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Diglloyd d800 vs S2 shoot out

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Lets for example consider the number of automobile brands and models that are sold.
Each buyer considers what aspects are appropriate for his needs and purchases accordingly.
Soccer moms do not necessarily seek the cars with the fastest acceleration. Racing enthusiasts rarely buy SUVs.
It is pretty much the same for cameras.
Reviewers pretty much express their own biases, the one cited by the OP is no exception.
À chacun son goût.
-bob
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Marc, you should re-read my message(s) and your abundant absolute pronouncements on the greatness of the S2. I understand your preference, and respect it; what I don't understand is why you feel so defensive when it comes to your precious S2, and why you don't respect neither actual truths (come to that) nor others' opinions, in this and other threads, when it comes to comparing the S2 to other cameras.

Let's see. Is the S2 less fast/has a lesser AF/etc etc than other cameras? It is and it has, whether you need or not the features that the S2 lacks. Does it have a very limited native lens array compared to other cameras, whether you need these lenses or not? It does. Is it way more expensive than any 35 mm camera? It is. Is it a MF camera, which by the way was the point of my reply? No, it isn't, it "slides in between 35 mm and 645" as you said. Does it have a lesser flash system than Nikon or Canon? It does, whether you need it or not. And so on.

That said, if what the S2 offers is good for you, wonderful, I am not and haven't ever been trying to convince you otherwise. Other than that, let other people think what they want without being accused of "repeating things like a mantra" and such, which is exactly the same thing you do, except for the small fact that what I am listing are features and actual facts/truths (again, whether you need these features and stuff or not is a completely different matter, completely personal and out of any discussion), while you talk about "like", which I never mentioned, discussed nor disparaged in any way and which, obviously, I respect completely; what I don't understand is why you think that what you "like" is equivalent to universal, factual truth.

So, you like the S2 over the D800. Wonderful. Does that make it the best camera for everyone? "like some (many, I suspect) others here" I don't think so, no matter how many times you will try to sell your personal preferences as universal truth.

That said, I am off these silly brand wars. Feel free to have the last word on this :D
Vieri,
Wasnt it you who said it would be "a no brainer when one has to choose between the D800 and the S2".
No, it is not a no-brainer, there are good reasons for each of the 2 cameras.
Tom
 

vieri

Well-known member
Vieri,
Wasnt it you who said it would be "a no brainer when one has to choose between the D800 and the S2".
No, it is not a no-brainer, there are good reasons for each of the 2 cameras.
Tom
Tom,

No, it wasn't me, not at least if you quoted me completely rather than extrapolating a phrase out of context. What I said is:

"This, of course, not even putting into the equation price, flexibility, number/range etc of lenses natively available (and not with a crippling adaptor), native flash system, AF, operating speed, performance, accessories, etc etc makes a no-brainer IMHO when having to choose between the D800 and the S2."

Please note the reasons I mention for saying what I say, meaning that if you don't need all that I list above (or if you base your choice on camera aesthetics, camera's feeling when using it, camera's specific IQ and so on, all very respectable reasons in choosing a tool of course) then the recommendation would be nil. More, and especially, please note the IMHO.

It is, in my humble opinion and for the reasons I cited above, a no-brainer choice. That said, everyone's need are different, everyone taste is different, YMMV and so on :D
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Bob, your avatar is amazing: it manages to look either kindly or gently strict depending on the context of the post. Was it taken on a Lytro Mood Camera?

;-)
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Bob, your avatar is amazing: it manages to look either kindly or gently strict depending on the context of the post. Was it taken on a Lytro Mood Camera?

;-)
LOL
No, a tiny crop from a P65+ file but the Lytro folks ought to get on that idea right away.
-bob
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Tom,

No, it wasn't me, not at least if you quoted me completely rather than extrapolating a phrase out of context. What I said is:

"This, of course, not even putting into the equation price, flexibility, number/range etc of lenses natively available (and not with a crippling adaptor), native flash system, AF, operating speed, performance, accessories, etc etc makes a no-brainer IMHO when having to choose between the D800 and the S2."

Please note the reasons I mention for saying what I say, meaning that if you don't need all that I list above (or if you base your choice on camera aesthetics, camera's feeling when using it, camera's specific IQ and so on, all very respectable reasons in choosing a tool of course) then the recommendation would be nil. More, and especially, please note the IMHO.

It is, in my humble opinion and for the reasons I cited above, a no-brainer choice. That said, everyone's need are different, everyone taste is different, YMMV and so on :D
Sorry, misunderstanding - I understood it different.
I shall really stop now. Feels a bit like the film vs digital threads in earlier times.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Sorry, misunderstanding - I understood it different.
I shall really stop now. Feels a bit like the film vs digital threads in earlier times.
As Bob and others have pointed out, a person's perspective on a camera and system is going to be subjective on a multitude of factors, especially as it's primarily based on one's needs and expectations. No different if we"re discussing cars (as Bob mentioned), restaurants, or the style of clothes we wear. Sometimes people's choices are quite evident and understandable and sometimes we feel they are out in "left field". That's the great thing about having choices and the freedom not only to choose but to discuss them in a manner that's conducive to enlightening discussions, such as those that generally takes place here on Getdpi.

With that said...Yea, digital sucks and you're a weeny if you use it! Long live film!!
(Now where's my D800E...LOL!)

Dave (D&A)
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Hey believe me even after 37 years in this business you think I would know to stay in the center of the field. Hell I hit many line drives straight to left field and I even scratch my own head wondering what the hell I just bought. Guess what I'm still alive after it and who cares. LOL
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
It's a little surprising that the Nikon/Zeiss combo actually offers more consistent across-the-frame sharpness considering the size and price of the Leica lens.

Given the praise the Leica S2 and 120/2.5 get, it seems the D800 should be able to match pretty much any 40MP MFD camera in terms of detail.

DH
+1

Exactly my point since ever .....
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I don't know what field curvature that S lens has but there may be circumstances under which it would perform better...
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I don't know what field curvature that S lens has but there may be circumstances under which it would perform better...
Well sure, there are always circumstance where a specific lens (combo) will perform better. Issue is - the D800 (and we did not even start comparing the D800E, which actually should be the one compared) performs very well and very close to S2 level in most cases I have seen.

So I expect actually the D800E be on par with S2 in almost all situations.

And then again if we start coming down to flexibility and price there is a clear winner IMHO!
 

FredBGG

Not Available
The Leica S2 considering it's price has a bad reliability record.

I know 4 people that have these cameras and all 4 have had issues with it.

Nikon and Canon reliability in there pro models is stellar in comparison.

German engineering is way over rated.

My Mercedes is a piece of crap compared to my Honda minivan.

.... and my family is German ....
 

Paratom

Well-known member
It's a little surprising that the Nikon/Zeiss combo actually offers more consistent across-the-frame sharpness considering the size and price of the Leica lens.

Given the praise the Leica S2 and 120/2.5 get, it seems the D800 should be able to match pretty much any 40MP MFD camera in terms of detail.

DH
Personally I wouldnt judge a lens based on 1 test shot of a flat subject in flat light at 1 certain distance and 1 f-stop looking into the corners (by the way using the same f-stop for different sized sensor works in favor of the smaller sensor because it producer a larger DOF)
I believe to understand how good/or not so good a lens works one has to shoot it in various conditions with real world subjects.
I can honestly say the 120mm is a impressivly good lens for me, specially because it has sharpness and "pop" on one side, but still draws portraits and skin gentle and also with a nice bokeh.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The Leica S2 considering it's price has a bad reliability record.

I know 4 people that have these cameras and all 4 have had issues with it.

Nikon and Canon reliability in there pro models is stellar in comparison.

German engineering is way over rated.

My Mercedes is a piece of crap compared to my Honda minivan.

.... and my family is German ....
+1

and I am Austrian, not German.

I would say that German engineering is not bad, but how it is finally brought into products is the issue. And I do agree with Mercedes and BMW examples and BTW I am now driving a French car and finally the first car I have NO issues!

Coming back to cameras and Leica: their design is superb, their QC is sucking. I had several lens issues with my R system and also with my M system, especially when I converted to M8 (all lenses (some 15 or so) had to go back to Solms to be adjusted for the M8 - they called it fine tuned - but this is actually a big nightmare considering the price levels.

And I also know personally of S2 owners who suddenly woke up with broken cameras and/or lenses due to several reason - QC being the main issue!

We should never neglect that Leica is a small company and all their cameras M and S are handmade, as are the according lenses. What else would you expect? They do not have the need to adjust their manufacturing for thousands of copies, which C and N and others have to do. And having shot Canon, Pentax, Nikon and Olympus as well in the past I must say that closest to a perfect manufacturing and final product (mass product) is Nikon.

So back to square 1 - Nikon ALSO wins in this area.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
1) I agree that the reliability of the S2 might not be on the same level as the Nikon pro bodies. However we should keep in mind that this is the first generation of the S-System. Leica could/(probably should) improve their quality control. I had several M-lenses I had to send to service for adjustment.
However so far they managed to fix every problem I ever had. I have never experienced a "lemon" lens form Leica. The 4 S-lenses I own are all spot on.
If I remember my experience with japanese cameras and lenses, I have made such frustrating experiences with Canon and Pentax that I got out of those systems (unconsistant AF, decentered lenses, some lenses only usable when stopped down).
With Nikon I have had the best experience regarding AF and reliability so far. Just one 24-70 which got stuck. No problems with lenses, other than I miss a 50mm lens which is nice wide open.

2) regarding german engineering...well - since I am one of them I have to say it: we dont do wonders, we also make faults, brands like Mercedes sometimes listen too much to the controllers (same controllers who will tell their PR-agencies that the D800 is 99% as good as a MF-camera and therefore they will only get half budget for new camera gear in the future)... but I still believe we build the best cars in the world...
The only alternative I see are italian cars which are nicer designed, with more heart and soul, but then they are not reliable. I would drive a Masserati anyways if I had the money.

If it must be a french car I would choose 2CV - coolest french car ever IMO.
I dont think it is very reliable though.
 
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