Shutter shock with GFX 100S on digital view cameras

[rdeloe]

I'm using a GFX 100S on my Arca-Swiss F-Universalis with Rotafoot. The GFX 100S is prone to a bit of shutter shock with longer native lenses when using electronic front curtain (EF) shutter, and especially with mechanical shutter (MS).

On my F-Universalis, shutter shock is much worse. MS is simply not usable, and EF produces less sharp results than ES at shutter speeds I use a lot, even with shorter lenses. As a result, I've switched to ES all the time. Thankfully I don't tend to make pictures of propellers, fast electric fan blades, fast moving trains, subjects under fluorescent light, and other subjects and situations where ES is a problem.

Here's an example to illustrate the concern:

• The top row is a highly magnified crop made with the 100S and a Mamiya N 43mm f/4.5 L on a direct-to-camera adapter.
• The bottom row is the same lens on my F-Universalis with 100S
• In each row, the images are ES, EF and MS

Interestingly, I never noticed any issues with my GFX 50R on the F-Universalis.

I'm curious to know if this is a problem limited to GFX 100S and F-Universalis, or does it show up with other combinations. For example, I've heard that it's not a problem with GFX 100S and a Linhof Techno. What about Cambo Actus? Other digital view cameras with GFX 100S? And what about the GFX 50S II, which has the same (similar?) body as the 100S? As I noted at the outset, I do not see shutter shock with my GFX 50R.

 

[GeorgeBo]

Rob - the first question that comes to mind is IBIS turned on? I have a 50S II and have used it a number of times on my Cambo Actus. But I have not looked to the level of comparison you have above. Now on my list to do next time I have that kit out. But I always turn off IBIS when using it with the Cambo or on any tripod for that matter.

 

[rdeloe]

Rob - the first question that comes to mind is IBIS turned on? I have a 50S II and have used it a number of times on my Cambo Actus. But I have not looked to the level of comparison you have above. Now on my list to do next time I have that kit out. But I always turn off IBIS when using it with the Cambo or on any tripod for that matter.

IBIS is definitely off. That was the first thing I checked too!

Yes please to checking your 50S II on your Actus. If you're able to use the same lens and check it with a direct-to-camera adapter and on your Actus, that will give you a baseline like the one above.

I used an original Sony A7R and know all about shutter shock. I was not happy to have to deal with that again. Thankfully, for my purposes ES on the GFX 100S works very well.

 

[GeorgeBo]

Rob - I will do some testing, but will be later next week before I will be able to. I am packed up for a week trip and don't have the Actus or Fuji with me. Going Hassy for this trip (DB and film on the 501CM)

I have a Pentax 645 direct adapter for GFX and 645 lens mount for the Actus. I have 35mm, 45mm 75mm, 150mm, and 200 macro in 645.

 

[MGrayson]

IBIS is never really off, in the sense that the motors are always powered on. It just means that the motors don't move the sensor in response to camera movements. The sensor is still being held in place by electromagnets. I would expect shutter shock to be worse in that situation than when the sensor is physically bonded to the camera frame. This doesn't explain everything - like why it matters if the lens is physically coupled to the camera body - but it's a factor to consider.

 

[vjbelle]

I have also experienced the same issues - in fact I was surprised that even with EFC shutter shock could occur. The only time I will use mechanical is if I need it for flash or if I need 'Bulb' setting.

Victor B.

 

[P. Chong]

just curious, if this is with IBIS off, how does it look with IBIS on?

 

[vjbelle]

I have had numerous images completely ruined by leaving IBIS on by mistake when the camera is on a tripod. That's the problem for me as I rarely use the camera handheld....

Victor B.

 

[rdeloe]

I have had numerous images completely ruined by leaving IBIS on by mistake when the camera is on a tripod. That's the problem for me as I rarely use the camera handheld....

Victor B.

I assigned IBIS control to a function button so I can check easily. I wish an icon was available on the submonitor. When it's off, you get the icon on the LCD; that icon on the submonitor would be a big help -- especially given there's lots of room for it.

 

[rdeloe]

IBIS is never really off, in the sense that the motors are always powered on. It just means that the motors don't move the sensor in response to camera movements. The sensor is still being held in place by electromagnets. I would expect shutter shock to be worse in that situation than when the sensor is physically bonded to the camera frame. This doesn't explain everything - like why it matters if the lens is physically coupled to the camera body - but it's a factor to consider.

I wonder if that is part of the reason why the GFX 50R does not have this problem. Some people have suggested to me that it's the jump from 50MP to 100MP. I find that unlikely; I think it's the body design (which includes IBIS implementation). I'll know soon because a friend with a 50S II (same basic body as 100S, including IBIS) is going to try it on his F-Universalis.

The data points are going to accumulate!

• I cover 100S plus F-Universalis and 50R plus F-Universalis
• My friend in NZ will do 50S II plus F-Universalis
• A friend in Germany did 100S and Linhof Techno (no issues)
• George is going to do 50S II on a Cambo Actus
• We still need someone with a 100S and a Cambo Actus to do a test (although if George sees shutter shock with his 50S II, we'll likely see it with the 100S as well)

Given that the 100S is fine on a Techno, which has a much beefier rear standard, I predict the evidence will point to the design of the rear standard of whatever camera has the issue.

Unfortunately, the F-Univeralis is about as sturdy as you could hope for with that kind of design. My hunch is that we can have a small, light digital view camera that let's us use lenses with shorter flange focal lengths, but we have to live with shutter shock with some cameras. Maybe Cambo will prove me wrong. As someone who bought an F-Univeralis, it would be annoying if the Actus with a 100S has no shutter shock issues.

This sounds a lot like tripods by the way... same basic problem. You can get rock solid with no vibrations or movements, but you're not going to want to carry it very far.

 

[buildbot]

IBIS is never really off, in the sense that the motors are always powered on. It just means that the motors don't move the sensor in response to camera movements. The sensor is still being held in place by electromagnets. I would expect shutter shock to be worse in that situation than when the sensor is physically bonded to the camera frame. This doesn't explain everything - like why it matters if the lens is physically coupled to the camera body - but it's a factor to consider.

Random thought, perhaps with native lens the IBS is tuned to perfectly lock out when turned off, based on the focal length. But it’s not really locked - it has to move relative to the entire body/lens movement (hopefully, 0 on a tripod). Maybe with non-native lenses or tech cams, the IBS has to best guess based off your entered focal length, and it’s not perfect.

I have also experienced the same issues - in fact I was surprised that even with EFC shutter shock could occur. The only time I will use mechanical is if I need it for flash or if I need 'Bulb' setting.

Victor B.

Odd, I cannot make sense of this. Is any image capturing happening during the time anything mechanical is happening? On the XF, EFCS is supposed to fix shutter shock, so why is it here for the gfx 100s? Is the sensor still drifting during the e-shutter? Why not during pure ES?

 

[rdeloe]

Random thought, perhaps with native lens the IBS is tuned to perfectly lock out when turned off, based on the focal length. But it’s not really locked - it has to move relative to the entire body/lens movement (hopefully, 0 on a tripod). Maybe with non-native lenses or tech cams, the IBS has to best guess based off your entered focal length, and it’s not perfect.


Odd, I cannot make sense of this. Is any image capturing happening during the time anything mechanical is happening? On the XF, EFCS is supposed to fix shutter shock, so why is it here for the gfx 100s? Is the sensor still drifting during the e-shutter? Why not during pure ES?

I have no answers for your questions, but I do want to remind everyone that the GFX 100S shutter shock in EF with native lenses appears to be limited to longer ones. Jim's data tell the story: https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/shutter-shock-in-the-gfx-100s/ When I tested with my GF 35-70 lens, it was fine in EF.

This is a very different scenario from the one I experienced with a Sony A7R, where native and non-native lenses, in any mounting configuration, suffered from shutter shock.

The shutter shock I'm concerned about appears to be limited to the 100S in MS and EF shutters on my Arca Swiss F-Universalis. I need more data from other tests with other cameras and platforms, but at this stage I really think the problem is the 100S on the F-Univeralis, rather than the 100S.

 

[JimKasson]

Odd, I cannot make sense of this. Is any image capturing happening during the time anything mechanical is happening? On the XF, EFCS is supposed to fix shutter shock, so why is it here for the gfx 100s? Is the sensor still drifting during the e-shutter? Why not during pure ES?

The mechanism for EFCS introducing shutter shock is the following: when the second curtain is released, its acceleration causes a response in the camera/head/tripod because of conservation of momentum. That movement takes place while the shutter is still partway open, causing the blur. The amount of shutter shock blur with EFCS is far lower than with MS, but still higher than with ES, where the virtual second curtain doesn't shake the camera.

 

[buildbot]

The mechanism for EFCS introducing shutter shock is the following: when the second curtain is released, its acceleration causes a response in the camera/head/tripod because of conservation of momentum. That movement takes place while the shutter is still partway open, causing the blur. The amount of shutter shock blur with EFCS is far lower than with MS, but still higher than with ES, where the virtual second curtain doesn't shake the camera.

Oh I see, that is amazing that you can see the movement imparted by that. Thanks for the response!!!

(I hear global shutter fans clamoring more now )

 

[rdeloe]

I have some more results, thanks to my friend John in New Zealand who has a GFX 50S II camera and an Arca-Swiss F-Universalis.

In a nutshell, the 50S II has the same shutter shock problem on the F-Universalis as the 100S. The pattern is identical (MS is unusable, EF is worse than ES). John tried it with a longer lens (Mamiya RZ 180mm) and found that the gap between ES and EF closes and almost disappears when you reach approximately 1/100th of a second. I confirmed that result with my Mamiya N 210mm f/8 L.

Paradoxically, turning IBIS on helped the EF frames a bit. This was unexpected; I thought IBIS on while on a tripod would make it worse.

I also double-checked with the GFX 50R again using the same setup. ES is ever so slightly better than EF on the GFX 50R, but the difference is noticeable only at very high magnification (as in 400%). Shutter speed makes no difference, so the 1/18th image was as sharp as the 1/160th image.

 

[vjbelle]

I would have thought that the 50S series would be similar to the 100s. The MS and EF are mandatory for 'Bulb' which is a setting I use ever so often. However the shock manifestations are greatly diminished with longer exposures.

Similar issues are also found with my 7RM5....

Victor B.

 

[rdeloe]

I haven't tried a 50S (the original), but it doesn't have IBIS so I suspect it will perform like the 50R.

From John's testing, it seems the 50S II and the 100S have roughly identical shutter shock performance. The 50S II uses basically the same body as the 100S, so that does make sense.

There's definitely a "sour spot" in the shutter speed range (all credit to John for that great term!) Long exposures should be fine, and short exposures should be fine. I haven't pinned down "long" and "short" in shutter speeds by lens yet. Ballpark, I'd guess that 1 second is fine and I found today that 1/100th is fine with my longest lens (so it's probably fine with all lenses -- TBD).

Shutter shock is probably common to many bodies from many manufacturers under certain situations. It's certainly not as bad as my Sony A7R, where it was all the time with every lens. It stands out for me so strongly because I didn't have to think about it at all using the GFX 50R. That's an unexpected superpower of the 50R body when combined with an F-Univeralis (and an unwanted frustration with a 100S).

I'm a "perfection is the enemy of done" kind of person. Yes, it's not ideal to have to use ES, but it's not holding me back -- so I just carry on. The other benefits of using a 100S on an F-Universalis make it well worth the slight and occasional inconvenience.

Rob

 

[kinglang]

Unrelated to Universalis, I've found that a 50mm lens mounted on gfx100s,is also has chance of getting a shaky photos. They are mounted on a sturdy tripod.ES without ISBS.