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Please convince me to buy (or not) a GFX 100s

tsjanik

Well-known member
The 100s is on sale again, and I must admit to the temptation. I currently use a 50R as my main camera, but I also have 645Z and most of the Pentax lenses from 25mm to 600mm. I love the Pentax with the exception of its weight and front shutter vibrations and simply will not part with it. I appreciate the 50r's smaller size and mass but find the handling, menus, controls, etc. much less convenient than those of the Pentax. The largest I print is 24x32, so 50MP is sufficient. So why the interest in the 100s - IBIS and the ability to crop.
I would appreciate any thoughts. I fear I am simply suffering from Gear Acquisition Syndrome.
Tom
 

Maxx9photo

Active member
The curiosity will always bug you! So just get it! If you don’t like you can always sell it again.
I know I always have GAS for photography equipment that I have not tried before and I’ve always managed to sell what I think and feel not suitable for my style.
 
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rdeloe

Well-known member
I just made the transition from a 50R to a 100S. I was not unhappy with the 50R, but after a lot of shooting with the 100S am glad I made the change. I am keeping the 50R as a backup. Here are some thoughts:

Don't get a 100S for the increased resolution as your main reason. There are twice as many pixels, but not double the resolution. I didn't have any issues with the resolution of the 50R. However, I will say that I now realize that much of the appearance of sharpness of the 50R relative to the 100S is the microlenses, perhaps creating stronger local contrast and the appearance of sharpness. There's more actual detail in the 100S images if that matters, but also lower local contrast in RAW files straight out of the camera.

Do get a 100S if the sum of the following benefits is worth it for you:
  • Like Jim said, the aliasing is dramatically less. There's a lot of aliasing in 50R files. It didn't bother me a lot before I got the 100S because I didn't have a baseline. Now that I've seen what the same subject looks like with the 100S and the 50R, I see the aliasing much more.
  • Are you using camera movements? The BSI sensor in the 100S makes a huge difference. Most of the lenses I use on my digital view camera setup were fine on the 50R, but my Mamiya N 43mm f/4.5 L had slight colour shifts even unshifted, and noticeable colour shifts at 5mm of shift. Like the aliasing, I didn't take note of it as much with the 50R before I got the 100S. Now that I've seen how the lens does on the 100S, I realize that there was enough colour shift on the 50R to affect the image.
  • You would like to use your camera off tripod or monopod. The IBIS in the 100S is transformative if you shoot hand held with a 50R. I could not reliably use my 50R without a tripod. Some people say they can. I was never happy. You can easily shoot handheld with the 100S.
  • The grip on the 100S makes it much easier and more comfortable to hold than a 50R. It's not even close. Add-on grips on the 50R are a poor substitute. Side note: the 50R with its diminutive grip was the only GFX I could use on my Toyo VX23D, but my F-Universalis can take the big grips so the plus of the 50R grip became a minus for me.
  • The screen flipping up in portrait mode on the 100S is a major improvement for how I use the camera. I use that function all the time. It's a huge benefit to me.
  • I don't miss the dials on the 50R as much as I thought I would. I have set up the buttons and wheels in a way that makes perfect sense to me. I also use the submonitor a lot; it's extremely handy. After a few outings, I am now completely fluid with the 100S. I don't even think about where things are.
Finally, shutter shock was never a problem with the 50R, but it's something I have to deal with using a 100S. The problem is the same on a 50S II according to a colleague of mine who has one. When I'm using the 100S on my Arca-Swiss F-Universalis, I must use ES (electronic shutter). Electronic front curtain shutter (EF) degrades image quality with every lens I use when I'm shooting under 1/100th of a second; I'm not sure where the safe zone is at slower speeds, but conservatively let's say 1 second. Mechanical shutter is unusable on the 100S mounted to my F-Universalis. Hand held with IBIS, EF is fine with the lenses I use (GF 35-70 and various adapted). EF on a tripod with my GF 35-70 and with my adapted lenses in a simple adapter seems OK (but ES is still better). Jim has posted test results for longer native lenses that suggest EF is still degrading image quality. Again, I never had to think about the shutter with the 50R; I put it in EF and never moved it from that setting.

I don't know if you use adapted lenses. Some people insist that only native GF lenses are up to the task on the 100S or 100. As a blanket statement, I think that's nonsense. But your results may vary.

Good luck with your decision. I thought long and hard about mine, and have no regrets.
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I had the GFX 100. I liked the balance, but the wheels were too sensitive to pressure. In the end, I could never get used to the color, and the lenses, with a few wonderful exceptions, left me cold. But that's all personal preference. The facts are well listed above. Only you can tell whether or not you like the camera.
 
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rdeloe

Well-known member
As I listen to the fans howl on my Dell XPS desktop, and becoming increasingly frustrated as Lightroom lags and hangs as I edit files, I have one more consideration for the OP: you best budget for a faster computer if the one you're using is older. Mine was a bit sluggish at times with GFX 50R files. It's very tedious now to work on 100S files, especially when they have a lot of masks.

I just ordered a new computer...
 
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buildbot

Well-known member
As I listen to the fans howl on my Dell XPS desktop, and becoming increasingly frustrated as Lightroom lags and hangs as I edit files, I have one more consideration for the OP: you best budget for a faster computer if the one you're using is older. Mine was a bit sluggish at times with GFX 50R files. It's very tedious now to work on 100S files, especially when they have a lot of masks.

I just ordered a new computer...
Tangential, but if a Mac is acceptable, the new M1/M2 processors have 0 issue working with IQ3 100MP files or really anything else I throw at it.

GFX 50s files really felt somewhat crunchy to me, likely due to the different microlens design as others have mentioned. Possibly a lower fill factor than the other IMX161 sensors out there? I have not had the pleasure of using the GFX 100s.

Hot take - image stabilization seems to be more of a downside than an upside. More fragile, and that annoying shutter shock. Meanwhile, if you are a moderately insane like me and take your XF places and handhold it at 1/60th with a 210mm, the camera itself is heavy enough that I cannot see visible shutter shock at 60MP when braced well against one's body. Applying techniques from target shooting like breathing out slowly and squeezing vs. pressing sharply works very well too.
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
I have heard many times that Macs with M2 processors are excellent for image processing in Lightroom. Alas, I just don't enjoy the Mac OS. I used it on a MacBook I used to use for demonstrations, so it's not like I have no experience. I'm sure if I had to, I'd become fluid eventually, but I've lost the enthusiasm I used to have for learning new computers.

For someone who shoots handheld a lot, IBIS on the 100S is excellent. I shoot handheld very rarely with GFX, so for me it's not a big plus, and the fact that it's clearly the source of the shutter shock moves it into the minus category. Oh well, there's no perfect camera.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
On IBIS, I find it essential for magnified manual focus (hand held, of course). The X2D shutter is either electronic or in the lens, so shock isn’t an issue. Never noticed it on the GFX 100
 

JimKasson

Well-known member
Hot take - image stabilization seems to be more of a downside than an upside. More fragile, and that annoying shutter shock.
If you're handholding and using GF lenses or lenses adapted with a tube adapter, then the GFX 100S shutter shock with GF lenses is not a problem using EFCS.
 
I had the GFX 100. I liked the balance, but the wheels were too sensitive to pressure. In the end, I could never get used to the color, and the lenses, with a few wonderful exceptions, left me cold. But that's all personal preference. The facts are well listed above. Only you can tell whether or not you like the camera.
I have the GFX100S, it’s slightly a love-hate relationship for me, I find the files take quite a lot of work for me to land where I want them to; it might just be a learning curve in my instance. I think compared to RAW files from the Leica M / Leica S / Hasselblad X that the GFX100 has quite a bit of contrast built into the mid-tones and are less open in the shadows, and I tend to want to strip that out to make the rendering less “harsh / clinical” and hence softer. I’ve certainly got prints I’m very pleased with, but I personally wish the starting point was easier for me with the GFX RAWs. I expect others may have the opposite view. Steve’s description of the X2D being least “digital” piqued my interest though! …….
Source: https://www.captureintegration.com/upgrading-to-hasselblad-x2d-what-you-need-to-know/
Given your experience of both the GFX100 and X2D, I'd be interested to know if you also think the X2D has a less digital rendering (and do you reckon one could match the GFX files to that pleasing X2D look, or is there something inherent about the GFX sensor/lens combo that makes that tricky?)
 
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drevil

Well-known member
Staff member
i left the entire GFX system and went back to my C645 with a P65+ and just LOVE it, ultimate goal would be to reacquire a IQ180 again at some point.
i kinda have an issue with the sony sensors i guess.

edit
thats an advice against it ;)
 

JimKasson

Well-known member
I think compared to RAW files from the Leica M / Leica S / Hasselblad X that the GFX100 has quite a bit of contrast built into the mid-tones and are less open in the shadows, and I tend to want to strip that out to make the rendering less “harsh / clinical” and hence softer.
The GFX 100x and X2D 100C use the same sensor and have the same raw linearity. I think you're talking about raw development.

 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I have the GFX100S, it’s slightly a love-hate relationship for me, I find the files take quite a lot of work for me to land where I want them to; it might just be a learning curve in my instance. I think compared to RAW files from the Leica M / Leica S / Hasselblad X that the GFX100 has quite a bit of contrast built into the mid-tones and are less open in the shadows, and I tend to want to strip that out to make the rendering less “harsh / clinical” and hence softer. I’ve certainly got prints I’m very pleased with, but I personally wish the starting point was easier for me with the GFX RAWs. I expect others may have the opposite view. Steve’s description of the X2D being least “digital” piqued my interest though! …….
Source: https://www.captureintegration.com/upgrading-to-hasselblad-x2d-what-you-need-to-know/
Given your experience of both the GFX100 and X2D, I'd be interested to know if you also think the X2D has a less digital rendering (and do you reckon one could match the GFX files to that pleasing X2D look, or is there something inherent about the GFX sensor/lens combo that makes that tricky?)
It's amazing how much small differences in "default" parameters affect our first impressions. I agree about the difficulty of getting GFX images to where I wanted them, but I'm a long time Leica S user, and their starting places are, as you say, quite different. The X2D files come out quite close to the S files. Oddly, the Hassy comes with MORE default sharpening than the S, and so I changed the LR profile to turn it completely off. I usually end up turning some of it back on, but that would be after everything else.

I never saw a "digital" look. I felt strongly a CCD vs CMOS look, but the recent MF cameras seem to have backed off the need to show us every one of those 15 stops of DR on the default output and they look better theses days. I don't believe that any of these differences are primarily technological, but rather the decisions that the manufacturers make in deciding on a final look. When digital audio first appeared, record companies produced horrible sounding discs that showed off the possibilities of the new medium. After a few years, they started to care about the nice sound again.

tl;dr Yes, I find the X2D files much easier to work with than the GFX and don't have to do much with them to get images I like.
 

anyone

Well-known member
My observations with the GFX100s (vs GFX50r) files are:
  • less perceived sharpness
  • flat look without any adjustments
However also:
  • a lot of detail in the shadows
  • lots of detail in general
My strategy:
  • search a point in the image that I find needs to be darker - adjust curve accordingly
  • find a point close by that should be lighter - adjust curve accordingly
This, together with sharpening, helps against the "flat look" of the files.

When it comes to colours, that is a very subjective matter. I generally tend to dial down the greens.

But yeah, I agree that there are cameras out there with an 'easier starting point'.
 
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tsjanik

Well-known member
Thanks for all the comments that also included answers to questions I hadn't thought to ask. I was unaware of the shutter vibrations in the 100s; an aspect problematic with the 645Z and one of the reasons I shifted to the 50r. I am reassured that EFSC is effective handheld, but not that tripod use is a problem, is that a consequence of IBIS?
Most answers to buy were affirmative, in contrast to my wife's.
 

JimKasson

Well-known member
I am reassured that EFSC is effective handheld. Is that also true for tripod use as well?
EFCS is effective on a tripod with GF lenses shorter than 250mm. The sharpness deterioration with the GF 250 is minimal, but if you can, use ES instead of EFCS for the GF 250, iwth and without the Fuji TC.

 

Shashin

Well-known member
The question I ask myself now, if I did not know about X (X = 100S), would I be dissatisfied with what I have or be unable to solve a particular problem? The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, at least until you purchase the property. (And I am still using my Pentax 645D for the same reason: I get great satisfaction in using that camera.)

For me, simply getting "more" is not actually solving a problem.

(WARNING: Dante's forum is simply full of enablers and pushers. Trust no one. And I mean that in the nicest possible way...)
 
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