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Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive
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- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
There not kicking themselves at all just sticking to there plan. Things take time to make and they simply upgraded the DF on known issues and make it more reliable. What many don't realize is this DF+ is maybe more improvements than a underwhelming press release. They just downplayed this as its not there main thrust. They are going to be around a long time and maybe the last dog standing. They had huge success on the IQ last year, we can't assume that every year they have to top the year before. The body is really not the most important part of the image chain. You make the most important parts great one year than work on the rest. That's what they are doing.
I want to believe what Hasselblad says in their defensive news release, but this is simply not a young person's camera as they claim. I hope they take this reaction from their base when they embark on their next release. The synergism between Hasselblad and Sony has potential, but I want to see both companies elevated and not one company pulled down.
Stefan Steib
Active member
Some infos about the Hasselblad news.
It is said that Shriro has gotten back investments on Hasselblad stock, at least partly. If one thinks about it there may be some business transactions be shortly before happening or they have even happened.
After speaking on the "DIGIT!" booth of where we were shooting a series of protraits of PK visitors nearly all photographers of all ages I asked maybe about 20 of them most under 30 if they would be willing to be seen with such a Lunar body hanging around their neck. Every single one shrugged and some made comments like I´d preferre to throw it in the Rhine, or "not even for money".
Obviously I got a special kind of "Young new users/buyers", but there were none, not a single one who would even go out into the street with it even when it´s dark......... !
I will spare the even more sarcastic comments as I might get in trouble with the moderators here if I rewrite what was said....
Regards
Stefan
It is said that Shriro has gotten back investments on Hasselblad stock, at least partly. If one thinks about it there may be some business transactions be shortly before happening or they have even happened.
After speaking on the "DIGIT!" booth of where we were shooting a series of protraits of PK visitors nearly all photographers of all ages I asked maybe about 20 of them most under 30 if they would be willing to be seen with such a Lunar body hanging around their neck. Every single one shrugged and some made comments like I´d preferre to throw it in the Rhine, or "not even for money".
Obviously I got a special kind of "Young new users/buyers", but there were none, not a single one who would even go out into the street with it even when it´s dark......... !
I will spare the even more sarcastic comments as I might get in trouble with the moderators here if I rewrite what was said....
Regards
Stefan
Quentin_Bargate
Well-known member
Why? what on earth has the Lunar got to do with Hasselblad's medium format line which has now been further upgraded to the H5D (not a huge upgrade but its keeping pace or ahead of Phase)? The Lunar makes aboslutely no difference to the medium format camera line - except possibly as a source of additional income for its further development
A lot of absolute tosh has been written about the Lunar. It's not the camera of my dreams but its an untested product at this moment in time. Lets wait and see what it's like when it is completed.
jonoslack
Active member
HI Q
I think it is thoroughly tested - you can read the NEX7 review at dPreview (and a splendid camera it is too). Unless of course the 6 Hassleblad technicians mentioned rewrite the firmware and spoil it!
But every 'special edition' camera is met with this kind of vitriol, but you have to admit that this one does looks pretty vulgar, and the big fat body rather destroys the point of the NEX7 as well. But like all the Leica special editions, I can imagine these selling pretty well (although possibly not to the members of GetDPI . . . . . and the price suggests a hefty profit margin.
On the other hand, I can imagine a pretty good prospect of a collaboration with Sony, who produce fantastic sensors, and seem to be particularly imaginative right now (RX100 RX1, A99, NEX6 all look like fantastic and innovative cameras). Maybe the next collaboration will be more about function than form.
Good for you Quentin. For years I have been a stalwart supporter of Hasselblad even naively expecting a positive release on September 18th. (And after waiting nine long months for my H4D60.) However, what we got was far worse than anything I could have imagined. First, we find it was APSC, not even full frame, then we hear it was priced at five times the cost the NEX7 whose parts are planned for the new camera. How many pieces and parts can be added on to justify five times the price. The responses to the camera have been the worst I have ever seen for any camera release. Most Hassy users are canceling plans to upgrade/purchase/expand. My reason is that the future of Hasselblad is of great concern given the circumstances above. Most people expect and require the support of the company who supplied the equipment in the first place. That assurance today is far less likely than it was prior tho September 18th. I wish I could be as positive about a company that you are of Hasselblad, but my eyes were opened on the 18th, and what I saw was not a pretty sight.
Hang in there Quentin. If only you could be right, and even now, oh that you could be.
Greg
Hang in there Quentin. If only you could be right, and even now, oh that you could be.
Greg
What........ Hasselblad released an H5D?
My point being the whole Looney release has rather over shadowed anything else I know of released at PK this year. If Phase's new camera had been ready then, regardless of how great the H5D is, all the talk would have been about how looney HB are and how great Phase's new camera is.
Phase weren't ready and missed a great Sales/PR opportunity that all.
I'm not sure that Hasselblad will have a medium format line in the future. Listen to this interview with Luca Alessandrini.
CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube (starts at 2:55)
He think it was wrong to focus on the pro market "..during the past 10 years we somehow went away from our typical brand tradition of Hasselblad." and want to focus more on using expensive materials to create wearable fashion items.
CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube (starts at 2:55)
He think it was wrong to focus on the pro market "..during the past 10 years we somehow went away from our typical brand tradition of Hasselblad." and want to focus more on using expensive materials to create wearable fashion items.
Stuart Richardson
Active member
Wow, that was quite interesting to watch!
A few things that strike me:
1. Mr. Alessandrini seems much more personable on video than his statements sound in print.
2. Some of what he says resonates with me -- for example about going back and focusing on core values, making the camera accessible to the rest of the market (other than only pros...let's face it, 15,000+ for a single body and lens is quite a barrier!) and getting back to the basic design and quality principles of the older film cameras.
3. Despite the previous, I am still at a complete loss at how they arrived at the Lunar based on those statements. They seem to self-contradictory: you don't increase accessibility by taking a consumer product, dressing it up in tinsel and jacking up the price 5 times (albeit, still much less than the cost of the MFDB, but crucially, a much worse VALUE). And the design language of Victor Hasselblad was far, far more utilitarian and practical (I mean it in a good way) than these gaudy little monsters.
4. Did he really spend 10 minutes talking about the camera and not spend a single instant talking about how it worked as a camera? Was it really all about luxury clothing, how you can get matching accessories and so on?
It's all just so disheartening....seeing a brand that was started by someone who was focused on quality, not fashion-- he let the lenses and engineering requirements dictate the camera, even to the shape of the negative. Now it is the absolute opposite -- they find a camera and sensor that are good enough and spend all their time thinking about the thing to enclose it. Talk about missing the point! Form follows function, for ****'s sake, or at least it does in well-designed and made objects. And the only things that stay in fashion are those that are extremely well designed for their function, whether that is simple or complex. An umbrella, a Leica M, a Porsche 911. One may modify, modernize, improve the materials, but don't change for the sake of fashion, change for the sake of improving the function. These products have lasted so long and staying in fashion because they were very well designed to do what they do, not because they were designed to be in fashion. To take someone else's camera and pop a fancy casing around it....it's just so off the mark!
A few things that strike me:
1. Mr. Alessandrini seems much more personable on video than his statements sound in print.
2. Some of what he says resonates with me -- for example about going back and focusing on core values, making the camera accessible to the rest of the market (other than only pros...let's face it, 15,000+ for a single body and lens is quite a barrier!) and getting back to the basic design and quality principles of the older film cameras.
3. Despite the previous, I am still at a complete loss at how they arrived at the Lunar based on those statements. They seem to self-contradictory: you don't increase accessibility by taking a consumer product, dressing it up in tinsel and jacking up the price 5 times (albeit, still much less than the cost of the MFDB, but crucially, a much worse VALUE). And the design language of Victor Hasselblad was far, far more utilitarian and practical (I mean it in a good way) than these gaudy little monsters.
4. Did he really spend 10 minutes talking about the camera and not spend a single instant talking about how it worked as a camera? Was it really all about luxury clothing, how you can get matching accessories and so on?
It's all just so disheartening....seeing a brand that was started by someone who was focused on quality, not fashion-- he let the lenses and engineering requirements dictate the camera, even to the shape of the negative. Now it is the absolute opposite -- they find a camera and sensor that are good enough and spend all their time thinking about the thing to enclose it. Talk about missing the point! Form follows function, for ****'s sake, or at least it does in well-designed and made objects. And the only things that stay in fashion are those that are extremely well designed for their function, whether that is simple or complex. An umbrella, a Leica M, a Porsche 911. One may modify, modernize, improve the materials, but don't change for the sake of fashion, change for the sake of improving the function. These products have lasted so long and staying in fashion because they were very well designed to do what they do, not because they were designed to be in fashion. To take someone else's camera and pop a fancy casing around it....it's just so off the mark!
Yeah, but I don't see Samsung taking the iPhone 5 and labeling it SAMSUNG and charging 'x' thousands dollars for it
Oh and if they did, I think the consumers would have murderous intent
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Leica special editions are just that; Special Editions, and they are made in limited quantities making them sought after by collectors. They are also Leica cameras, which is a value in itself.
The Lunar comes in what seems to an unlimited number of "looks", and there's nothing "limited" about it by any definition of the word. Also, it's not a Hasselblad camera, it's a Sony camera with a Hasselblad housing.
If it was $2,000 or thereabouts, I believe Hasselblad would probably sell a healthy number of these. There are enough ignorant people with bad taste and a well filled wallet who would fall for the vulgar styling. But at $6,000+, it makes no sense. That is well inside Leica territory, and photographers and non-photographers alike will most probably prefer the famous red dot and the form-follows-function design of a well proven product.
wentbackward
Member
- massive fail by hasselblad
- what did we think (and still say) when Leica release a new Panasonic with a different menu
- at least Leica brought good glass and pana brought good electronics and there was no b/s, I still don't get why people buy the Leica one.
- did Leica announce a new p&s at photokina? Not sure but it certainly doesn't affect my opinion of Leica anymore. I recall I thought they were going to the toilet when they first did it.
Theres some sense to the madness but I think the jury is out on hasselblad, are they a camera co or a brand being raped by an investment co?
- what did we think (and still say) when Leica release a new Panasonic with a different menu
- at least Leica brought good glass and pana brought good electronics and there was no b/s, I still don't get why people buy the Leica one.
- did Leica announce a new p&s at photokina? Not sure but it certainly doesn't affect my opinion of Leica anymore. I recall I thought they were going to the toilet when they first did it.
Theres some sense to the madness but I think the jury is out on hasselblad, are they a camera co or a brand being raped by an investment co?
Stefan Steib
Active member
I also watched this interview and it was interesting:
1.to see the Guy Alessandrini in Person. Some things come to my mind:
He remembered me a lot to some of the Art Directors I had the (non)pleasure to work with in my former career as a studio Photographer.
Blowing out an enormous bubble of words with nearly no meanings on a simple question - shall we move the item to the right or to the left......
I´m sure you also know these.....
2.Core essentials of Hasselblad: There never was a wooden grip or a toppling of deco stuff on any "Production" Hasselblad. They produced only some Anniversary bodies for collectors. Definitely not the core of the brand
3.The Cameras they built for "the other" users - ever - were the same as the ones they built for the pro Users. infact the"other" users bought them because also the Pro´s were using them thus proofing these were good cameras.
There is even more but this is the "Core" of why this bubble is causing so much misunderstandings - on the side of Hasselblad !
Total loss of orientation about what and who they are and what they could be - a change is necessary- I full agree - but not like this.
Regards
Stefan
1.to see the Guy Alessandrini in Person. Some things come to my mind:
He remembered me a lot to some of the Art Directors I had the (non)pleasure to work with in my former career as a studio Photographer.
Blowing out an enormous bubble of words with nearly no meanings on a simple question - shall we move the item to the right or to the left......
I´m sure you also know these.....
2.Core essentials of Hasselblad: There never was a wooden grip or a toppling of deco stuff on any "Production" Hasselblad. They produced only some Anniversary bodies for collectors. Definitely not the core of the brand
3.The Cameras they built for "the other" users - ever - were the same as the ones they built for the pro Users. infact the"other" users bought them because also the Pro´s were using them thus proofing these were good cameras.
There is even more but this is the "Core" of why this bubble is causing so much misunderstandings - on the side of Hasselblad !
Total loss of orientation about what and who they are and what they could be - a change is necessary- I full agree - but not like this.
Regards
Stefan
Quentin_Bargate
Well-known member
Hi Jono
Sorry, it is an untested product. I own a NEX-7 - good camera (although I have used it far less since I got the Sigma DP2M - now *that* is a good camera!), but the Lunar may or may not be significantly better / different / worse. We simply don't know. I don't much like the look of the Lunar at all, but given Hassleblad seem genuinely enthusiastic about it and they are reasonably sensible people, I am prepared to wait for a verdict after it has become available. More importantly, the main prodict line in medium format cameras is still going strong.
CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube
This video is VERY revealing. Paul Grange of Camera Diner who supports this Hasselblad project, presents such flawed logic in defense of it, that it boggles the mind. He blames the "media" for the backlash, trots out a few cheery-picked supportive comments by consumers to back up his own poor judgement, sucks up to Hasselblad, and never asks the hard questions that most anyone would have ... like the freaking price for one thing.
He's clearly going for hits on his site and isn't above prostituting himself to do it. Hope he goes down with the good ship Hasselblad.
The statement by Luca that he is "not very good at taking pictures, so instead likes to collect old cameras" is also revealing. So, by his own admission, he is nothing more than a collector, a fondler, a poser at heart. A collector who places form over function because he doesn't get what "function" actually means for any passionate photographer, novice, advanced enthusiasts, or pro.
A Hasselblad camera for everyman @ such a price-point is a non-sequitur. It is to exploit the tasteless newly rich that, like Luca, are amateur photographers in the worse sense of the word. Not the enthusiasts that made up Hasselblad's core non-professional buyer of past.
Here's somethings to consider about this whole project that to date haven't been addressed.
The NEX 7 is already aging by digital standards, it'll have a white beard by the time this camera gets out the door. Sony is already discounting the 5N, so it is likely that the 7 will follow. These guys don't get that those who buy this sort of stuff, are very conscience of the tech status aspect of gadgets ... who the hell would want a $2,000 iPhone 4 in a gold case now?
If the A99 is the base of their next project, how much will that cost? The NEX7 formula suggests at least 3X the price, so $8,500? Even 2X is almost $6,000. Really?
Who is going to service this toad? Sony? Hasselblad? Sony's service is less than stellar (trust me, I use Sony stuff), and anything involving any digital repair on a Hasselbld requires shipping it back to Sweden for an extended vacation from your gear bag. But hell, maybe the people who buy this camera won't even care if it works or not.
-Marc
(If you haven't guessed, I'm PISSED OFF!)
This video is VERY revealing. Paul Grange of Camera Diner who supports this Hasselblad project, presents such flawed logic in defense of it, that it boggles the mind. He blames the "media" for the backlash, trots out a few cheery-picked supportive comments by consumers to back up his own poor judgement, sucks up to Hasselblad, and never asks the hard questions that most anyone would have ... like the freaking price for one thing.
He's clearly going for hits on his site and isn't above prostituting himself to do it. Hope he goes down with the good ship Hasselblad.
The statement by Luca that he is "not very good at taking pictures, so instead likes to collect old cameras" is also revealing. So, by his own admission, he is nothing more than a collector, a fondler, a poser at heart. A collector who places form over function because he doesn't get what "function" actually means for any passionate photographer, novice, advanced enthusiasts, or pro.
A Hasselblad camera for everyman @ such a price-point is a non-sequitur. It is to exploit the tasteless newly rich that, like Luca, are amateur photographers in the worse sense of the word. Not the enthusiasts that made up Hasselblad's core non-professional buyer of past.
Here's somethings to consider about this whole project that to date haven't been addressed.
The NEX 7 is already aging by digital standards, it'll have a white beard by the time this camera gets out the door. Sony is already discounting the 5N, so it is likely that the 7 will follow. These guys don't get that those who buy this sort of stuff, are very conscience of the tech status aspect of gadgets ... who the hell would want a $2,000 iPhone 4 in a gold case now?
If the A99 is the base of their next project, how much will that cost? The NEX7 formula suggests at least 3X the price, so $8,500? Even 2X is almost $6,000. Really?
Who is going to service this toad? Sony? Hasselblad? Sony's service is less than stellar (trust me, I use Sony stuff), and anything involving any digital repair on a Hasselbld requires shipping it back to Sweden for an extended vacation from your gear bag. But hell, maybe the people who buy this camera won't even care if it works or not.
-Marc
(If you haven't guessed, I'm PISSED OFF!)
W