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Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

lowep

Member
Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?

Certainly - a different project for a different day. This little project was primarily intended to show that perception and reputation don't always match reality. However, as has been pointed out on LL, adding some additional shutter speed like 1/30 - 1/8 would tell more of the overall story. Maybe we'll take a look at that and at the same time add some more cameras. Of course the tricky part is the more cameras you add, the tougher it is to perform the test in general and to perform it apples to apples. I took the opportunity where we happened to have a P65+ in Contax mount (not common) and a P65+ in Hasselblad H mount so it could be apples to apples. So that would have to be a little different type of test, but still would be interesting nonetheless.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Did you use mirror delay on the Hasselblad?
If you did, what time was it set too?
I've never used a H2 ... can you set the mirror delay on that model?

I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

Wish my S2 had that feature.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Certainly - a different project for a different day. This little project was primarily intended to show that perception and reputation don't always match reality. However, as has been pointed out on LL, adding some additional shutter speed like 1/30 - 1/8 would tell more of the overall story. Maybe we'll take a look at that and at the same time add some more cameras. Of course the tricky part is the more cameras you add, the tougher it is to perform the test in general and to perform it apples to apples. I took the opportunity where we happened to have a P65+ in Contax mount (not common) and a P65+ in Hasselblad H mount so it could be apples to apples. So that would have to be a little different type of test, but still would be interesting nonetheless.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Thanks for this Steve.

Since I used a C645 prior to moving to the H system, I also wondered about the mirror slap ... however, I also wondered about the effect the shutter itself had on vibrations. When you lock up the mirror on both cameras, the answer is obvious when you hear the minuscule "snick" of the H leaf-shutter and virtually feel nothing from the camera.

I also agree that tripod mounting is no assurance of maximum acuity. I used to shoot sequential still images for stop-action test commercials for TV (Photomatics). The tech guy would line them up in layers and turn them on and off in sequence to make sure there was no background movement. I quickly learned that you couldn't manually press the shutter button without creating movement no matter how locked down and sand bagged the tripod was. When I switched to a long cable release, it solved the problem.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?
IMO, part of the H advantage is that it is a dedicated Leaf Shutter camera. The S camera also uses leaf shutter lenses, but the focal plane shutter is still active and has to get out of the way before the camera can capture a leaf shutter image ... so there is no advantage in using leaf shutter mode to mitigate the effect of the focal plane shutter.

HY6 would be an interesting test against the H camera (with the mirror delay set on the H, since it is there to use in critical situations).

Are there other MFD cameras that have the mirror delay option? If not, they should add it because it really works.

- Marc
 

Bildifokus

Member
I've never used a H2 ... can you set the mirror delay on that model?

I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

Wish my S2 had that feature.

- Marc
I've only used the H4, I do not know if there is a mirror delay in the H2.
 

erlingmm

Active member
IMO, part of the H advantage is that it is a dedicated Leaf Shutter camera. The S camera also uses leaf shutter lenses, but the focal plane shutter is still active and has to get out of the way before the camera can capture a leaf shutter image ... so there is no advantage in using leaf shutter mode to mitigate the effect of the focal plane shutter.
...

- Marc
You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?

The mirror was locked up on both cameras. The H2 (actually it might have been a H4X, can't recall) had the mirror delay function active and set to 100ms. I find the 200ms setting to distracting because it makes me feel like I accidentally set a slow shutter speed or something and it throws me off. The 100ms setting to me is a nice compromise and yes, it certainly has a positive impact. Both cameras were mounted to a Cambo Studio Stand with an Induro PHQ 5 Way Pan Head and were released from the release command of Capture One. There was no manual release occurring at the camera level.

Yes, the shutter has an impact. This is far from a definitive test - it's important to keep in mind the amount of vibration is a sum of all involved components. From that standpoint, some additional testing at slightly faster shutter speeds in the 1/8 - 1/30 range will tell more of a complete story. This was mostly to put at least a little reality into what we've always thought over the years. More to come soon, I hope, as time allows.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

lowep

Member
I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

- Marc
Now that makes me curious about how you manage to shoot hand held with mirror delay without losing track of whatever is in front of the camera?

Maybe this has something to do with coordination skills. Or maybe more doing and less thinking :eek:

For example, I have also found I can with practice and perseverance improve my manual focusing (using the technique Marc so kindly suggested in a different post) but have not yet got to the point where I am confident doing so in a critical situation.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Now that makes me curious about how you manage to shoot hand held with mirror delay without losing track of whatever is in front of the camera?

Maybe this has something to do with coordination skills. Or maybe more doing and less thinking :eek:

For example, I have also found I can with practice and perseverance improve my manual focusing (using the technique Marc so kindly suggested in a different post) but have not yet got to the point where I am confident doing so in a critical situation.
The mirror delay is measured in micro seconds, and is virtually imperceptible in normal use ... which sounds like voodoo, but in practice actually makes a difference.

The manual focus suggestion does require "more doing" until it become muscle memory reflex. Previous habits took years to ingrain themselves, so any new techniques take time. BTW, it was a journalist that taught me that technique years ago, it wasn't my idea.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?
Yes, that would be effective if on a tripod and locked down shooting a set image. My comment was more about hand-held work in ambient requiring lower shutter speeds where the shutter vibration may play a role in micro sharpness. I often work with the S2 on a mono-pod when needing to be mobile and somewhat spontaneous yet want a bit sharper result at questionable shutter speeds.

It takes a while to get used to how the S camera accomplishes use of the leaf shutter because the focal plane shutter releases then the camera shoots ... and while it is a very fast sequence, it is still oddly unnerving at first ... almost feels like a bit of a delay after using the camera in focal plane mode.

- Marc
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi Steve,

I'm can't find the results of the tests comparison between the hasselblad H and the contax -they might not be online anymore. Do you remember what they conclude?

Thanks,
Jose

Hi Jose -

I'll see if I can resurrect that article.

I do recallthe results were surpsngly similar, although, as someone pointed out, at the shutter speeds I was using, the ramifications of the mirror slap would be somewhat reduced, and perhaps testing at say 1/20th or 1/30th of a second would be a better guage. regardles, I just thought the results were interesting, because the mirror response of the Conatx was always described with terms like buttery, while the H was described as an earth moving slap. I don't have feelings one way or the other, I just like objectivity and looking deeper. If I can resurrect the article, I'll post here and re-link it to the original post.


Steve Hendrix
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I remember long, long ago when the Pentax 645 film camera was around for a while a lot of people complained about the mirror slap ruining their longer exposure time images because it had no mirror lock up facility. I got curious about it then, as the P645 mirror definitely made a little bit of a racket in its operation. I rigged up a pencil beam laser light aligned with the lens on both my Nikon F and the P645 so that I could see it on a gray backdrop. With my Nikon F, I could clearly see a little perturbation in slow hand-held exposures (1/30 to 1/4 second and slower) when I didn't have the mirror locked up, and none when the mirror was locked up. The P645 had a nice trick where you could remove the lens and just push the mirror up with your finger to simulate a locked mirror (It would reset after the exposure). The curious thing was that I never saw any perturbation of the laser spot at all with it, regardless of whether I locked the mirror up or not. I can only suppose that Pentax did an awesome job of damping the big mirror's motion prior to the shutter operation, and all the vibration and noise followed the shutter closing.

I likely wasted two-three rolls of film in each camera doing these tests ... Sheesh, that's so much easier to deal with now with digital capture! :)

G
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi Jose -

I'll see if I can resurrect that article.

I do recallthe results were surpsngly similar, although, as someone pointed out, at the shutter speeds I was using, the ramifications of the mirror slap would be somewhat reduced, and perhaps testing at say 1/20th or 1/30th of a second would be a better guage. regardles, I just thought the results were interesting, because the mirror response of the Conatx was always described with terms like buttery, while the H was described as an earth moving slap. I don't have feelings one way or the other, I just like objectivity and looking deeper. If I can resurrect the article, I'll post here and re-link it to the original post.


Steve Hendrix

Here is the article with an updated URL. It would have been a benefit to shoot it at some different shutter speeds, but I still think it was interesting to see how they reacted to their respective mirrors.

https://www.captureintegration.com/a-look-in-the-mirror-slap-contax-vs-hasselblad-h/


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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