The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

ALPA 12 Pano going back into production

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi again Steve. Could you educate me on what "that short lens look" is please? I think I know what you mean, but I could be wrong.

Andy, I think there are a lot of interpretations of this and from people more advanced than I am. But certainly a short lens capture displays more convergence, produces the impression of near distance subjects appearing larger than they really are, relative to the other subject matter in the frame, not to mention more opportunity for distortion and sub par edge performance. Brad Kaye on our team shoots often with the Alpagon 90 HR-SW and an Alpa 12 Pano and stitching images is a breeze, all the shots are just perfect and as good as a 32HR-W is at the edges and corners, shooting that same coverage with a 90 takes the resolution across the frame to a different level.

Paul mentions the detent mechanism, which is very different from other Alpa cameras. Instead of the gearing clicking in and out of the detents along the line as you shift like other Alpa (and other maker's) cameras, the detent mechanism in the Alpa 12 Pano rides below the manual travel, so the digital back can travel from one entire side to another on a seamless carriage. For precision and for registration-critical photography, this is a big positive.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

AndyPtak

Member
Andy, I think there are a lot of interpretations of this and from people more advanced than I am. But certainly a short lens capture displays more convergence, produces the impression of near distance subjects appearing larger than they really are, relative to the other subject matter in the frame, not to mention more opportunity for distortion and sub par edge performance. Brad Kaye on our team shoots often with the Alpagon 90 HR-SW and an Alpa 12 Pano and stitching images is a breeze, all the shots are just perfect and as good as a 32HR-W is at the edges and corners, shooting that same coverage with a 90 takes the resolution across the frame to a different level.

Paul mentions the detent mechanism, which is very different from other Alpa cameras. Instead of the gearing clicking in and out of the detents along the line as you shift like other Alpa (and other maker's) cameras, the detent mechanism in the Alpa 12 Pano rides below the manual travel, so the digital back can travel from one entire side to another on a seamless carriage. For precision and for registration-critical photography, this is a big positive.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Thanks Steve. I thought that's what you menat but I would have caled it wide rather than short so the term confused me a bit. I was beginning to think you were talking about short barrel etc and that started confusing me - doesn't take much!
 

onasj

Active member
I just measured the image circle diameter of the Alpa (Rodenstock) HR 180 SB34 on Instax Wide film and it's 108 mm @ f/5.6, 9 m focusing distance. At 108 mm, that's ±20 mm shift on a 54x40 mm sensor (diagonal = 67.2 mm), consistent with Steve's report.

The Alpa lens specifications list the image circle for this lens at 80 mm @ f/11 and 95 mm @ f/22, so you get a lot more latitude than the specs. Of course if you are using an IQ4-150 sensor and pixel peeping you might choose to drop the outer couple mm. Still, I was surprised how large the image circle is—comparable to that of the HR 50 in my experience.
 

David Kaufman

New member
I use an Arca Swiss M-Line Two which has 33mm of shift in each direction on the back standard as well as 35 mm of rise and fall. There are a number of lenses that can use such extreme shift, especially if used with a 54 x 40 mm back (IQ160 or IQ4 150) in vertical orientation. The Schneider 47mm lens has a 113mm image circle, the Rodenstock 55mm lens has a 125mm lens circle, the Rodenstock 70mm lens has an 110mm lens circle, the Rodenstock 90 has a 110mm lens circle, and the Schneider 120mm lens has a 125mm lens circle. All these lenses when used with the backs above in vertical orientation can be used shifted more than 30mm left or right, for single shot or stitching. They can also be used with rise or fall with such extreme shifting for architectural shots, which I do all the time. The caveat is that each lens has a degree of softness when approaching the image circle limits. With architecture (or scenics) one often is shooting taller buildings surrounded by sky, in which case the fall-off in resolution does not matter. So the Alpa Pano can be very useful for stitching with the appropriate lens, limited only by its meagre 10mm rise and fall.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Ok so I tested the Pano a bit here with regard to movements (you need to add the respective required extension tubes at the back of the camera to maximize IC):

+ 138HR: Tack sharp edge to edge in horizontal shift (sensor in horizontal position) 35mm left and right -> i.e. this lens is made for the Pano
+ 90HR: Also tack sharp edge to edge, almost the same as the 138HR, although the 138mm is a bit sharper in my view
+ 70HR: IC "ends" somewhere between 30 and 35mm. I'd say it is still perfectly useable in terms of sharpness somewhere between 25 and 30mm, which also yields immense room for shifting (and also not a problem for hex stitches in vertical sensor format where you cut out the extreme sides of the 35mm stitch portion anyways when going to say 4x5 aspect ratio)
+ The new shift mechanism is amazing -> fast and repeatable, meaning you can prepare your LCC library beforehand

The main gripe I have with the camera is that it only has 10mm rise; in my view, the allure of this system is be to create extreme stitches with the 70-90-138 lenses and having more rise would therefore be optimal. Essentially the Pano shows that there is shifting headroom especially with these focal longer lengths which is really interesting for high-res landscapes, etc.

This said, I think the most interesting scenario is to do 6 part stitches with the 90 / 138 HR whereby the sensor is in vertical position (three shots with 10mm rise, 3 shots with 10mm fall), utilizing the full 20mm rise/fall. The vertical orientation of the sensor mitigates the meagre 10mm rise to some extent in this scenario.

From there you can create nice 4x5 or 3x2 crops out of the stitch with markedly higher resolution and also a different look than when using the resulting effective focal length as a one shot. Meaning you can get quite wide with the 90HR in 3:2 in a hex stitch but with a different aesthetic (ie less distortion at the edges) than with straight up a 32HR / 40HR. The 10mm rise will limit the sky part, but one could also just barely tilt the camera up and then correct everything in post with auto align given there's more room for cropping.

In my view therefore the main use case is Pano + 90/138HR with 70HR as bonus option. This camera screams for the 138mm so to say.

All things considered, the Alpa XY still remains the king of stitching, but this is a very good and more compact alternative. The XY allows you to do crazy things such as with the 138mm go 45mm left and right with sensor in vertical position and then going 25mm up and down on top. The XY is built symmetrically which is why you could just flip it around with two stitching adapters to get the 45mm left and right. I suppose only the 138mm supports this or close to these movements.

Architectural and general purpose photographers will I suppose benefit from the higher inherent flexibility of a Plus on the rise side + compactness, but then again one could debate that the 32, 40, 50 HR lenses aren't that good beyond 10mm rise anyways ... I guess it also comes down to size and price then as the Plus is markedly more compact and cheaper.

Below a GIF of the shift mechanism in action - this makes the camera very enjoyable and quick to use and I think it will be a joy to use for someone already accustomed to Alpa cameras and who is into stitching.

On the stitching ... one important consideration: although the Pano makes creating Panos easy, technique is still very important; my Cube is currently in revision, so I had to resort to a smaller head which was not as sturdy. When you aren't careful while quickly shifting the sensor around (shifting is quick with Pano) you might move the tripod head a tiny bit which might lead to stitching errors. So a very sturdy tripod and a very good head are imperative to exploit this system on top of taking care while executing the stitch.

Which leads into final aspect worth mentioning in my view which is that the 138mm with the Pano is an impressive setup, ie also quite heavy and I would definitely only use this system with a neck strap given one is handling 70k in the field. Because of the heaviness of it all it requires careful working in the field, similar to when you are setting up a large format camera with a very heavy lens (eg 210 SS XL). Camera insurance recommended, I suppose and the need for a sturdy tripod + head make it expectedly heavier to lug around than say a mid-sized tripod with a small Arca leveler and the Plus ... ie what I want to say is that it is a totally different beast than the smaller Alpa bodies with the shorter focal lengths. A Plus with a 60XL or 43XL is significantly more compact, for example, than a Pano and a 138mm at the front meaning that it is also a question of logistics a bit, meaning it is say one thing to be content with a Plus and eg a compact 40/70HR and then quickly changing locations vs. pulling out the Pano with the big guns on a super sturdy support system and then storing everything in an oversized backpack / peli case.

... which in the end means there's a case for both ... a Pano for the special tasks and the Plus for the "standard" assignments. It definitely made me smile to create these super fast stitch moves!


Best
Paul
 
Last edited:

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Ok so I tested the Pano a bit here with regard to movements (you need to add the respective required extension tubes at the back of the camera to maximize IC):

+ 138HR: Tack sharp edge to edge in horizontal shift (sensor in horizontal position) 35mm left and right -> i.e. this lens is made for the Pano
+ 90HR: Also tack sharp edge to edge, almost the same as the 138HR, although the 138mm is a bit sharper in my view
+ 70HR: IC "ends" somewhere between 30 and 35mm. I'd say it is still perfectly useable in terms of sharpness somewhere between 25 and 30mm, which also yields immense room for shifting (and also not a problem for hex stitches in vertical sensor format where you cut out the extreme sides of the 35mm stitch portion anyways when going to say 4x5 aspect ratio)
+ The new shift mechanism is amazing -> fast and repeatable, meaning you can prepare your LCC library beforehand

The main gripe I have with the camera is that it only has 10mm rise; in my view, the allure of this system is be to create extreme stitches with the 70-90-138 lenses and having more rise would therefore be optimal. Essentially the Pano shows that there is shifting headroom especially with these focal longer lengths which is really interesting for high-res landscapes, etc.

This said, I think the most interesting scenario is to do 6 part stitches with the 90 / 138 HR whereby the sensor is in vertical position (three shots with 10mm rise, 3 shots with 10mm fall), utilizing the full 20mm rise/fall. The vertical orientation of the sensor mitigates the meagre 10mm rise to some extent in this scenario.

From there you can create nice 4x5 or 3x2 crops out of the stitch with markedly higher resolution and also a different look than when using the resulting effective focal length as a one shot. Meaning you can get quite wide with the 90HR in 3:2 in a hex stitch but with a different aesthetic (ie less distortion at the edges) than with straight up a 32HR / 40HR. The 10mm rise will limit the sky part, but one could also just barely tilt the camera up and then correct everything in post with auto align given there's more room for cropping.

In my view therefore the main use case is Pano + 90/138HR with 70HR as bonus option. This camera screams for the 138mm so to say.

All things considered, the Alpa XY still remains the king of stitching, but this is a very good and more compact alternative. The XY allows you to do crazy things such as with the 138mm go 45mm left and right with sensor in vertical position and then going 25mm up and down on top. The XY is built symmetrically which is why you could just flip it around with two stitching adapters to get the 45mm left and right. I suppose only the 138mm supports this or close to these movements.

Architectural and general purpose photographers will I suppose benefit from the higher inherent flexibility of a Plus on the rise side + compactness, but then again one could debate that the 32, 40, 50 HR lenses aren't that good beyond 10mm rise anyways ... I guess it also comes down to size and price then as the Plus is markedly more compact and cheaper.

Below a GIF of the shift mechanism in action - this makes the camera very enjoyable and quick to use and I think it will be a joy to use for someone already accustomed to Alpa cameras and who is into stitching.

On the stitching ... one important consideration: although the Pano makes creating Panos easy, technique is still very important; my Cube is currently in revision, so I had to resort to a smaller head which was not as sturdy. When you aren't careful while quickly shifting the sensor around (shifting is quick with Pano) you might move the tripod head a tiny bit which might lead to stitching errors. So a very sturdy tripod and a very good head are imperative to exploit this system on top of taking care while executing the stitch.

Which leads into final aspect worth mentioning in my view which is that the 138mm with the Pano is an impressive setup, ie also quite heavy and I would definitely only use this system with a neck strap given one is handling 70k in the field. Because of the heaviness of it all it requires careful working in the field, similar to when you are setting up a large format camera with a very heavy lens (eg 210 SS XL). Camera insurance recommended, I suppose and the need for a sturdy tripod + head make it expectedly heavier to lug around than say a mid-sized tripod with a small Arca leveler and the Plus ... ie what I want to say is that it is a totally different beast than the smaller Alpa bodies with the shorter focal lengths. A Plus with a 60XL or 43XL is significantly more compact, for example, than a Pano and a 138mm at the front meaning that it is also a question of logistics a bit, meaning it is say one thing to be content with a Plus and eg a compact 40/70HR and then quickly changing locations vs. pulling out the Pano with the big guns on a super sturdy support system and then storing everything in an oversized backpack / peli case.

... which in the end means there's a case for both ... a Pano for the special tasks and the Plus for the "standard" assignments. It definitely made me smile to create these super fast stitch moves!


Best
Paul
Just a thought but why wouldn't you shoot with the back in portrait mode? Coverage would be better plus potentially far higher overall resolution.

Btw, the Pano does have me reconsidering my STC/Max combo for landscape use. The Alpa 12 Pano might be the ideal tool for a single body. Remember, you don't need to use the full range all the time. Heck, you could leverage the pano for extreme rise/fall if needed too by flipping the body.

That said, if you need a Max, Plus or an XY for more extreme movements, well, you need those cameras.

Damn you, Alpa!!!
 
Last edited:

dchew

Well-known member
I must admit I was pretty "Meh" about the Pano until reading this thread and particularly Paul's contributions. I will now ban myself from this thread. Gotta focus on 100s system for my upcoming trip. I cannot afford these distractions!!
:oops:

Dave
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Just a thought but why wouldn't you shoot with the back in portrait mode? Coverage would be better plus potentially far higher overall resolution.

Btw, the Pano does have me reconsidering my STC/Max combo for landscape use. The Alpa 12 Pano might be the ideal tool for a single body. Remember, you don't need to use the full range all the time. Heck, you could leverage the pano for extreme rise/fall if needed too by flipping the body.

That said, if you need a Max, Plus or an XY for more extreme movements, well, you need those cameras.

Damn you, Alpa!!!
Hi Graham

I meant portrait mode when talking about vertical orientation :) This effectively gives you an additional 14mm of "aspect ratio balancing" vs. the other side given the P1 sensor is 54x40. This then helps in avoiding the extreme Pano format as this effectively makes the Pano a camera that can shift a 40x40mm sensor equivalent 35mm left and right and 24mm up and down ... which makes it possible to easily crop into 5x4 or 3x2 without too much loss ... in effect, the max theoretical sensor size in portrait mode is: 74mm x 105mm which is an aspect ratio 3.7 / 5.25 ... shy of 4x5!

I agree that the Pano can be a nifty one size fits all solution if you stitch in portrait mode and don't mind that it is a bit bigger. I personally would consider a Max and Pano to be ideal. The Max because it gives you a bit more flexibility (you can also put a stitch adapter on both sides which then would allow you to go 25 left and right and 18 up and down plus the Pano for the scenarios with the 90 / 138mm.

I also tested the 138mm loaner on my XY today. I see that it goes up to 40mm in terms of IC ... the reason why you'd want to still keep an XY is because it is even more sturdy and allows for maximum shift which can be a consideration as long as you don't mind carrying around a very heavy camera.

I particularly liked the repeatable and speedy shift mechanism as it allows you to create your LCC library at say f8 ... I think it is not that easy to convey online how nice it feels as the machining is so precise that the back element shifts very quickly one end to the other and with the thumb on the bottom left you "control" when the travelling stops. With a bit of practice it is super quick, makes you almost miss a shutter release ...

Best
Paul
 
Last edited:

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I must admit I was pretty "Meh" about the Pano until reading this thread and particularly Paul's contributions. I will now ban myself from this thread. Gotta focus on 100s system for my upcoming trip. I cannot afford these distractions!!
:oops:

Dave
Wasn't there a quote somewhere around Dante's inferno? :)
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Got to check out the Pano last week briefly thanks to Steve H. It might have been a v1 and not the current one, but I'm not sure if there are any differences between the two.

+1 to Paul's comments on the shift mechanism. It is awesome....hats off to Alpa for that. Leaves me wondering if they'll update any of the existing bodies with it?

Nice to see Alpa expanding their toolbox!
 

cuida1991

Active member
Ok so I tested the Pano a bit here with regard to movements (you need to add the respective required extension tubes at the back of the camera to maximize IC):

+ 138HR: Tack sharp edge to edge in horizontal shift (sensor in horizontal position) 35mm left and right -> i.e. this lens is made for the Pano
+ 90HR: Also tack sharp edge to edge, almost the same as the 138HR, although the 138mm is a bit sharper in my view
+ 70HR: IC "ends" somewhere between 30 and 35mm. I'd say it is still perfectly useable in terms of sharpness somewhere between 25 and 30mm, which also yields immense room for shifting (and also not a problem for hex stitches in vertical sensor format where you cut out the extreme sides of the 35mm stitch portion anyways when going to say 4x5 aspect ratio)
+ The new shift mechanism is amazing -> fast and repeatable, meaning you can prepare your LCC library beforehand

The main gripe I have with the camera is that it only has 10mm rise; in my view, the allure of this system is be to create extreme stitches with the 70-90-138 lenses and having more rise would therefore be optimal. Essentially the Pano shows that there is shifting headroom especially with these focal longer lengths which is really interesting for high-res landscapes, etc.

This said, I think the most interesting scenario is to do 6 part stitches with the 90 / 138 HR whereby the sensor is in vertical position (three shots with 10mm rise, 3 shots with 10mm fall), utilizing the full 20mm rise/fall. The vertical orientation of the sensor mitigates the meagre 10mm rise to some extent in this scenario.

From there you can create nice 4x5 or 3x2 crops out of the stitch with markedly higher resolution and also a different look than when using the resulting effective focal length as a one shot. Meaning you can get quite wide with the 90HR in 3:2 in a hex stitch but with a different aesthetic (ie less distortion at the edges) than with straight up a 32HR / 40HR. The 10mm rise will limit the sky part, but one could also just barely tilt the camera up and then correct everything in post with auto align given there's more room for cropping.

In my view therefore the main use case is Pano + 90/138HR with 70HR as bonus option. This camera screams for the 138mm so to say.

All things considered, the Alpa XY still remains the king of stitching, but this is a very good and more compact alternative. The XY allows you to do crazy things such as with the 138mm go 45mm left and right with sensor in vertical position and then going 25mm up and down on top. The XY is built symmetrically which is why you could just flip it around with two stitching adapters to get the 45mm left and right. I suppose only the 138mm supports this or close to these movements.

Architectural and general purpose photographers will I suppose benefit from the higher inherent flexibility of a Plus on the rise side + compactness, but then again one could debate that the 32, 40, 50 HR lenses aren't that good beyond 10mm rise anyways ... I guess it also comes down to size and price then as the Plus is markedly more compact and cheaper.

Below a GIF of the shift mechanism in action - this makes the camera very enjoyable and quick to use and I think it will be a joy to use for someone already accustomed to Alpa cameras and who is into stitching.

On the stitching ... one important consideration: although the Pano makes creating Panos easy, technique is still very important; my Cube is currently in revision, so I had to resort to a smaller head which was not as sturdy. When you aren't careful while quickly shifting the sensor around (shifting is quick with Pano) you might move the tripod head a tiny bit which might lead to stitching errors. So a very sturdy tripod and a very good head are imperative to exploit this system on top of taking care while executing the stitch.

Which leads into final aspect worth mentioning in my view which is that the 138mm with the Pano is an impressive setup, ie also quite heavy and I would definitely only use this system with a neck strap given one is handling 70k in the field. Because of the heaviness of it all it requires careful working in the field, similar to when you are setting up a large format camera with a very heavy lens (eg 210 SS XL). Camera insurance recommended, I suppose and the need for a sturdy tripod + head make it expectedly heavier to lug around than say a mid-sized tripod with a small Arca leveler and the Plus ... ie what I want to say is that it is a totally different beast than the smaller Alpa bodies with the shorter focal lengths. A Plus with a 60XL or 43XL is significantly more compact, for example, than a Pano and a 138mm at the front meaning that it is also a question of logistics a bit, meaning it is say one thing to be content with a Plus and eg a compact 40/70HR and then quickly changing locations vs. pulling out the Pano with the big guns on a super sturdy support system and then storing everything in an oversized backpack / peli case.

... which in the end means there's a case for both ... a Pano for the special tasks and the Plus for the "standard" assignments. It definitely made me smile to create these super fast stitch moves!


Best
Paul
Hello Paul,
What do you mean by " The XY is built symmetrically which is why you could just flip it around with two stitching adapters to get the 45mm left and right"?
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Hello Paul,
What do you mean by " The XY is built symmetrically which is why you could just flip it around with two stitching adapters to get the 45mm left and right"?
Hi Cuida

On the left and right side of the frame there is a hole for an arca swiss mount at the exact same position. XY has 45mm rise and 25mm fall - if you use the XY in a horizontal position you can shift 45mm left / right if you flip the camera 180 degrees after you are done with the first stitch to the extreme of 45mm on either side to then do it on the other side (you need two arca swiss mounts attached); meanwhile you benefit from 25mm rise and fall.

Effectively, if you use the sensor in portrait mode you can shift 45mm left and right and 25 + 14mm up and down if you think of the sensor as a 40mm x 40mm square. This is 10mm more on each side than with the Pano and 15mm more up and down vs. the Pano ... so for ultimate resolution and flat plane stitching nothing beats an XY with an 138mm ...

The XY is to my knowledge short of bellows cameras the most precise extreme flat plane stitching device in existence. Downside of it is that it is very heavy and rather unwieldy in the field.

Best
Paul
 
Last edited:

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Another point worth mentioning is that with the Alpa finder app on the iPhone you can create custom virtual sensors representing the maximum stitch dimensions you like and then you can select the 138, 90, 70 as focal lengths which will then be an excellent representation of the stitched end result you can achieve with quad / hex stitches (just create different virtual sensors with the app for each stitch case) ... I think this is a very effective way of working because you walk around with the iPhone and the Pano in the backpack and once you see a composition you like you set your system up.
 

doccdiamond

Member
I must admit I was pretty "Meh" about the Pano until reading this thread and particularly Paul's contributions. I will now ban myself from this thread. Gotta focus on 100s system for my upcoming trip. I cannot afford these distractions!!
:oops:

Dave
:) fully agree -at the beginning I thought it is not of any interest for me. Continuing to follow the discussions I might have to call the ALPA's for a trial...
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Got to check out the Pano last week briefly thanks to Steve H. It might have been a v1 and not the current one, but I'm not sure if there are any differences between the two.

+1 to Paul's comments on the shift mechanism. It is awesome....hats off to Alpa for that. Leaves me wondering if they'll update any of the existing bodies with it?

Nice to see Alpa expanding their toolbox!
I think for now it is a made to order item and not part of the "permanent collection" so to say; it is my understanding that Alpa commissioned this design a few years ago for a limited circle of users asking for years for such a camera and since then it was always the idea to potentially do another limited run if demand is high enough ... which seems to be the case atm but not sure ... I certainly also appreciate an evolution of their portfolio as it has been many years since I bought the Alpa Max and later the XY ...!
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
:) fully agree -at the beginning I thought it is not of any interest for me. Continuing to follow the discussions I might have to call the ALPA's for a trial...
Definitely try it out, I called them and they borrowed me theirs for a weekend ... it definitely was helpful to see what is possible with the longer lenses first hand and especially to experience the speed at which one can operate the system with the new mechanism ...
 

doccdiamond

Member
Definitely try it out, I called them and they borrowed me theirs for a weekend ... it definitely was helpful to see what is possible with the longer lenses first hand and especially to experience the speed at which one can operate the system with the new mechanism ...
Will follow your advice 😉

Happy that at ALPA HQ after the takeover of the new owner they are gaining speed in certain directions…
 
Top