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Hasselblad X1D

I have no idea what processor or processing speed the X1D has but its certainly a major factor in keeping costs down. Thats what Pentax opted for in their original 645D, and regardless how good the firmware was developed in that camera, it slowed many functions down considerably. This is in contrast to what Leica used in their early S bodies but then again look at the price differences.

I'm far from being an expert but from what Tim and others have described, it appears to be both limitations with processing speed as well as early firmware development with glitches. How much can be ascribed to the processor vs. The firmware at thisnpoint is anyones guess but hopefully more firmware as that is easier to address.

Dave (D&A)
I own both a Leica 006 and 007. I was really hesitant at buying the 007 since it had the same pixel count. But I read about Leica's improvement in processing, etc. on the Red Dot Forum (http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/) and decided to buy. Boy, what an upgrade. I'm no expert either, but it's safe to say that there is much more to manufacturers and camera systems than just the number of pixels on the sensor.
 

D&A

Well-known member
I own both a Leica 006 and 007. I was really hesitant at buying the 007 since it had the same pixel count. But I read about Leica's improvement in processing, etc. on the Red Dot Forum (» Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)) and decided to buy. Boy, what an upgrade. I'm no expert either, but it's safe to say that there is much more to manufacturers and camera systems than just the number of pixels on the sensor.
Very much agree and those same differences you saw with processing speeds of the S006 vs. S007, can also be said for the differences between the Pentax 645D and 645Z. Both from what I could tell had excellent written firmware (although someone with knowledge of the actual firmware coding could tell of efficiency differences between the two), so I ascribed faster image review, read/write speeds and other camera processing differences mostly to their respective processors.

Its not that the 645z is a speed demon nor the 645D a slug (both excellent cameras), but just that these apeed differences do make a big differences even with alow deliberate ahopting in the field. Studio use differnces even more so to their respective workflows and for concert use, tremensous differences.

Dave (D&A)
 
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CSP

New member
I tried one today.

It felt bigger than I expected though not too big at all but I have to say that i was quite taken aback by how basic it felt. Running beta firmware it had odd quirks such as not showing what ISO it was selecting in Auto until after the shot was taken, and it crashed a lot. It generally felt very hesitant, as if the issue were more to do with the speed of the processor than merely the FW and the FW is, at least in the current iteration, so crude feeling IMHO as to mean that quite a big leap will be needed in quite a short time if it is to justify the hype.

I'm still hopeful that it will all come good but I have to say that a handling session made me feel that it was further off than I thought it would be.
does this comes as a surprise ? but when there are hardware problems too i hope this does not turn into a disaster for them. i also think they posted the manual to lower expectations and to tell that many of the features some are hoping for will not make it in the final version.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
I tried one today.

It felt bigger than I expected though not too big at all but I have to say that i was quite taken aback by how basic it felt. Running beta firmware it had odd quirks such as not showing what ISO it was selecting in Auto until after the shot was taken, and it crashed a lot. It generally felt very hesitant, as if the issue were more to do with the speed of the processor than merely the FW and the FW is, at least in the current iteration, so crude feeling IMHO as to mean that quite a big leap will be needed in quite a short time if it is to justify the hype.

I'm still hopeful that it will all come good but I have to say that a handling session made me feel that it was further off than I thought it would be.
Some of the issues you raise are more problematic than others. Having the ISO shown in the viewfinder when Auto ISO is selected should be a firmware feature that should not be difficult to add. That I can deal with. However, repeated crashes and slow operation are another matter. Those kinds of issues are not acceptable in a shipping product. I will give Hasselblad the benefit of the doubt that the important issues will be fixed before the X1D ships. If it turns out that they were not, I will return the camera.
Hasselblad's decision to do demos over the past four months with cameras that are really not ready for prime time has arguably been a mistake. Fuji followed a very different path with the GFX. No demos...camera under glass. Phase follows the same path. Phase does not announce a camera until it is ready to ship and is fully functional, at least in its basic operability.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
I still think the X1D has the potential to be the most exciting camera to be announced in years.

I really wish I could envisage real advantages in the field and at the print sizes I produce when compared to the full frame cameras (24x36) I currently use. The fact is I can only see disadvantages connected to DOF and adequate shutter speeds at acceptable ISO when hand holding - surely the raison d'être for such a camera? I admit I could well be missing something.

I'm sure others will see potential advantages within their own workflow and make the X1D work for them. I wish I was one of them. I also wish Hasselblad much success.
Actually, I would primarily use the X1D with a tripod for landscape work. My goal is to replace the 30+ pound Phase One/H2 kit I now use with something much lighter but that still offers image quality comparable to my IQ180. My days of hiking with that amount of weight are over. If the X1D works for me in handheld situations, that would be a plus, but I have other cameras to fill that need.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

With modern CMOS DA-conversion is made on the sensor, with several thousand simple but accurate DA-converters working in parallel. With CCD the pixel charges are popped by electronic tricks in several thousand pops to a handful complex DA-converters. So, CCD camera designers have much more difficult job than CMOS camera designers. With CMOS there is not a lot of work to do on readout and that works is mostly made by the sensor developer, CMOSIS for the Leica S (type 007) and Sony for the Pentax 645Z. Not saying CMOS is easy, but that the sensor design solves most of the problems, delivering a clean digital output.

So a great part of that difference simply goes with the CMOS design.

Both the Leica S and the Pentax 645 are DSLRs. They are not intended to have live view as only option. Making a good live view is quite a different effort from and SLR design.

Quite possible Hasselblad has underestimated that. It is often possible to design hardware acceleration of certain features into VLSI/ASIC designs and that may be needed for fluent operation and low power use.

Let's hope that the early customer shipments work well and that the remaining issues can be handled by firmware upgrades.

Best regards
Erik



Very much agree and those aame differences you saw with processing speeds of the S006 vs. S007, can be said for the differences between the Pentax 645D and 645Z. Both from what I could tell had excellent written firmware (although someone with knowledge of the actual firmware coding could tell of efficiency differences between the two), so I ascribed faster image review, read/write speeds and other camera processing differences mostly to their respective processors.

Its not that the 645z is a speed demon nor the 645D a slug (both excellent cameras), but just that these apeed differences do make a big differences even with alow deliberate ahopting in the field. Studio use differnces even more so to their respective workflows and for concert use, tremensous differences.

Dave (D&A)
 

D&A

Well-known member
I was aware of readout differences between CCD and CMOS but nowheres near the extent of your explanantion. Thank you. I guess its hard to seperate operational speed of two similar cameras, one CCD based and the other CMOS, simply on sensor readout speed/differences vs the contribution of the processor without knowing their respective specs.

I presume many of the cameras functions after the shot is written to the memory card but still accessed by the camera, has little to do with the processes of the sesnor its associated electronics.

Dave (D&A)
 
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KeithL

Well-known member
Actually, I would primarily use the X1D with a tripod for landscape work. My goal is to replace the 30+ pound Phase One/H2 kit I now use with something much lighter but that still offers image quality comparable to my IQ180. My days of hiking with that amount of weight are over. If the X1D works for me in handheld situations, that would be a plus, but I have other cameras to fill that need.
That makes perfect sense.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I should add, some years ago, when the majority of my work was off a tripod, I would have been all over this camera. Increasingly my work is hand held and given the concerns I expressed in an earlier post I'm no longer prepared to lug around two systems.
 

conger

New member
Re: Hasselblad X1D -- SNIKTITT

Thanks Erik... this is indeed a 'SNIKTITT'(!).

Sadly, it does not offer (as you pointed out) much more than a challenge to my Norwegian.

The three scene pictures seem to come from a hotel... I surmise in Asia (but with central heating!)... one wonders!...

I get the impression that Hass have severe difficulties in finalising a (QA) certified release of the embedded firmware (30+ years experience of exactly that... time to retire... or join Hass!).

I guess we will have to wait until they get it right.

-g-
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Luminous Landscape has posted a hands on video on the X1D with the Hasselblad Product Manager, Ove Bengtsson. He does mention that the initial firmware for the camera shipping at the end of November will include 63 custom, moveable focus points and GPS. He was not asked about a cable release.
 
Luminous Landscape has posted a hands on video on the X1D with the Hasselblad Product Manager, Ove Bengtsson. He does mention that the initial firmware for the camera shipping at the end of November will include 63 custom, moveable focus points and GPS. He was not asked about a cable release.
That's good news :)
 

hcubell

Well-known member
...Also, at one point he used the term "professional camera(s)" to describe the H6D line in contrast to the X1D. Does he not consider the X1D to be a professional camera? Interesting distinction, but I'm probably reading more into a casual comment than was intended. I have wondered how Hasselblad will differentiate in their marketing how an H6D-50c contrasts with an X1D-50c...
[/U].
Joe, I think it's a marketing issue for Hasselblad on a couple of levels. Obviously, any really good photographer can take "professional" quality images with an X1D; it's the same sensor that Hasselblad and Phase One have been sticking into their high end systems for the past 3 years or so and telling us that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. The price point for the X1D and its lenses is significantly lower than the H6 cameras, so Hasselblad is likely ambivalent about how to position the X1D. However, if the X1D is a "professional" camera system, what is the H6 series? Also, Hasselblad wants the market for the X1D to be broader than for true, working "professionals" whose primary source of income is as a photographer. They want to sell it to that much larger category of photographers known as "semi-professionals", "enthusiasts", "prosumers", or "rich dentists". Nobody really likes any of those terms, but we know Phase One has very successfully tapped into it. (It would be very interesting to know what percentage of Phase sales is into that market.) The X1D has even more potential for that market because it is VERY light and portable compared to a Phase One XF system with Blue Ring lenses.
 

CSP

New member
Joe, I think it's a marketing issue for Hasselblad on a couple of levels. Obviously, any really good photographer can take "professional" quality images with an X1D; it's the same sensor that Hasselblad and Phase One have been sticking into their high end systems for the past 3 years or so and telling us that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. The price point for the X1D and its lenses is significantly lower than the H6 cameras, so Hasselblad is likely ambivalent about how to position the X1D. However, if the X1D is a "professional" camera system, what is the H6 series? Also, Hasselblad wants the market for the X1D to be broader than for true, working "professionals" whose primary source of income is as a photographer. They want to sell it to that much larger category of photographers known as "semi-professionals", "enthusiasts", "prosumers", or "rich dentists". Nobody really likes any of those terms, but we know Phase One has very successfully tapped into it. (It would be very interesting to know what percentage of Phase sales is into that market.) The X1D has even more potential for that market because it is VERY light and portable compared to a Phase One XF system with Blue Ring lenses.
every camera a professional uses is a professional camera but
hasselblad does not need to worry that they will sell too much of the x1d to real professionals anyway, the fuji is far more appealing for this party
 

hcubell

Well-known member
every camera a professional uses is a professional camera but
hasselblad does not need to worry that they will sell too much of the x1d to real professionals anyway, the fuji is far more appealing for this party
You completely misunderstood my points. Not surprising, since you have an axe to grind here. As for whether a "real professional" would find the Fuji GFX "far more appealing" than the X1D, that's ridiculous. Like so many others with an axe to grind, you think your needs are everyone else's needs. Perhaps you don't know that many professionals need leaf shutter lenses. The X1D has them now; the Fuji does not. Fuji says they are working on a leaf shutter solution? If you show me a "professional" who buys into a camera system in reliance upon that kind of statement, I will show you a fool.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

My take is that the X1D is built around and optimised for the 33x44 mm sensor. It will probably give the 50 MP H6D a run for it's money. It will not be able touch the 100 MP full frame sensor.

I would think it will be a very fine system, and we now that there will be something like eight new lenses soon.

It is the first EVF system in MFD, and it will have some rough edges.

Comparing with the Fuji GFX is natural, but also a bit premature. Clearly, if you need a leaf shutter the X1D is the way to go.

The good news is that MFD is live and kicking.

Best regards
Erik

Joe, I think it's a marketing issue for Hasselblad on a couple of levels. Obviously, any really good photographer can take "professional" quality images with an X1D; it's the same sensor that Hasselblad and Phase One have been sticking into their high end systems for the past 3 years or so and telling us that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. The price point for the X1D and its lenses is significantly lower than the H6 cameras, so Hasselblad is likely ambivalent about how to position the X1D. However, if the X1D is a "professional" camera system, what is the H6 series? Also, Hasselblad wants the market for the X1D to be broader than for true, working "professionals" whose primary source of income is as a photographer. They want to sell it to that much larger category of photographers known as "semi-professionals", "enthusiasts", "prosumers", or "rich dentists". Nobody really likes any of those terms, but we know Phase One has very successfully tapped into it. (It would be very interesting to know what percentage of Phase sales is into that market.) The X1D has even more potential for that market because it is VERY light and portable compared to a Phase One XF system with Blue Ring lenses.
 

CSP

New member
You completely misunderstood my points. Not surprising, since you have an axe to grind here. As for whether a "real professional" would find the Fuji GFX "far more appealing" than the X1D, that's ridiculous. Like so many others with an axe to grind, you think your needs are everyone else's needs. Perhaps you don't know that many professionals need leaf shutter lenses. The X1D has them now; the Fuji does not. Fuji says they are working on a leaf shutter solution? If you show me a "professional" who buys into a camera system in reliance upon that kind of statement, I will show you a fool.
do you have first hand experience shooting advertising, food, people, corporate... work or with how many of this kind of photographers have you talked about the x1d vs gfx ? i just wonder where your expertise comes from because there is a great difference between what amateurs think professionals need and the reality, internet forums can give a very distorted impression what is really important when you work in this fields. i have not spoken to one colleague who does not think a moveable viewfinder and lcd is favorable to a fancy design and when leaf shutter lenses are the only way to go i don´t understand why so much great outdoor fashion work was shot with canon or nikon....
 

hcubell

Well-known member
do you have first hand experience shooting advertising, food, people, corporate... work or with how many of this kind of photographers have you talked about the x1d vs gfx ? i just wonder where your expertise comes from because there is a great difference between what amateurs think professionals need and the reality, internet forums can give a very distorted impression what is really important when you work in this fields. i have not spoken to one colleague who does not think a moveable viewfinder and lcd is favorable to a fancy design and when leaf shutter lenses are the only way to go i don´t understand why so much great outdoor fashion work was shot with canon or nikon....
So, your take is that leaf shutter lenses are not all that important to real professionals who shoot advertising, food, people and corporate, and what's really critical are articulating viewfinders and LCDs? Hmmm. Who are all these so-called "professionals" that Hasselblad and Phase have been selling to?
It would be interesting to see your website as an illustration of the kind of professional work you do, and why you need articulating viewfinders and LCDs. I didn't see any such information on your GetDpi Personal Page. All I saw was the following statement: "CSP has not made any friends yet."
 
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