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Thread: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

  1. #51
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    I've gone to the trouble of shovelling out the original:

    It is a good thing to follow the first law of holes; if you are in one, stop digging.
    [1988 D. Healey Observer in J. Care (ed.) Sayings of the Eighties]
    it's been said a lot since of course.

    Still, if you don't like rangefinders then you're never going to love an M8, and having also had (and fallen in love with) an R-D1 I wouldn't go back to using it in a thousand years.

    I can accept that you don't like the idea in principle . .

    As for the G9 - you can throw it around as much as you like. Emma threw hers in a lake in Cornwall, it only took a second or two to get it out, by which time the whole camera was full of water . . . a week in the airing cupboard sorted it out, and it was just as despicable as ever

    All the best

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    jono

    ok we agree to differ... lets get back to taking photos...

    best wishes for the festive season

    K

  3. #53
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    jono

    ok we agree to differ... lets get back to taking photos...

    best wishes for the festive season

    K
    How does it go?
    Peace and Love?

    Best Wishes to You too - when are you off to Cairo?

    We're going here for Christmas:



    where our baby has a job as a 'ski man' and a french girlfriend.

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    off to Cairo sunday afternoon... back in Paris wednesday and then of to Edinburgh next sunday until the New Year.

    Enjoy the skiing - like rangefinders... not my cup of tea.. but each to their own :-)

    take care
    K

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Vivek
    I quite agree M8 is to the G1 what the G1 is to the G10/G200.
    At least, in terms of image sophistication.
    I do not think I meant it that way. But as an M8 owner if that is how it comes across to you, Jono, I am happy to be of help!

    As you mentioned yourself, M8 has been discussed to death over the net by folks who do not love it. I am not passionate about cameras or logos. I do not own an M8. I owned an Epson R-D1s for ~ 1.5 years (in hindsight a mistake but I don't dwell on such). I will not buy a digital range finder (red dot, blue dot whatever) ever again.

  6. #56
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I will not buy a digital range finder (red dot, blue dot whatever) ever again.
    Nor I. The era of coupled rangefinder is over.

    The G1 is the modern Barnack.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    What an exquisite opportunity for Zeiss if Leica has declined to participate in the Micro Four Thirds concept.

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    Senior Member Per Ofverbeck's Avatar
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Nor I. The era of coupled rangefinder is over.

    The G1 is the modern Barnack.
    Funny, I said the same thing to myself the other day.

    Barnack was a true innovator. Both the use of cine film in a small still camera, and (later) the coupled rangefinder were the cutting edge of technology when he adopted them.

    He would have shaken his head over the trend to "embalm" these technologies today, still talking of "full frame" sensors and the absolute superiority of optical coincidence rangefinders.

    Today, he would have designed a GREAT new camera using the same kind of EVF and focussing aids that the G1 is using.....

    (To stem flaming: I do agree on the following:

    1) The image quality of the M8 is incredible.

    2) Optical finders and rangefinders still suit some shooters´ mode of work very well.

    I sincerely hope these shooters continue to find such tools available ("affordable" may be too much to wish for...)! But they´re not everyone´s cup of tea, really. My M2 rests slightly used in a cupboard while my Leicaflex SL´s were totally worn out...)
    Last edited by Per Ofverbeck; 14th December 2008 at 01:42.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I will not buy a digital range finder (red dot, blue dot whatever) ever again.
    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Nor I. The era of coupled rangefinder is over.

    The G1 is the modern Barnack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Per Ofverbeck View Post

    Barnack was a true innovator. Both the use of cine film in a small still camera, and (later) the coupled rangefinder were the cutting edge of technology when he adopted them.

    He would have shaken his head over the trend to "embalm" these technologies today, still talking of "full frame" sensors and the absolute superiority of optical coincidence rangefinders.
    Oh! I quite agree with you all about the era of the coupled rangefinder being over, just not that the M8 is a disaster (these are not the same thing).

    However, there is a point about a rangefinder which is nothing to do with coupling, and still has as much artistic validity as it ever had . . . . . which is being able to see all around the subject, I find this delightful and invaluable, and I think it is a point that those who don't like or haven't used rangefinders usually miss out on.

    Framelines and a wider angle of view on a bright viewfinder are a real joy to use. It doesn't need a nasty little focus patch in the middle!

    In addition, the fact that when you bring your camera to your eye you always see the same 'view' of the world makes it like having a second eye, rather than something stuck in front of it; you can also keep your other eye open, for me it makes the camera dissolve into the background, and of course this has an effect on both the way one shoots, and the way one's subject perceives you.

    My dream camera would have an evf and lcd (like the G1) but it would ALSO have a viewfinder like an M8 or R-D1, with an overlay to show 'proper' framelines, which would zoom with a zoom, and a patch at the bottom showing exposure values and focus confirmation (whether auto or manual). You could also have 3 or 4 different 'views' to accomodate different lens ranges (i.e. one which was equivalent to 15mm, one to 35, one to 90).

    This is why I'm so disappointed that Leica seem to have opted out on this one - I was thinking that something the size of a CL, with a m4/3 mount, all the normal g1 gubbins AND an optical viewfinder with overlay would be something that almost any m series lover would want.

    As I say, there are times when it is great to see what you are leaving out of a picture, as well as what you are keeping in.

    Steen - quite agree about an opportunity for Zeiss, but I fear that their Sony tie in would preclude any real deal on m4/3.
    Last edited by jonoslack; 14th December 2008 at 03:18.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Per Ofverbeck View Post

    He would have shaken his head over the trend to "embalm" these technologies today, still talking of "full frame" sensors and the absolute superiority of optical coincidence rangefinders.

    Today, he would have designed a GREAT new camera using the same kind of EVF and focussing aids that the G1 is using.....
    Been talking to him, have you? I just find it funny when people tear dead people out of their graves to prove their arguments. It is a very popular pastime in US politics -- "The founding fathers wouldn't have supported gun control, the founding fathers don't think gays should marry etc etc" Who knows what Oskar Barnack would have liked? He could have been an old curmudgeon who refused to use anything other than his Leica IIIf, or maybe he would be a wedding videographer! Who cares?


    Other than that, I am basically entirely with Jono here -- I am ok with the M8 since it gives me a digital way to use my M lenses, while still maintaining an optical rangefinder. I would like digitally or optically projected accurate framelines, but I am ok with the rangefinder patch. I have not met an EVF I have liked, but I am willing to believe that one day we may get there. I think a better option for rangefinders would be to build upon HUD (head up displays) that are used in a great deal of military and aviation technology. That way you have the purity and speed of optical vision combined with the utility of an EVF. I am sure Oskar Barnack would agree with me.
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Been talking to him, have you? I just find it funny when people tear dead people out of their graves to prove their arguments. It is a very popular pastime in US politics -- "The founding fathers wouldn't have supported gun control, the founding fathers don't think gays should marry etc etc" Who knows what Oskar Barnack would have liked? He could have been an old curmudgeon who refused to use anything other than his Leica IIIf, or maybe he would be a wedding videographer! Who cares?
    Well said, Stuart!

    The funniest thing I found on the web that gives a glimpse as to what Oskar Barnack might say (you articulated it nicely in the quoted portion) is this: http://homepage2.nifty.com/omboy/mai...ni_letter.html


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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Careful he is listening
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Oh! I quite agree with you all about the era of the coupled rangefinder being over, just not that the M8 is a disaster (these are not the same thing).
    Agreed. The M8 is in no way a disaster. I really enjoyed mine.

    I probably should add two words to my previous comment: 'the era of the coupled rangefinder is over' --- for me.

    I could focus my first M3 no problem -- when I was 18. But that was 8 presidential elections ago. But I never could focus or frame very accurately with a 200mm lens for some reason. Or even a 135.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    PS> Thanks Oskar.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    I'm not quite sure how well the m4/3s lenses would work beyond the 4/3s sensor, but it would be interesting to put an APS-C sensor in one to use for the EVF so you could see the surrounding area (even if the lens doesn't render it perfectly) but only capture and store the same area a 4/3s sensor would when you take a photo. Of course since it's an EVF adding frame lines and supporting any level of zoom or wide angle would be easy. With the M8 out of my price range I could get my rangefinder fix without going to film.

  16. #66
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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    Posting comments on a camera not used regularly for at least a couple of weeks does lengthen a thread unnecessarily, I guess. There are people trading in their M8 for a M8.2, instead of having the shutter exchanged etc. (or just carrying on with it like me). There will be (few) people parting with their M8, for various reasons. All this reverses the price trend the M8 had untill this autumn, since when it started getting more affordable.
    Why not get a second-hand M8 plus a second-hand 24 or 28 or 35 (or a blue dot lens, or just a 4/25 I am serious, which unlike the 4/21 is good) and give it a try?
    I said this in person to two guys since October and they have not regretted it. C&N (the major sellers) did, regarding these two! One sold two thirds of his DSLR gear and the other is at it right now, because he doesn't need long glass nor does he do macros.
    The Epson cam can be mentioned, but please not to someone who used it. It made me go back to the M6 I still have somewhere & DSLR, which with a 1.4/28 on a new body I still use in very low light.

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    Re: The Viability of a Leica M4/3rd camera

    I have been watching the used M8s go down in the price with some interest. I wonder though if $3000 + cost of lenses wouldn't be better spent on other items since I just have a GRD2 and E-510 with the kit lenses right now. With the economy the way it is now I've been saving up some in case of layoffs so I don't have to move back to the US immediately. Come spring I'll be able to consider it more seriously.

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