Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Topaz artefacts

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Unhappy Topaz artefacts

    spot the difference ...





    First image processed in Capture One without sharpening.
    Second image sharpened with Topaz Sharpen AI v1.1.3 (trial version) using the first image as input.

    This particular example was shot with a Sony A7R2 but the same artefacts occur in images shot with my Fuji GFX-50s.
    Odd thing is it's always more or less in the same location (top edge) and especially in blue skies (or in any solid colour) noticeable.

    I'm sure I must be doing something wrong here.
    But what ? Any suggestions ?

    TIA
    Bart ...

  2. #2
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Hi Bart, that doesn't look very good

    I have only used Topaz sharpen AI to combat motion blur (with good results), but not as a general sharpening tool. But I've not seen any such artifacts. You could always put it on a layer on top of your original and mask it off, but that's a lot of work. Maybe just report it to Topaz as a "bug" and see what they say.

    For general sharpening I find Topaz "Detail" much easier and faster to use, especially since my system is now almost 5 years old and running a 24 MP image through Topaz sharpen AI takes several minutes.
    My Pics
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Hi Bart, that doesn't look very good

    I have only used Topaz sharpen AI to combat motion blur (with good results), but not as a general sharpening tool. But I've not seen any such artifacts. You could always put it on a layer on top of your original and mask it off, but that's a lot of work. Maybe just report it to Topaz as a "bug" and see what they say.

    For general sharpening I find Topaz "Detail" much easier and faster to use, especially since my system is now almost 5 years old and running a 24 MP image through Topaz sharpen AI takes several minutes.
    Thanks, Pieter. Let me add that when using a RAW file the sharpened image looks okay (takes ages for the process to complete), but then I end up with a huge JPEG.
    Bart ...

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Thanks, Pieter. Let me add that when using a RAW file the sharpened image looks okay (takes ages for the process to complete), but then I end up with a huge JPEG.
    I downloaded your original image and ran it like you did and get exactly the same result, I varied the top two sliders ("Remove Blur" and "Suppress Noise") a bit but again the problem persists. What is strange that if you enlarge to 400% and just look at the processed preview of a small area the worst artifact is always in the right top corner of the preview, irrespective of where exactly you are in the image along the top border.

    And in your original file I can't see anything (not even a hint) of slightly different colour blue pixels that the program might mistake for detail that needs to be brought out.

    I'd say it's a bug and I would report it to Topaz. I'll find an image from myself that shows the same effect and do the same.


    Edit: just did, but I processed an image to about the same size as yours from Lightroom, it gave very similar artifacts in Sharpen AI along the blue sky top border.
    so it seems C1 is not the culprit. I thought it was very unlikely that it would, but now we're sure.


    Edit 2: Here's my two examples:

    Exported from LR, without any sharpening (slider at zero in the converter, none in the export dialog)




    Above image, sharpened in Topaz AI (default parameters) ==> Artifacts galore along the top border




    And added just for fun, first image, sharpened with Topaz Detail (minor small and middle details and .10 deblur) ==> No artifacts and slightly different result from sharpen AI on the statue, can't really decide which is better, they're just a tiny bit different.
    Last edited by pegelli; 22nd April 2019 at 03:44.
    My Pics
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sea of Cortez, Mexico
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Hi Bart,
    Though this isn't banding, over on the luminous-landscape forum there are a number of threads on the new Topaz AI programs and users are reporting a variety of issues, some of which have been solved due to user feedback.
    One photographer reported that he was getting banding until he switched raw converters, and then the banding disappeared.
    Bart van der Wolf (who is actually doing some testing for Topaz) has speculated: "Actually, this (potential) Raw converter dependency is a very fascinating observation that will take further investigation to validate. If so, it might suggest that in using the specific images used for training (the training set), the various models were derived from under-represented common ACR conversions. Then feeding ACR conversions, the supposed grid structure would look to an AI system as genuine detail to preserve and enhance, in whatever mode it was operating.

    Again speculating, if so, it could lead to improvements in Raw conversion and/or of the "training set". Either way, it could lead to better tools."

    You might try a different raw converter and see if this solves the problem since Topaz might not be using C1 to train their AI.

    Another point: I've personally found that if I'm running another application and working on something unrelated while an image is being run through these Topaz AI programs I'll sometimes get a block of multicolored interference, for want of another word, somewhere in the background. If I run the image through again and close all other apps that interference disappears. My MBPro video card only has 2gb VRAM so I'm probably overtaxing the system by running Photoshop or Aperture at the same time.

    Just a couple of thoughts here, hoping that one might provide a solution. And as Pegelli suggested, do report this to Topaz as they are quick to look into these issues. Your problem if reported could result in a solution.

    Lawrence
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I downloaded your original image and ran it like you did and get exactly the same result, I varied the top two sliders ("Remove Blur" and "Suppress Noise") a bit but again the problem persists. What is strange that if you enlarge to 400% and just look at the processed preview of a small area the worst artifact is always in the right top corner of the preview, irrespective of where exactly you are in the image along the top border.

    And in your original file I can't see anything (not even a hint) of slightly different colour blue pixels that the program might mistake for detail that needs to be brought out.

    I'd say it's a bug and I would report it to Topaz. I'll find an image from myself that shows the same effect and do the same.


    Edit: just did, but I processed an image to about the same size as yours from Lightroom, it gave very similar artifacts in Sharpen AI along the blue sky top border.
    so it seems C1 is not the culprit. I thought it was very unlikely that it would, but now we're sure.

    Above image, sharpened in Topaz AI (default parameters) ==> Artifacts galore along the top border
    Hi Pieter, when you look closely you'll notice the artefacts in a kind of square pattern almost everywhere in your image !
    Most noticeably in the top right corner and then slightly decreasing in intensity going to the lower left corner.
    At least that's how they appear on my monitor (27" iMac) ...

    Krgds.
    Bart ...
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    Hi Bart,
    Though this isn't banding, over on the luminous-landscape forum there are a number of threads on the new Topaz AI programs and users are reporting a variety of issues, some of which have been solved due to user feedback.
    One photographer reported that he was getting banding until he switched raw converters, and then the banding disappeared.
    Bart van der Wolf (who is actually doing some testing for Topaz) has speculated: "Actually, this (potential) Raw converter dependency is a very fascinating observation that will take further investigation to validate. If so, it might suggest that in using the specific images used for training (the training set), the various models were derived from under-represented common ACR conversions. Then feeding ACR conversions, the supposed grid structure would look to an AI system as genuine detail to preserve and enhance, in whatever mode it was operating.

    Again speculating, if so, it could lead to improvements in Raw conversion and/or of the "training set". Either way, it could lead to better tools."

    You might try a different raw converter and see if this solves the problem since Topaz might not be using C1 to train their AI.

    Another point: I've personally found that if I'm running another application and working on something unrelated while an image is being run through these Topaz AI programs I'll sometimes get a block of multicolored interference, for want of another word, somewhere in the background. If I run the image through again and close all other apps that interference disappears. My MBPro video card only has 2gb VRAM so I'm probably overtaxing the system by running Photoshop or Aperture at the same time.

    Just a couple of thoughts here, hoping that one might provide a solution. And as Pegelli suggested, do report this to Topaz as they are quick to look into these issues. Your problem if reported could result in a solution.

    Lawrence
    Hi there Lawrence,

    good point regarding the RAW converter. However Pieter already tried Lightroom with the same results as with Capture One, but I will give Luminar a try too.
    Fact is without a RAW converter interfering, there are no artefacts (or at least not noticeable to me).
    Note: I have converted the RAW image with JPEG output at 100%, but of course it has been down-sized ...

    Brgds.
    Last edited by Knorp; 22nd April 2019 at 09:30.
    Bart ...

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Okay, I've just run Topaz Sharpen AI against a Luminar converted down-sized image (7952x5304 to 2023x1350). Result: same artefacts.
    However I also tried an 'original' sized Luminar converted JPEG (7952x5304) and this time there are no artefacts !
    So this single experiment would suggest that down-sized images are prone to these Topaz Sharpen AI artefacts.
    Bart ...

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    303
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Fact is without a RAW converter interfering, there are no artefacts (or at least not noticeable to me).
    Is there a RAW converter that doesn't "interfere"?

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Is there a RAW converter that doesn't "interfere"?
    When no raw converter is used it cannot interfere

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    303
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    When no raw converter is used it cannot interfere
    Why bother sharpening jpegs?

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Okay, I've just run Topaz Sharpen AI against a Luminar converted down-sized image (7952x5304 to 2023x1350). Result: same artefacts.
    However I also tried an 'original' sized Luminar converted JPEG (7952x5304) and this time there are no artefacts !
    So this single experiment would suggest that down-sized images are prone to these Topaz Sharpen AI artefacts.
    Right, same result with Capture One: the full-size JPEG (7952x5304) converted from the RAW-image sharpened with Topaz also shows no artefacts.
    So running Topaz against the RAW-file or the converted full-size JPEG (including post-processing) will result in a sharpened 'clean' image.

    Next challenge: trying to explain this 'All Dutch' to the Topaz team ...
    Bart ...

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Okay, I've just run Topaz Sharpen AI against a Luminar converted down-sized image (7952x5304 to 2023x1350). Result: same artefacts.
    However I also tried an 'original' sized Luminar converted JPEG (7952x5304) and this time there are no artefacts !
    So this single experiment would suggest that down-sized images are prone to these Topaz Sharpen AI artefacts.
    Bart, I think you're onto something. Just ran the same images I ran before, with a jpeg exported from Lightroom but without resizing. No artefacts when running that file through Topaz Sharpen AI. So even though we can't see anything special in the resized image Topaz Sharpen AI unfortunately does, and tries to sharpen something that isn't really there. The downsized image that did cause artifacts earlier was done at maximum jpg quality, so apparently that's not enough.

    Btw, thanks for spotting the other artefacts "mid field" in the other image, I hadn't seen that yet, well spotted and now I see them all and wonder how I missed these at first sight
    My Pics
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Why bother sharpening jpegs?
    The real question is "sharpening at capture resolution" or "sharpening at output resolution". I usually get the best results with the latter, so can be with jpegs or tiffs, not with the raw. YMMV.

    But your question raises another variation we can try, how does sharpen AI react to a Lightroom exported/downsized tiff file? Back to work

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    But your question raises another variation we can try, how does sharpen AI react to a Lightroom exported/downsized tiff file? Back to work
    Result: same artifacts with the downsized TIF's, no difference between 16 bit or 8 bit TIFF's

    Only problem now is that we can test much more, for instance export w/o downsizing and then using different photoshop downsizing methods (nearest neighbour, bilinear or the three bicubic variants) to see if that shows any relief. But I'm going to stop testing here, they just need to fix Sharpen AI so it can handle downsized C1 and Lightroom output. I'm not going to use Sharpen AI in my normal workflow anyway, I'm currently only planning to use it to save key images that show a mild degree of camera shake/motion blur.

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Got a response from Topaz:

    Quote Originally Posted by TOPAZ
    Hi Pieter,

    Thanks for your reply!

    I just checked our current models (which are NOT yet released) for Sharpen AI. I believe the new models can do a better job on your images. In fact, I just tried your image and the annoying artifacts are gone!
    There will be a release for Sharpen AI in early May. We will continue improving our models. Thanks for your patience!

    Sincerely,
    Topaz Labs Support
    Let's keep our fingers crossed
    My Pics
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Got a response from Topaz:



    Let's keep our fingers crossed

    Thanks, Pieter. But I'm not holding my breath ...
    Bart ...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Thanks, Pieter. But I'm not holding my breath ...
    Bart, glad you didn't. It took 5 weeks to fix it and bring out an update. You would not have survived that

    Got an email this morning that both Sharpen AI and Denoise AI got an update They claimed artifacts are now gone on downsized jpg's in Sharpen AI as well as that the exif remains intact in both programs.

    I downloaded the update and tested. It indeed seems the artifacts are gone, also exif camera data is left in place, but for instance the "label" (that's where the Lightroom keywords show) is still gone.

    So a big step forward I would say
    My Pics
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    837
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Topaz artefacts

    i tried gigapixel on a friends computer..

    works WAY better on the original RAW file [dng]

    a raw file resized in LR or C1 and saved as an uncompressed tiff or a jpg has some issues with edges of anything in the frame where the contrast is high

    tried loads of variations but the best result was always from using the original raw file and saving as tiff 16bit to be color processed later

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •