez Uribe - June 8, 2022

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine banned the Russian language.

During a press conference on June 6, Lavrov said Ukraine adopted "laws banning the Russian language," claiming the Russian language was prohibited in "education, the media, everyday contacts, etc." Lavrov mentioned that if English had been banned in Ireland or French in Belgium, Europe would have responded differently.

But Lavrov is mischaracterizing a Ukrainian language law. It does not ban Russian from the country.

In April 2019, Ukraine’s parliament approved a language law making Ukrainian the mandatory language for public sector workers. The adoption of this law required citizens to know Ukrainian and obliged civil servants, soldiers, doctors and teachers to communicate in Ukrainian.

Some exceptions were made under the law for some minority languages like English and other European Union languages. The Russian language does not fall under this category.

In January 2022, a new provision of the law was introduced, under which print media outlets registered in Ukraine were required to publish in Ukrainian. This did not ban publications in other languages. Instead, the law required that all content also be published in Ukrainian...

Our ruling

Lavrov referenced the banning and prohibition of Russian in Ukraine, particularly in "education, the media, everyday contacts," during a press conference.

Despite a language law that establishes Ukrainian as the country’s official language and prioritizes its use in civil society, Russian has not been banned.

We rate Lavrov’s statement False. [Excerpt... More at Link Above]

 

[TechTalk]

...The consequences of the wars against Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen are still causing much greater problems for people in the Middle East than the war in Ukraine...

Russian troops are "still causing much greater problems for people" in Ukraine trying to live under military bombardment and assault... caused by an invasion ordered by a dictator.

...The consequences of western colonialism and western wars in many Asian countries are still much greater problems for them than the war in Ukraine...

Not for Ukrainians. For Ukrainians, there are "still much greater problems for them" in Ukraine... caused by a Russian invasion ordered by a dictator.

...Western countries are still stealing the resources from numerous countries in Asia and Africa based on cooperation with murderous dictators...

None of which makes the invasion of Ukraine and the resulting death and destruction ordered by the "murderous dictator" Putin any more tolerable for Ukrainians.

...And now the West expects those countries to act in solidarity over a war in Europe "because people are dying". If it wasn't so tragic, I would think it was a joke....

It's no joke for dead Ukrainians or their loved ones... "because people are dying" there.

...China is not a shining star of democracy to put it mildly, but when they come visiting, they bring cash, not bombs, and they exchange goods, not threats...

Tell that to Tibet, India, and the Uyghurs, among others.

 

[TechTalk]

...Even when civilians are targeted and killed by the Ukrainian army in Mariupol (there are sufficient interviews of the locals online to verify that)...

Oh... well, if some people said it online then it must be true! Then again, perhaps not. Who, what, and where is the source?

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/12/Russian missiles are blasting civilians in Ukraine

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe/Ukraine War: Putin demands Mariupol surrender to end shelling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/08/sergey-lavrov/Russian has not been banned in Ukraine, despite repeated claims

Russian has not been banned in Ukraine, despite repeated claims

PolitiFact - Maria Ramirez Uribe - June 8, 2022

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine banned the Russian language.

During a press conference on June 6, Lavrov said Ukraine adopted "laws banning the Russian language," claiming the Russian language was prohibited in "education, the media, everyday contacts, etc." Lavrov mentioned that if English had been banned in Ireland or French in Belgium, Europe would have responded differently.

But Lavrov is mischaracterizing a Ukrainian language law. It does not ban Russian from the country.

In April 2019, Ukraine’s parliament approved a language law making Ukrainian the mandatory language for public sector workers. The adoption of this law required citizens to know Ukrainian and obliged civil servants, soldiers, doctors and teachers to communicate in Ukrainian.

Some exceptions were made under the law for some minority languages like English and other European Union languages. The Russian language does not fall under this category.

In January 2022, a new provision of the law was introduced, under which print media outlets registered in Ukraine were required to publish in Ukrainian. This did not ban publications in other languages. Instead, the law required that all content also be published in Ukrainian...

Our ruling

Lavrov referenced the banning and prohibition of Russian in Ukraine, particularly in "education, the media, everyday contacts," during a press conference.

Despite a language law that establishes Ukrainian as the country’s official language and prioritizes its use in civil society, Russian has not been banned.

We rate Lavrov’s statement False. [Excerpt... More at Link Above]

Russian language has been banned as primary language in schools in Ukraine, also in predominantly Russian speaking areas. Minorities in Ukraine now has to learn their own language as a foreign language. This mostly affects Russian speaker. The law was voted on in 2017 and became effective in 2020. What would happen if Canada did the same to their French speaking minority?

Later, and number of Russian language TV-stations, political parties etc. have been banned. This started long before the war.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Russian troops are "still causing much greater problems for people" in Ukraine trying to live under military bombardment and assault... caused by an invasion ordered by a dictator.


Not for Ukrainians. For Ukrainians, there are "still much greater problems for them" in Ukraine... caused by a Russian invasion ordered by a dictator.


None of which makes the invasion of Ukraine and the resulting death and destruction ordered by the "murderous dictator" Putin any more tolerable for Ukrainians.


It's no joke for dead Ukrainians or their loved ones... "because people are dying" there.


Tell that to Tibet, India, and the Uyghurs, among others.

Dear Mr. Tech Talk,
This post just proves that you are only interested in current headlines of western media. Do they limit the number of media that you can read at the space station? Yes, the war in Ukraine is a disaster. Yes, Putin is responsible. No, it is not the most catastrophic event on earth this century. That would be the western lead and western supported wars in the Middle East where at least 37 million people have lost their livelihoods and more that a million people their lives, and where entire nations have been reduced from relatively modern, functional societies to failed states.