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Hasselblad X1D

jerome_m

Member
I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
Why would Fuji come along a MF camera? Sure, they had some in their film days, but the question is: why would they develop a MF camera now? Their X-series of cameras is doing very well, I would rather expect them to continue investing in that direction.

And the idea that Fuji could do it much cheaper is strange. The X1D is about the price the Pentax was when it was first presented. New high megapixels 24x36 cameras and their lenses are markedly more expensive than the previous generation. If anything, I expect the price of new high end cameras to increase by Photokina, not the other way round.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Everyone is thinking Sony or Fuji while the company that really maybe the one is Phase. They have the resources they already have the sensor and they own all the rights to Mamiya and Leaf. They have maybe the best shot at this and who knows it already maybe in the works. Here is the kicker in all this and hold the real royal flush is Sony imaging. They control both companies sensors. It would also not be that hard to turn there current new body with some integration of course and make it into a mirror less body. Surely They can pop three lenses out for release too. Not sure but they probably own the patent on the Mamiya 7 glass. Would it be that hard to startup the production on them and update them for digital. Point being no matter how you slice the cheese they are in the best position to make a move on something like this. They can also do a adapter for all there current Phase One lenses just like Hassy. I know one thing for sure they love to go after each other. Lol

Question is what's lurking behind those doors. LOL

They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
Honestly Guy


I think that Sony's base has little interest in a camera that is north of $4K ... not to mention lenses and computer hardware to handle
50Mp files and layers. So this may not have a major impact on their bottom line.

They may want to have bragging rights to embellish their chip gravitas so they may take a hit just to be there.

If they enter the fray I hope that they find someone who can tune their UI. It is an unmitigated disaster and
most MF folks have no patience for poor programming and user interface.

Still ... at this level I will back industrial design and permanence ... not flavor of the month.

Interesting times...


Bob
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
In the interview with the Hasselblad CEO, one of the interesting things to me about the X1D was what he said about the development time. IIRC, it was "about a year and a half", the idea having been floated about a year before that.

The X1D is a very simple body when you analyze it: a new casting, sensor and electronics from the X6H/X5H, no shutter, and no mirror. Development of two lenses with essentially the same mount electronics but for a shorter mount register; apertures and shutters in the lenses with control protocols well established and inherited from the XH line—mount simply extended for the shorter flange register.

I suspect that developing a body like this, even a mirrorless body, with a focal plane shutter would have doubled the time to market due to all the additional work required to develop and tailor a shutter to this new body. If that is a reasonable assumption, for Fuji or Phase to have a similar product with focal plane shutter ready for introduction this Fall means that they might have to have been working on it since late 2012 or thereabouts. And the development costs would be greater purely on the basis of the amount of time required to do it. What would all that do to the price, despite the presumably greater production resources that a company like Fuji or Phase could throw at it?

All just speculating and playing the "what if" game. Note that I'm not even sure whether the present Phase cameras are in-body shutter or in-lens shutters. :)

G
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Honestly Guy


I think that Sony's base has little interest in a camera that is north of $4K ... not to mention lenses and computer hardware to handle
50Mp files and layers. So this may not have a major impact on their bottom line.

They may want to have bragging rights to embellish their chip gravitas so they may take a hit just to be there.

If they enter the fray I hope that they find someone who can tune their UI. It is an unmitigated disaster and
most MF folks have no patience for poor programming and user interface.

Still ... at this level I will back industrial design and permanence ... not flavor of the month.

Interesting times...


Bob
I was talking about Phase jumping in
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In the interview with the Hasselblad CEO, one of the interesting things to me about the X1D was what he said about the development time. IIRC, it was "about a year and a half", the idea having been floated about a year before that.

The X1D is a very simple body when you analyze it: a new casting, sensor and electronics from the X6H/X5H, no shutter, and no mirror. Development of two lenses with essentially the same mount electronics but for a shorter mount register; apertures and shutters in the lenses with control protocols well established and inherited from the XH line—mount simply extended for the shorter flange register.

I suspect that developing a body like this, even a mirrorless body, with a focal plane shutter would have doubled the time to market due to all the additional work required to develop and tailor a shutter to this new body. If that is a reasonable assumption, for Fuji or Phase to have a similar product with focal plane shutter ready for introduction this Fall means that they might have to have been working on it since late 2012 or thereabouts. And the development costs would be greater purely on the basis of the amount of time required to do it. What would all that do to the price, despite the presumably greater production resources that a company like Fuji or Phase could throw at it?

All just speculating and playing the "what if" game. Note that I'm not even sure whether the present Phase cameras are in-body shutter or in-lens shutters. :)

G

They are focal plane shutters but they have several lenses that are leaf shutter. But it works in combination with the FP. Not sure how they do that to be honest. This Hassy body I agree is a very simple camera mostly it's a firmware camera. Not a lot of mechanical going on per say. Nothing is moving on it
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Actually there is nothing stopping Phase to make it a leaf shutter camera either . They already have maybe 4 or 5 with LS. But I'm not sure exactly how they operate in conjunction with there current FP body.
 

David Schneider

New member
I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
Rumor seems to be Fuji MFD body for less than X1D and will come out with three lenses.

Something like a digital Mamiya 7 with three lenses would be sweet. An XE2 on steroids!!
 

algrove

Well-known member
Actually there is nothing stopping Phase to make it a leaf shutter camera either . They already have maybe 4 or 5 with LS. But I'm not sure exactly how they operate in conjunction with there current FP body.
You are correct as Phase has 10 LS lenses and 9 FPS lenses they currently offer for MF use on their cameras. Either work perfectly on the XF body I am told. Their latest LS Blue Line lenses are smarter than previous model LS lenses.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I was talking about Phase jumping in
You are correct that Phase has the most to lose ... however they seem the most inertia bound company of the three.

Look at how long they took to introduce the XF ... and it was a marginal improvement over Hasselblads H1 ....

So they may lose a lot if they do not find a way to differentiate their line other than Capture One compatibility.


At least Hasselblad tends to discount their older models periodically ... with Phase it is always high dollar wins.


Bob
 

PeterA

Well-known member
It's a great idea to start knitting my ski mask. I did the math and it needs a lot of help.
Ok I'll play 'devil's advocate' here for you Guy.

You:
1. You already have 42 megapixels in your Sony kit - really not THAT much more resolution out of 50.
2. The Hasselblad X1D doesn't have the versatility of your Sony kit- no focal plane shutter for example and no ability to adapt whatever lens you wish to the 42 megapixels.
3. You love C1 and are used to that workflow
4. You suspect that someone (like Phase One) will announce something similar/.better in due course or Fuji or Sony

Therefore, there is NO reason for you to want to use this camera except GAS.

Me?

1. I don't like the Sony body and menu system - I love the files - but the body is too small for me to be comfortable - the SIZE is great - but ergonomics are wrong - I already have pretty much every great M lens ever made - no way would I switch to less quality for autofocus.
2. My MF gear all maxes out at 40 megapixels and I don't need the size/weight hassle anymore for my shooting - I dont use the stuff. The focal plane shutter option in MF systems is great I pick and choose between focal plane and Leaf - and prefer Leaf shutter if possible - because of strobe shooting - so I'm happy to go with a leaf shutter system
3. I think C1 is a pile of candy crapola as far as image processing and management software goes and far far prefer Phocus( best raw file from MF backs) /CaptureFlow(best light shade processing by far as far as tech camera files go) and LR in THAT order as far as pure RAW image development goes.

You: No legacy systems to sell and switch big tick
Me: legacy systems aplenty - can rationalise heaps of gear at 20 cents in the dollar mind you! ( barrier to exit?)

I read the comments on this thread about the camera - and the negatives are about

1. what the camera DOESNT have
2. Cost
3. Someone for sure will come out with something equally good at half the price.

So same old arguments about this camera as every other new release from anyone.

Yep if I were you I'd wait for someone else to come out with a better camera than this one in due course.

Easy eh?
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Everyone is thinking Sony or Fuji while the company that really maybe the one is Phase. They have the resources they already have the sensor and they own all the rights to Mamiya and Leaf. They have maybe the best shot at this and who knows it already maybe in the works. Here is the kicker in all this and hold the real royal flush is Sony imaging. They control both companies sensors. It would also not be that hard to turn there current new body with some integration of course and make it into a mirror less body. Surely They can pop three lenses out for release too. Not sure but they probably own the patent on the Mamiya 7 glass. Would it be that hard to startup the production on them and update them for digital. Point being no matter how you slice the cheese they are in the best position to make a move on something like this. They can also do a adapter for all there current Phase One lenses just like Hassy. I know one thing for sure they love to go after each other. Lol

Question is what's lurking behind those doors. LOL

They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
i could see this and between Phase One and Leaf I would hope they made a mirrorless camera that was branded as a Leaf since Phase One really doesn't give Leaf their own identity. As they stand now they're stripped down Phase One cameras with better (IMO) color. A mirrorless body would give some unique purpose to keeping the leaf brand alive.
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
Love at first sight! Beautiful design and the 'concept' many have been waiting for. In a years time maybe we have three to four alternatives from the usual suspects and what a great time to be a photographer.

... a mirrorless camera that was branded as a Leaf ...
As a longtime Leaf and Alpa shooter I would love to see a Leaf alternative with detachable grip (flat front for easier adapting to an Alpa Max) and a trigger input for the Copal with tech lenses. Brilliant!
Two 'completely' different systems/purposes in one single, small, light body.
If that happens - I'm game.
 
I read the comments on this thread about the camera - and the negatives are about

1. what the camera DOESNT have
2. Cost
3. Someone for sure will come out with something equally good at half the price.

So same old arguments about this camera as every other new release from anyone.

Yep if I were you I'd wait for someone else to come out with a better camera than this one in due course.

Easy eh?
Well said! Bunch of dreamers here, waiting for another player for the perfect system. Sure in 10 years you'll get a better one with all the features for a fraction of the money. Meanwhile I enjoy X1D from the beginning. Ordered on the very first day of the official announcement.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If I were in the market for a new camera, I would have also ordered this X1D the minute it was announced.

This camera is a known entity, what may come from others is not known. We can speculate … but those photographers with a Hasselblad background probably don't care. They are into leaf-shutter, know Phocus, probably already have HC/HCD lenses (or already used/like them), are familiar with how Hasselblad's philosophy regarding ergonomics and interface fits them, etc. etc.

Based on history, a Sony MFD Mirror-less wouldn't interest me even if less expensive. I do not like Sony's philosophy regarding ergonomics and interface and most added features on current Sony cameras are distractions and detractions (i.e, not something I need, want, and wish weren't there).

I don't know much about Fuji, (other than my XPan experience and that they partnered with Hasselblad on the e-prism for the H camera as well as manufactured the HC/HCD lenses) so that would remain to be seen if they jump in. The wrinkle in this would be whether their partnership with Hasselblad would extend to a mirror-less MFD; where the mirror-less lens designs would be sourced; and where potential sales would come from since MFD is such a small slice of the photo gear pie to start with.

35mm FF sensor 43 and 50 meg cameras satisfy those that don't get MFD with bigger sensors, so that doesn't appear to be a rich source of new buyers. Hasselblad users with existing H stuff or H experience do not seem a likely target for Sony/Fuji. Phase users with a king's ransom in gear aren't MFD bargain hunters, so the low cost to buy a different system/big loss to sell existing system seems an unlikely appeal … (which in my case, with Leica S and six CS lenses, also applies).

I guess we'll see.

IMO, the key here is that with the recent H6, CMOS sensor, new HC/HCD 1/2000 leaf-shutter lenses, and now this X1D Mirror-less marvel, Hasselblad has swiftly returned to its proper place and sphere of influence in the photographic world.:clap:

- Marc
 
You lead me to ask: How often do you find yourself shooting at 11fps? And with what camera?

Seems to me my D750 manual is about a 360 page book with many many notes and warnings about what settings work in what circumstances and how...
It's just an example, I picked the SL because it's yet another mirrorless camera that is advertised as being a DSLR-killer on the level of pro Canon and Nikon bodies in terms of speed, but manages only half their frame rate for moving subjects. I don't use fast-shooting cameras like that myself, but it may lead someone else to believe that it's a viable alternative.
The A7R did things like use lossy Raw compression or drop down to 12-bits in any mode other than single-shot, all without telling you, and many people didn't know about this till later. Sony did eventually issue an update to allow you to shoot uncompressed Raw, but it compromised by doubling file sizes and slowing down the shooting speed. Your D750 would never be found guilty with any of this.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
No doubt the X1D lacks many "features" that are offered by the Sony A7rII and other FF 35mm cameras like the D810 and the 5DSR and the overall image quality with the X1D will be better but not light years ahead. What I do expect the X1D to offer that those cameras do not is a physical design and a user interface that make it a joy to shoot with. I have a Sony A7RII. I love the image quality. Yet, it is not a joy to shoot with. I put up with it. Everyone decides for himself what price to to put on such intangibles.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
It's just an example, I picked the SL because it's yet another mirrorless camera that is advertised as being a DSLR-killer on the level of pro Canon and Nikon bodies in terms of speed, but manages only half their frame rate for moving subjects. I don't use fast-shooting cameras like that myself, but it may lead someone else to believe that it's a viable alternative.
The A7R did things like use lossy Raw compression or drop down to 12-bits in any mode other than single-shot, all without telling you, and many people didn't know about this till later. Sony did eventually issue an update to allow you to shoot uncompressed Raw, but it compromised by doubling file sizes and slowing down the shooting speed. Your D750 would never be found guilty with any of this.
I guess my beef here is that you promulgate a meme that "mirrorless cameras are substandard because the advertising says this and it's not entirely true".

Well, advertising hype is noxious and stupid in all cases, regardless of what's being advertised—it should be ignored and actual data sought. Bombastic promissories like "Nikon/Canon killer" are absurd mechanisms to incite the bloom of fantasy. All cameras have their limitations—yes, even DSLRs. Some cameras work well and pose advantages, others do not.

All cameras do some things which are undocumented and occasionally downright wrong. The only way to figure that out is to study the cameras objectively and dispassionately, determine what they do and don't do, and then evaluate how that affects your photography. First hand experience with a particular camera is the only way I trust to form credible opinions. This is why I've owned so many of them, and tossed so many aside as unusable. Some SLRs are delightful, others are trash. Same goes for mirrorless, or rangefinder. It's not a camera type at fault: it's the specific camera that doesn't suit your desires and expectations whether warranted or not.

I get it: you don't like mirrorless for your personal reasons, whatever they might be, and your rationalizing it to the relationship between truth and advertising. I can't share your blanket condemnation of a camera type because advertising is a puffery intended to ensnare the hopeful with fantasy.

G
 

KeithL

Well-known member
No doubt the X1D lacks many "features" that are offered by the Sony A7rII and other FF 35mm cameras like the D810 and the 5DSR and the overall image quality with the X1D will be better but not light years ahead. What I do expect the X1D to offer that those cameras do not is a physical design and a user interface that make it a joy to shoot with. I have a Sony A7RII. I love the image quality. Yet, it is not a joy to shoot with. I put up with it. Everyone decides for himself what price to to put on such intangibles.
Agreed.

The reason I use Leica M cameras has nothing to do with market leading resolution or dynamic range but everything to do with the sheer joy I get from using them.

Priceless.
 
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