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Thread: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

  1. #51
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Oh, except that the E-P2 would be replaced by the weathersealed body, of course !

  2. #52
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonSmith View Post
    I want a micro L1.

    And a 14mm prime.

    And to be 6'3".


    I'll settle for two out of three.
    LOL. To match my weight, I should be around 9'6", so I think a m4/3 camera sized like the LX3 with a sensor equal or better than the GH1 and built-in EVF is more realistic I'd even waive the whole video schnickschnack.

    Stefan

  3. #53
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Aside from all speculations, I'm glad to say that I just placed my first 43 order: a brand new E-P1 + 17/f2.8 + viewfinder for an incredibly good price (about the same as a good price on an LX3). That should settle the body for a while, except if the weather sealed E-P2 comes out at 500

    If I like the camera as much as I hope, a 20/f1.7 and 9-18 are possible future purchases. And back to topic: I'd really like a fast portrait prime, too. I read the comparison of OM lenses on the E-P1 and my 50/f1.4 and f1.8 would "ghost" wide open. Also C-mount lenses are frequently not optimal. A native lens is always the best option, if it exists.


    Peter.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    I disagree. The Panasonic LX3 is not a crappy camera, yet, I had to use a little stick to change the diaphragm in A mode. The fact that DOF wide open is already very deep is a bad excuse for a bad interface. At my first attempt to use an E-P1, I also thought the thumb wheel and the wheel around the 4-way controller were not the best, but I'll refrain from calling both the E-P1 as well as its controls crappy until I used it more.
    ...
    Generally speaking, you're right. If you look at smaller cameras, you're not.
    I wasn't going to skip the E-420 and get an E-3 just because the controls are in a better place: the E-3 nearly weighs as much as any OM body with the 90/f2.0 macro lens, which I consider to be a lot to lug around. Size is no excuse: all OM bodies are smaller than the E-420, yet, their controls are much better. User interface design just isn't the primary focus of camera vendors anymore: featuritis is, because "it sells" when you're able to brag about 3D sweep panoramas, but not when your camera is just easy to use for its purpose.
    LOL! I'm exercising my right to hyperbole, and my lack of restraint. ;-)

    To me a crappy camera is a camera I can't be bothered to work with, regardless of how good a photograph it can make. There are tons of crappy cameras that make excellent photographs, I've owned several of them. EG:

    Contax G2 :: Remarkable lenses, superb build, wonderful meter and it just about drove me crazy the way the controls worked in operation. Crappy camera.

    Olympus C8080WZ :: Amazing lens and JPEG engine, awful viewfinder, miserable slow raw write time, absolutely unusable controls. Crappy camera.

    Panasonic LX1 :: Great lens, good features, made a lot of excellent photographs, but hard to hold, fiddly controls, annoyed me with poor sensitivity. Crappy camera.

    I could go on, but you probably get my drift. Even the LC1/L1, as delightful as the overall design is, have quirks that annoy me occasionally but they're not so annoying as to make me eager to sell them and move on.

    (I had Olympus OM1 and OM2n cameras: liked them overall but didn't like their ergonomics much: they didn't fit my hands well and the viewfinders had insufficient eye relief. But they didn't annoy me enough to qualify as "crappy", I was sad to sell them but the Nikon FM and FE2 did better for me ... ;-)

    It's a personal judgement call as to what qualifies as a "crappy camera". Whether it's control ergonomics, size, overall responsiveness, etc ... there can be all kinds of reasons. Buy it, try it, move on if it's crappy, work with it if it's not. Period.

    BTW, I see you've gotten a Pen digital and were talking about portrait lenses. At present, the top of the class on that is the Macro-Elmarit-DG 45mm f/2.8 ASPH OIS. While there might be a faster lens that works well, I doubt anything's going to surpass it by much in overall practical usability or quality. (I do like using both the Olympus macros and the Konica 40 on the G1, each lens has its unique character.) It's not cheap but it's well worth it, I plan to get one eventually too.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! I'm exercising my right to hyperbole, and my lack of restraint. ;-)
    Godfrey . . . you . . . hyperbole? surely not

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    To me a crappy camera is a camera I can't be bothered to work with, regardless of how good a photograph it can make. There are tons of crappy cameras that make excellent photographs, I've owned several of them.

    ...........

    It's a personal judgement call as to what qualifies as a "crappy camera". Whether it's control ergonomics, size, overall responsiveness, etc ... there can be all kinds of reasons. Buy it, try it, move on if it's crappy, work with it if it's not. Period.
    I think that the problem here is that crappy really implies objectivity (which offends the people who's cameras you refer to as crappy), whereas (although I actually agree with you about most of those cameras), these are subjective calls.

    Interestingly, apart from 'it doesn't suit me' there doesn't seem to be a very good subjective expletive . . . perhaps you should invent one Godfrey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    BTW, I see you've gotten a Pen digital and were talking about portrait lenses. At present, the top of the class on that is the Macro-Elmarit-DG 45mm f/2.8 ASPH OIS. While there might be a faster lens that works well, I doubt anything's going to surpass it by much in overall practical usability or quality.
    Can't quibble with that - fantastic lens, one of my very favorites - sharp but not brutal, and with a lovely gentle bokeh - fab.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  6. #56
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Godfrey . . . you . . . hyperbole? surely not
    I do occasionally speak with a certain amount of passion. ]'-)


    I think that the problem here is that crappy really implies objectivity (which offends the people who's cameras you refer to as crappy), whereas (although I actually agree with you about most of those cameras), these are subjective calls.
    I don't know how the word "crappy" has any specific implication of objectivity associated with it. The dictionary defines it as:

    crappy - adjective ( -pier , -piest ) ::vulgar slang
    1 of extremely poor quality : crappy wine.
    2 disgusting or unpleasant; worthless : Phil's room is the crappiest.
    3 ill; in poor physical condition : I feel really crappy today.
    That's all subjective, there are no metrics involved.

    I think the reason that calling a camera crappy (or "bad") offends people occasionally is precisely because all these kinds of words are so subjective. People are not objective about how they feel about their belongings, with rare exception. I'm objective about cameras when it comes to performance, metrics, etc. I'm not when it comes to 'what I like'... but at the same time, when someone else doesn't like what I like, it really is neither here nor there.. ;-). I try to be honest and direct rather than undermining my meanings with PC dumb-down-speak.

    Interestingly, apart from 'it doesn't suit me' there doesn't seem to be a very good subjective expletive . . . perhaps you should invent one Godfrey?
    "Yuck!" seems to do well by me, as does "crappy".

    re: ME45 lens ::: Can't quibble with that - fantastic lens, one of my very favorites - sharp but not brutal, and with a lovely gentle bokeh - fab.
    It is a delightful lens. My buddy has loaned his to me on several occasions, I've made over a thousand photos with it and they're all amazingly good quality, even if many of them are crappy pictures ... ;-)

    I bought the ZD 50/2 Macro first specifically and importantly because I needed a top-notch macro lens in this focal length range for my DSLR bodies also and I could only afford one lens at that moment, but I'll add the ME45 to my kit as soon as the work I'm doing justifies the expense.

  7. #57
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Hi Godfrey,

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! I'm exercising my right to hyperbole, and my lack of restraint. ;-)
    And I'm exercising my right to not relativate ! Hah !

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    To me a crappy camera is a camera I can't be bothered to work with, regardless of how good a photograph it can make.
    Oh, I know exactly what you mean. The mind shouted yes to DSLRs and the E-420 that was in my hands, but the whole rest of my being shouted no. I still miss that 11-22 a bit sometimes. Anybody care to donate a 9-18 in 43 mount to help a poor soul ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    (I had Olympus OM1 and OM2n cameras: liked them overall but didn't like their ergonomics much: they didn't fit my hands well and the viewfinders had insufficient eye relief. But they didn't annoy me enough to qualify as "crappy", I was sad to sell them but the Nikon FM and FE2 did better for me ... ;-)
    I used an OM-1 for a few years until the light meter broke right when I was starting a photography course. Nice camera. I handled it a few times afterwards, too. But nothing compared to the OM-3 or OM-4Ti I got afterwards, particularly when fit with the 2-13 ultra bright focusing screen. Those cameras' user interfaces are just so unbelievably good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    BTW, I see you've gotten a Pen digital and were talking about portrait lenses. At present, the top of the class on that is the Macro-Elmarit-DG 45mm f/2.8 ASPH OIS. While there might be a faster lens that works well, I doubt anything's going to surpass it by much in overall practical usability or quality.
    I see that it's less than 1cm smaller both in diameter as well as in length compared to my beloved OM 90/f2.0 macro, but the weight is exactly half. The 90/f2.0 is brilliant as a portrait lens, though, because it is so bright. Of course, watching the image it projects on the 2-13 screen is half the enjoyment. I wonder what it'll be like to try out lenses on an LCD... The problem with the "dump it if crappy" mentality is that it will lead me to an X1 that I cannot afford, or to a GXR+A12 that I can't afford and that has that weird "lensor" way of working. I don't find any camera on the market that makes me go *wow* and that does not combine this with severe limitations: the X1 has a fixed lens, the NEX UI seems to be very so-so, the M9 is big and costs more than a new kitchen, the S2 with lenses costs nearly as much as our house's new extension, the 43 have a lack of fast primes and so on. I still want to make photos, so I'm trying out different compromises while curmudgeoning my way through the market.

    Anyway, good discussion.


    Peter.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I try to be honest and direct rather than undermining my meanings with PC dumb-down-speak.
    Isn't that just another definition of hyperbole?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    the M9 is big and costs more than a new kitchen,
    Hi Peter
    It might cost more than a new kitchen where you live . . .

    But it isn't big . . . you know . . . it's the smallest full frame camera in the world!

    Just this guy you know

  10. #60
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    ... But nothing compared to the OM-3 or OM-4Ti I got afterwards, particularly when fit with the 2-13 ultra bright focusing screen. Those cameras' user interfaces are just so unbelievably good. ...
    I always thought the OM-4ti and later OM-3Ti were lovely bodies, but by that time I was completely happy with my Nikon FM2-FE2-F3/T generation cameras and lenses and saw no sensible reason to bother with any other SLRs. Once the equipment works well enough, I'm simply not fussy enough to keep changing equipment on the hope that some small thing will provide anything much better. I find that my best work comes from long familiarity with both the excellent aspects of my equipment and learning how to ignore the warts ... and all equipment has some warts.

    ... The 90/f2.0 is brilliant as a portrait lens, though, because it is so bright. ...
    The aesthetic experience of a top of the line SLR viewfinder is unmatched by any electronic display so far, but I don't rate viewfinders so much for their aesthetic experience as I do by how well they allow me to focus and frame, and control the camera. There the EVF on the G1 and E-P2 excel, imo.

    The 90/2 is a great portrait lens on 24x36 format both for reason of its focal length and speed as well as what that combination of focal length and speed means with regard to scene dynamics in DoF, the amount of blur it produces in background magnification, and perspective. While a 45mm lens on FourThirds format is nominally the "equivalent" in Field of View, the rest of the imaging dynamics are quite different. For instance, a theoretical 45mm f/2 direct equivalent to the 90/2 has 2 stops more DoF and even then cannot create the same background blur due to the fact that the background magnification is 1/2 what the 90 produces on 35mm format at infinity. Switching to a longer lens to obtain more of that background blur look, you have to reposition yourself to obtain the same subject size, which changes perspective.

    The long and the short of it is that FourThirds is simply a different format from 35mm, just as APS-C is a different format, just as 6x6, 645, 6x9 cm, and 4x5 inch, are all different formats with different dynamics. If you want the dynamics of 35mm film, you need to have a 35mm film format camera.

    The problem with the "dump it if crappy" mentality is that it will lead me to an X1 that I cannot afford, or to a GXR+A12 that I can't afford and that has that weird "lensor" way of working. I don't find any camera on the market that makes me go *wow* and that does not combine this with severe limitations: the X1 has a fixed lens, the NEX UI seems to be very so-so, the M9 is big and costs more than a new kitchen, the S2 with lenses costs nearly as much as our house's new extension, the 43 have a lack of fast primes and so on. I still want to make photos, so I'm trying out different compromises while curmudgeoning my way through the market.
    I find few cameras that make me go "wow!", frankly. Cameras are tools, just like hammers and wrenches, or pens and pencils. There's only so good a tool can become before further deliberation over the tool's qualities start to overshadow enjoying what the tool produces as the primary reason for being involved with it.

    Even the now-ancient E-1 is still an excellent tool for making superb photographs ... great ergonomics, wonderful lenses, quiet and smooth operation albeit slow, relatively low resolution by current standards, etc. It still does not "annoy me enough not to bother with it" and remains a delightful camera to use despite its shortcomings.

    In other words, nails really don't care what hammer hits them, and the furniture the nails and hammer together make is more important than the hammer.

    ... "Equipment so often gets in the way of Photography." ...

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    It might cost more than a new kitchen where you live . . .

    But it isn't big . . . you know . . . it's the smallest full frame camera in the world!

    Jono, Smallest full frame manual focus only digital rangefinder camera in the world? I have real hope that someday Sony would come up with a full frame compact that isn't very expensive.

    The Nikon D3/s/x, OTOH, is about the size of some kitchens and also cost the same or more than one.

    Well, it isn't the size/cost of the kitchen that matters but what the kitchen produces that does.

  12. #62
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Hi Jono,

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It might cost more than a new kitchen where you live . . .
    As a matter of fact, it does. Obviously, it won't be the kitchen equivalent of a Leica I'm definitely hoping to keep my kitchen below 5000. I'm not putting in an AGA, you know.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But it isn't big . . . you know . . . it's the smallest full frame camera in the world!
    Sure. The smallest 8x10 camera is also pretty big. I think I let my mind slip into the compact camera way of thinking when I wrote that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Once the equipment works well enough, I'm simply not fussy enough to keep changing equipment on the hope that some small thing will provide anything much better.
    Me neither. Except the small change I'm looking for is a move from film to digital, and a replacement for my broken LX3 Except when I've been on forums for far too long, then everything I have seems bad and everything else seems good, or vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The aesthetic experience of a top of the line SLR viewfinder is unmatched by any electronic display so far, but I don't rate viewfinders so much for their aesthetic experience as I do by how well they allow me to focus and frame, and control the camera. There the EVF on the G1 and E-P2 excel, imo.
    I agree. I completely freaked out on how nice the viewfinder of the OM-4Ti was with the 90/f2 and I used basically just that lens for a 6 week trip to Japan. Afterwards I discovered the advantages of using my other lenses as well and, while still admiring the qualities of the 90/f2, I actually started using it more as a tool. I guess I got a bit of an attack of something similar to audiophilia back then. I use my amp and speakers to listen to music, but I know people who use it to listen to the sound of their cabling


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    For instance, a theoretical 45mm f/2 direct equivalent to the 90/2 has 2 stops more DoF and even then cannot create the same background blur due to the fact that the background magnification is 1/2 what the 90 produces on 35mm format at infinity.
    Now here's a bit that I don't understand. I get the DOF bit: DOF of a 45mm at f2.8 on 43 should be the same as DOF of a 90mm at f5.6 on film. Others add that, if you increase the ISO of the film to get the same exposure, this also compensates for the higher sensitivity of each pixel on the larger sensor. Is the image even then still different in another way ? Can you elaborate a bit on the bacground magnification ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    In other words, nails really don't care what hammer hits them, and the furniture the nails and hammer together make is more important than the hammer.

    ... "Equipment so often gets in the way of Photography." ...
    Ooh, yeah, after being on a few forums for a few years, that definitely applies to me. I found that love for equipment sometimes helps me to keep going with photography, which results in more experience after a while, which results in me being a better photographer. And because I buy equipment rather infrequently, I sometimes find myself using some old piece of kit and being able to use it without paying attention to the equipment, instead being fully in the moment and reporting it. Referring to the analogy ("Great food, you must have great pots !"), some cooks actually are gearheads about pots and knifes and the lot. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it keeps pointing back to actually doing something useful with it in the end.

    I also find it's much harder to discuss photos on a forum than it is to discuss equipment. I was thinking of building a visual photo commentary site that would make it easy to point out some things (circle around a detail: "this takes away the attention from the subject", etc.). But I don't have time to do that at the moment.


    Peter.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    the 90/2 has 2 stops more DoF and even then cannot create the same background blur due to the fact that the background magnification is 1/2 what the 90 produces on 35mm format at infinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    Can you elaborate a bit on the background magnification ?
    HI Peter
    I think it's called godfreydegook . . . oops, shouldn't have said that

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    Now here's a bit that I don't understand. I get the DOF bit: DOF of a 45mm at f2.8 on 43 should be the same as DOF of a 90mm at f5.6 on film. Others add that, if you increase the ISO of the film to get the same exposure, this also compensates for the higher sensitivity of each pixel on the larger sensor. Is the image even then still different in another way ? Can you elaborate a bit on the bacground magnification ?
    If we agree that the crop factor (wohoo) is 2 despite the different aspects of ratio between 4/3 and FF and have two optically perfect lenses...

    ...then an image taken with a 4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.

    That's the theory and while understanding the theory I have actually tried it as well.

    (You can then discuss noise and double the ISO setting as well to make the images "identical" but I leave that to the sensor and equivalency freaks)

    /Jonas

  15. #65
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    ...an image taken with a 4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.
    Jonas,

    That's how I understood it, too. Time for Olympus to launch a 45/f1 macro. As long as it has the exact same signature as my 90/f2 for OM, of course

    Oh, and it can't be more than what I paid for my 90/f2 second hand (700, I really wonder what that lens went for new !).


    Peter.

    (tongue still firmly in cheek, if that wasn't clear)

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    Jonas,

    That's how I understood it, too. Time for Olympus to launch a 45/f1 macro. As long as it has the exact same signature as my 90/f2 for OM, of course

    Oh, and it can't be more than what I paid for my 90/f2 second hand (700, I really wonder what that lens went for new !).

    (tongue still firmly in cheek, if that wasn't clear)
    I seriously think they (or Panasonic) should do exactly that, or say an f/1.2 version. I know I have mentioned it earlier... such a lens would be a statement showing some commitment and visions with the system. (And I am serious.)

    The exact same signature as the 90/2 Macro... I don't know. That 90mm is blistering sharp wide open, improves slightly and then keep the flag at top. But I wouldn't mind a less with less LoCA. Now I don't know how possible it is to make an 45/1.2 APO but I figure 700 won't cover it...

    Cheers,

    Jonas

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    DOF/back ground blur on an m4/3rds does not need a lens that is twice as fast compared to film.

    The DOF tables are based on many assumptions that do not hold true here.

    No need for a 45/1, especially from Olympus. These guys can't even make decent a bottom grade kitzoom.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    ...then an image taken with a 4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.

    That's the theory and while understanding the theory I have actually tried it as well.
    Well, I'm not sure that it's quite that simple (see Vivek above) - but even if we do go with that.
    IMHO there are also advantages in the larger depth of field / aperture which m4/3 gives. Especially with macro lenses, where a lack of depth of field is usually more of a problem than a too much dof.

    You could turn the argument around and say that the PL 45 will give about twice the DOF of the Olympus 90 at f2.8 (hooray). I guess it's a half full, half empty argument.

    Me? I actually like both in different circumstances, so I'll use a different camera depending on those circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want the size that an f1 45mm would be in m4/3.

    One thing that is certain sure is that the PL 45 macro has a splendid signature and lovely bokeh.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    DOF/back ground blur on an m4/3rds does not need a lens that is twice as fast compared to film.

    The DOF tables are based on many assumptions that do not hold true here.

    No need for a 45/1, especially from Olympus. These guys can't even make decent a bottom grade kitzoom.
    I'm quite sure you know better than mix DOF with background blur. Maybe you don't like the Olympus kit zoom but I have seen many very good lenses made by Olympus. I don't care a lot about who makes the lens as long as it is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, I'm not sure that it's quite that simple (see Vivek above) - but even if we do go with that.
    IMHO there are also advantages in the larger depth of field / aperture which m4/3 gives. Especially with macro lenses, where a lack of depth of field is usually more of a problem than a too much dof.
    There is nothing like "even" if we do go with that. Just skip the DOF tables and try it out.
    You could turn the argument around and say that the PL 45 will give about twice the DOF of the Olympus 90 at f2.8 (hooray). I guess it's a half full, half empty argument.
    The only time a 4/3 machine can beat a FF camera with regards to DOF is when the 4/3 lens has an f/22 setting and the FF camera lens lack the f/44 setting (or f/16 and f/32 respectively, assuming all lenses can be stopped down to f/16 at least).

    Set the PL45 to f/2.8 and the OM90/2 to f/5.6 and you get the same DOF and background blur. But I bet anyone wanting a super sharp and crisp image will prefer the OM90/2 image.

    Me? I actually like both in different circumstances, so I'll use a different camera depending on those circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want the size that an f1 45mm would be in m4/3.
    Why? How big would it need to be? Check the size of the Pen 42/1.2 and then add some for better optics, it doesn't look impossible to carry at all.

    One thing that is certain sure is that the PL 45 macro has a splendid signature and lovely bokeh.
    With that I agree, absolutely!

    /Jonas

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Jonas, They aren't unrelated. I meant the DOF. I don't want to type all the stuff I already did earlier in one discussion in this section of the forum. It is somewhere here (discussion between me and Douglas).

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jonas, They aren't unrelated. I meant the DOF. I don't want to type all the stuff I already did earlier in one discussion in this section of the forum. It is somewhere here (discussion between me and Douglas).
    OK, if you meant the DOF only it is better. But I think the DOF theories are close enough for the sort of the discussion we are having here.

    Fortunately, the search engine came up with nothing when I looked for "discussion between Vivek and Douglas" - I don't think everything needs to be repeated all over every photo forum. Was there anything special in there I really need to read?

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Jonas, I quoted Dr. Brian Caldwell's post (p.net) and his explanations about the effect of thick glass on the sensor. In short, the more glass on the sensor, more fuzz.
    The G1's sensor has ~4.75mm thick extra glass. Loads of fuzz. (Film = zero glass induced fuzz).

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jonas, I quoted Dr. Brian Caldwell's post (p.net) and his explanations about the effect of thick glass on the sensor. In short, the more glass on the sensor, more fuzz.
    The G1's sensor has ~4.75mm thick extra glass. Loads of fuzz. (Film = zero glass induced fuzz).
    Thank you, I suspected there could be something since you mentioned it. However, I wouldn't say that is anything really having an effect on this discussion, especially not when comparing to othe rdigital cameras also if they don't have as much raffle stacked on top of the sensor as our (m)4/3 cameras have.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    The only time a 4/3 machine can beat a FF camera with regards to DOF is when the 4/3 lens has an f/22 setting and the FF camera lens lack the f/44 setting (or f/16 and f/32 respectively, assuming all lenses can be stopped down to f/16 at least).
    I understand where you are coming from Jonas (larger sensor = better high iso so you can shoot with a smaller aperture to get the same shutter speed and thus dof blah blah), but I don't agree in practice, and whichever way you look at it, you'll need a bigger package to get the same dof with a larger sensor.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I understand where you are coming from Jonas (larger sensor = better high iso so you can shoot with a smaller aperture to get the same shutter speed and thus dof blah blah), but I don't agree in practice, and whichever way you look at it, you'll need a bigger package to get the same dof with a larger sensor.
    Funny you keep on mention the part I said I leave to the equivalency freaks. The interesting part is that the theories (the 45/2.8 vs 90/5.6 thing we were talking about, and the noise discussion does as well, it depends on the latest sensor technology in what camera) actually work in real life.

    Indeed Jono, isn't that true - the smaller sensor and short register distance makes for smaller lenses and that is sweet and nice. We can see it come true with the WA zooms, the pancake lenses and the 45 macro.
    My bag loaded with native lenses is easy to carry these days. I wish it was a little heavier, as it would have been fun with at least one fast lens in it.

    Cheers,

    Jonas

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Funny you keep on mention the part I said I leave to the equivalency freaks. The interesting part is that the theories (the 45/2.8 vs 90/5.6 thing we were talking about, and the noise discussion does as well, it depends on the latest sensor technology in what camera) actually work in real life.
    I'm sorry Jonas I thought you were into the 'equivalency' thing, if not I apologise. I guess I find the theoretical arguments rather tiresome

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Indeed Jono, isn't that true - the smaller sensor and short register distance makes for smaller lenses and that is sweet and nice. We can see it come true with the WA zooms, the pancake lenses and the 45 macro.
    My bag loaded with native lenses is easy to carry these days. I wish it was a little heavier, as it would have been fun with at least one fast lens in it.

    Cheers,

    Jonas
    Well, I have a nice light bag with 2 bodies and fast lenses in it:
    16 f4
    28 f2
    35 f1.4
    50 f1.4
    70 f2

    and the PL 45 f2.8
    works for me

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm sorry Jonas I thought you were into the 'equivalency' thing, if not I apologise. I guess I find the theoretical arguments rather tiresome
    It's OK. So do I, it's just odd that so many 4/3 believers, not to say apologists, don't try them and find out that they actually work. Now we can leave that.

    Well, I have a nice light bag with 2 bodies and fast lenses in it:
    16 f4
    28 f2
    35 f1.4
    50 f1.4
    70 f2

    and the PL 45 f2.8
    works for me
    ...and the only 4/3 lens on that list is the 45/2.8.

    Just as your bag mine mainly contain so called legacy lenses. I keep switching between a decent Computar 12.5/1.3 and the 4/3 9-18mm. Then I use the Panasonic 25/1.4 as a fast normal is my base lens. I let the Zuiko OM50/2 Macro take care about everything in the 50mm region and then I seldom need anything longer. When I do I have a 70/1.4 (Astroscope, a Navitar clone) and a CV75/2.5 and finally there is a Leica 180/3.4 APO lens in a drawer somewhere should it ever be needed.

    So, 12.5, 25 and 50 it is, none of them a native 4/3 lens.

    good light,

    Jonas

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post


    ...and the only 4/3 lens on that list is the 45/2.8.
    Yes, certainly, but the difference is that my 'legacy' lenses all go on their legacy camera (M9) (so that 16 is nice and wide )

    Actually, I sometimes carry the Oly 14-42 kit, or the pana 20 f1.7 with me on different occasions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    So, 12.5, 25 and 50 it is, none of them a native 4/3 lens.

    good light,

    Jonas
    certainly an interesting collection
    and good light to you too!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Peter
    I think it's called godfreydegook . . . oops, shouldn't have said that
    You're right, you shouldn't have.

    It's obvious you don't understand, and I'm no longer motivated enough to participate in this thread.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Contax G2 :: Remarkable lenses, superb build, wonderful meter and it just about drove me crazy the way the controls worked in operation. Crappy camera.
    Mmmm I owned a G1 and soon updated for a G2 and I loved that camera. The only crappy thing was manual focusing. But if you accepted to work with the AF the other controls were very straight forward. The TLA 200 flash was not good : it overexposed all the shots .. but the bigger one (forgot its name) was working well and it had a second smaller flash that allowed you to get that catch light in the eyes when you bounced it.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Hi Godfrey
    It was a joke - you know, cheery stuff - nothing personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You're right, you shouldn't have.

    It's obvious you don't understand
    I understand very little, but you've known that for a long time

    Just this guy you know

  32. #82
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?



    Anyhow, I do have a hope and expectation that Photokina will bring the GH2 and E-P3... a global shutter and low lag EVF would be real improvements imho.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post


    Anyhow, I do have a hope and expectation that Photokina will bring the GH2 and E-P3... a global shutter and low lag EVF would be real improvements imho.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Just don't let them forget the weathersealing and the 12-60 zoom please

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    I hear you Jono, but would the price be bearable? I'll keep my fingers crossed... but just getting the base of m4/3rds lenses covered seems to be difficult enough - without them engineering weather sealed versions for a small premium market.

    Is a Leica M8/M9 weathersealed?

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I hear you Jono, but would the price be bearable? I'll keep my fingers crossed... but just getting the base of m4/3rds lenses covered seems to be difficult enough - without them engineering weather sealed versions for a small premium market.

    Is a Leica M8/M9 weathersealed?

    Cheers

    Brian
    Well, I'd pay for it. as for the M8/M9 - no, and it's the biggest cry from wedding photographers about it - the S2 is though, and I would have thought than any new M camera would be as well.

    I just thought today, as we're off to Latitude for the weekend - rain forecast, and if I still had it I'd be taking the E3 with the 12-60.

    Incidentally - I do trust the EPx in the rain pretty thoroughly, after dropping one into 2ft of water in a muddy ditch for 3 minutes and seeing how little water got in, other cameras I've destroyed (ricoh G100, 1 splash from a wave on the edge of the LCD, Canon G11 - running dog caught strap, straight into a lake). . . . . erm, maybe you're beginning to see my point about weathersealing!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    We should not pay for it! I thought the bottom of the pit Olympus 14-42's lack of light sealing (!) was bad , it turns out the "gold ringed", "top of the line", "pro" zoom of Nikon (24-70/2.8) suffers from the same ills!

    The cam companies must be held accountable and those idiotic "review" sites that act as sales promoters of these companies be put in their right place.

    There ought to be some basic standards that all camera gear (whatever the price may be) should qualify first to be on sale. Colors, logos, matching accessories- this is where they should strive to make a lot of money.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    (...)
    Colors, logos, matching accessories- this is where they should strive to make a lot of money.
    And so they do Vivek - if you want an original matching rear lens cap for 4/3 here in Sweden you have to shell out 10 for it. Not to mention an extra akku (dead horse, I know).

    Well, I agree with you this time. It is really disappointing seeing the lousy quality some things are despite having passed the "quality control".

    I don't care for matching colours and all that stuff but I would be happy to pay for good quality lenses if there had been any for sale.

    /Jonas

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Welcome to the consumer society

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    "This is life in the smartphone world," Jobs said. "Phones aren't perfect.

    "We haven't figured out a way around the laws of physics yet."
    from: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...9.html?8889900

    I knew something was amiss when he compared the iphone to a Leica camera (http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/07/s...rom-wwdc-2010/).


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