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AFD MTFs?

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Well, not to be cynical, but probably to take advantage of the digital marketing revolution and sell new lenses. There are a lot of used lenses out there for the 6000 series, and it would be easier for Sinar and Leaf to change them a bit and "optimize" them for digital, leading most people to just buy them out of a perceived sense that the older lenses are inferior. Most people coming to the system who don't know about it might assume that since most of the designs are older and made for film, that they are somehow inadequate for digital. They were superb to begin with and they are surely still superb on digital. But the fact remains that they are a business and if they go out and ask someone to pay over 30,000 dollars for a camera, back and lens, it is an easier sell if every part of that kit is "new and optimized for digital", rather than, "here's your 30,000 camera and standard lens based on the Xenotar from a 50 year old Rollei TLR".
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I have a quick question too, perhaps someone can answer it. Another disadvantage I can see of not having an aperture ring would be that the lenses might not be fully compatible with the older cameras. Does anyone know the story on this? I imagine that it would still work in program or shutter priority mode on a 6008, but not in aperture priority or manual mode. If it does work in those modes, how does one set the aperture?

This would be a disadvantage for anyone who has a Hy6 but also an older 6000 series body. It would mean that they couldn't really use a 6000 series camera for backup if all they had were AFD lenses...they would need to buy another Hy6 for backup if that was a concern to them....that's a hefty price for a backup.
 

EH21

Member
Looking at my Rollei lens collection I think some of these are a good 10-15 years old maybe more and still beautiful. I don't doubt that the newer ones will last as long so probably 15years from now there will be some crazy digital sensor that can take advantage of the quality. By then you'll be using your Hy6 as a backup for the Hy7 or whatever anyway. Probably not a bad investment if you plan to be in the game that long. Man I'd hate to see what the dollar to euro exchange rate will be then.
 

Rethmeier

New member
I just got my 110/2 Zeiss from the US in MINT condition.
I don't think a new one would be any different.
In the box was a Lens booklet with the MTF info of all the Rollei lenses.
If there is any interest I can scan each page.
Regards,
Willem.

N.B The MTF's I have are only for the NON AFD Rollei lenses!
 

David K

Workshop Member
I just got my 110/2 Zeiss from the US in MINT condition.
I don't think a new one would be any different.
In the box was a Lens booklet with the MTF info of all the Rollei lenses.
If there is any interest I can scan each page.
Regards,
Willem.

N.B The MTF's I have are only for the NON AFD Rollei lenses!
Glad to hear the lens was as represented. Always nice when that happens.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Well, not to be cynical, but probably to take advantage of the digital marketing revolution and sell new lenses. There are a lot of used lenses out there for the 6000 series, and it would be easier for Sinar and Leaf to change them a bit and "optimize" them for digital, leading most people to just buy them out of a perceived sense that the older lenses are inferior. Most people coming to the system who don't know about it might assume that since most of the designs are older and made for film, that they are somehow inadequate for digital. They were superb to begin with and they are surely still superb on digital. But the fact remains that they are a business and if they go out and ask someone to pay over 30,000 dollars for a camera, back and lens, it is an easier sell if every part of that kit is "new and optimized for digital", rather than, "here's your 30,000 camera and standard lens based on the Xenotar from a 50 year old Rollei TLR".
So, if I understand you correctly, you think photographers are being baited with its new AFD lenses, without offering any real added value. Bradley also finds that there is no added value in the AFD lenses as well. For me, it is hard to believe that any business would invest in the "better fool" theory, especially Sinar.

Maybe we should hear from Thierry on this issue.

Thierry, please help us to understand what the value proposition is for these AFD lenses. Why should we be buying them? Thanks.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Dear David,

I have planed to inform on this subject. I did not yet, because I first want to have all the information and data from our people to give as correct an answer as possible.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

So, if I understand you correctly, you think photographers are being baited with its new AFD lenses, without offering any real added value. Bradley also finds that there is no added value in the AFD lenses as well. For me, it is hard to believe that any business would invest in the "better fool" theory, especially Sinar.

Maybe we should hear from Thierry on this issue.

Thierry, please help us to understand what the value proposition is for these AFD lenses. Why should we be buying them? Thanks.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Those are not my words David. I don't think Sinar is trying to cheat anyone or saying they have done things that they haven't. I am looking at it as if they were a car company. Auto manufacturers often offer more or less the same car over the course of several model years. So while all they may have changed from 2007 to 2008 might be the shape of the taillights, they can still claim it is a new car.

I think the Rollei/Sinar/Leaf group are doing the same thing -- taking the existing Rollei lenses and changing the cosmetics and incrementally improving the manufacturing process, but I don't think the "driver" is going to notice a difference because everything under the hood is the same. If the optical designs were at all different (I have been told they are not, but I would be happy to be proved wrong), then it might be a different story.

Edit: I am interested to hear Thierry's remarks on the matter, because he is always a source of excellent information.
 
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David Klepacki

New member
Those are not my words David. I don't think Sinar is trying to cheat anyone or saying they have done things that they haven't. I am looking at it as if they were a car company. Auto manufacturers often offer more or less the same car over the course of several model years. So while all they may have changed from 2007 to 2008 might be the shape of the taillights, they can still claim it is a new car.

I think the Rollei/Sinar/Leaf group are doing the same thing -- taking the existing Rollei lenses and changing the cosmetics and incrementally improving the manufacturing process, but I don't think the "driver" is going to notice a difference because everything under the hood is the same. If the optical designs were at all different (I have been told they are not, but I would be happy to be proved wrong), then it might be a different story.

Edit: I am interested to hear Thierry's remarks on the matter, because he is always a source of excellent information.
Stuart, I did not mean to mis-state your remarks. I am only trying to clarify the significance of the AFD lenses, for everyone's benefits.

The facts are that Bradley was already told by Sinar that the AFD lenses have improved resolution, but that there is actually no evidence of it, as you have discovered in your tests at Calumet. According to your car analogy, it would be like a car manufacturer who advertised that their latest model improved the gas mileage form 40 mpg to 60 mpg, and then later discovering that their new car did not really provide 60 mpg after all. It is not like a new yearly car model with cosmetic differences only. We are dealing here with a claim of markedly improved performance, without supporting evidence, especially from the customers (like yourself).
 

EH21

Member
I don't doubt that the newer lenses are better than the old. The question is more whether we can benefit from them without newer sensor technology?
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I think you are missing a key semantic detail. Brad was told that the TOLERANCES were improved, not the actual lp/mm. So they will now toss back a lens that is between 40 and 59 lp/mm, whereas before they would toss it back if it was below 40. So you have a higher rate of quality control, but that does not mean the average lens out of the factory is any better, just that the worst ones out of the factory are better. I have a feeling that most of the rollei lenses more than met the tolerances.
 

David Klepacki

New member
...I have a feeling that most of the rollei lenses more than met the tolerances.
Exactly, and this feeling of yours is probably based on plenty of good experience. And, as someone already pointed out, the Rollei lenses are built to last a lifetime. So, the question still remains as to why Sinar decided on the need to produce these AFD lenses in the first place. I just don't think it is the "new car" business model that you propose. Rollei is still making their non-AFD lenses for its customers, who seem very satisfied.

So far, no one has come forth, on any forum, to show the added value of the Sinar AFD lenses over the Rollei non-AFD versions. In fact, just the opposite has occurred. Not only your posts, but those from Son, DavidK, fotoz, and others are quite happy with and prefer the non-AFD versions of these lenses.

So, whomever Sinar was targeting as their market for AFD lenses has yet to be heard. None of the experienced photographers like yourself seem to be adopting them, basically because the value proposition just doesn't seem to be there.
 

BradleyGibson

New member
There's a difference between "not finding added value" and "not having the information to know whether there is added value". I am definitely in the latter category, not the former.

I'm content to wait until Thierry can report back if there is any more information to be had. I am in no rush. When I mentioned earlier that I would go with AF for now, I meant that if I did have to make a decision on an AF vs. an AFD tomorrow without any additional information, at a 30-50% price premium new, I would probably go for the AF--that is not to say I feel the AFD's have no added value, just that I don't have enough information to justify the additional cost.

Hope that clarifies,
Brad

So, if I understand you correctly, you think photographers are being baited with its new AFD lenses, without offering any real added value. Bradley also finds that there is no added value in the AFD lenses as well. For me, it is hard to believe that any business would invest in the "better fool" theory, especially Sinar.

Maybe we should hear from Thierry on this issue.

Thierry, please help us to understand what the value proposition is for these AFD lenses. Why should we be buying them? Thanks.
 

BradleyGibson

New member
I think you are missing a key semantic detail. Brad was told that the TOLERANCES were improved, not the actual lp/mm. So they will now toss back a lens that is between 40 and 59 lp/mm, whereas before they would toss it back if it was below 40. So you have a higher rate of quality control, but that does not mean the average lens out of the factory is any better, just that the worst ones out of the factory are better. I have a feeling that most of the rollei lenses more than met the tolerances.
Yes, Stuart--this is the point I was clumsily trying to make-you state it very clearly here, thank you!

Based on this, the new lenses on average *might* be significantly better, or they might not. There is not enough information to tell.

-Brad
 

David Klepacki

New member
Yes, Stuart--this is the point I was clumsily trying to make-you state it very clearly here, thank you!

Based on this, the new lenses on average *might* be significantly better, or they might not. There is not enough information to tell.

-Brad
Yes, I think we all agree on this. We will just have to wait to hear the actual value proposition from Thierry regarding Sinar's new AFD lenses, and why they felt it necessary to introduce new lenses that may or may not be improvements over the non-AFD versions.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Alright, here I am with some details about the Hy6 new AFD lenses and the difference(s) with the older AF and non-AF lenses for the Rolleiflex 6008:

- first of all yes, there are tighter tolerances set for the new AFD lenses, to be sure to match the digital resolution requirements. This does not mean that a AFD does necessarily outperform older existing AF and non-AF lenses used on the Hy6, but that it could happen that one particular sample of an older lens gives inferior results.

But the MAIN differences between those new AFD and the previous AF and non-AF lenses are:

- AFD lenses take in count the focus difference (longer path) due to the IR filter on top of the sensor. The glasses, though not newly designed, have been adapted for this.

- The electronic of these AFD lenses is built in a way that the lens can be controlled correctly by the Hy6 camera. This is not always the case with older AF lenses, depending when the lens has been purchased. However, if this AF lens cannot be used in AF mode, it is always possible to use it manually on the Hy6. Or then this older AF lens can be sent to Franke & Heidecke (or their distributors) to undergo a modification of the electronic in order to enable a correct control and AF.

This is all I can say for the time being. Sinar does in no way force people to buy new AFD lenses, nor do we say that the quality will be much better. One of the advantages of the Hy6 system is that it can take totally more than 45 different and existing (still available or discontinued) lenses (see table attached, and which I did already post in an earlier thread here and elsewhere).

Best regards,
Thierry

Yes, I think we all agree on this. We will just have to wait to hear the actual value proposition from Thierry regarding Sinar's new AFD lenses, and why they felt it necessary to introduce new lenses that may or may not be improvements over the non-AFD versions.
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Thierry, thank you for the information. It's great to have such support.

I appreciate this approach to lenses where folks are not forced to upgrade to the latest and greatest, and yet have the option to do so.

Much appreciated,
-Brad
 
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