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Leica R looking forward

LCT

Member
...If Leica abandons current R users, it'll be a whole new ball game...
Sure but this would be hardly compatible with Kauffmann's statement according to which the new R "shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers".
Or he has a very special sense of humour. :bugeyes:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sure but this would be hardly compatible with Kauffmann's statement according to which the new R "shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers".
Or he has a very special sense of humour. :bugeyes:
From his lips to God's ears.

We'll see. I guess it depends on the definition of "our customers".
 

fotografz

Well-known member
"...looks like that 31 or 39 megapixel puppy in blad guise is next on my switch into agenda."

I haven't regretted that decision yet. They keep improving the system, with many improvements coming from firmware and soft ware upgrades. As they tighten down Phocus it'll become much more in keeping with my needs. I have the 31 and 39 which I use with both Fuji/Blad glass 28 to 300mm and all my Zeiss 500 series lenses fisheye to 350 ... and use both backs on a Rollei Xact-II with Digitar view lenses 28 to 120 macro. Frankly, there is little I cannot accomplish with this tightened down kit. Maybe add an ALPA someday in future for travel/persoanl W/A work with the 39 meg back.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I bet the owners are so pissed thatthey listened to boofheads :sleep006: and made the DMR a compromised less than full frame camera in order to be able to use existing R bodies and clear that inventory...- what a stoopid error that was - imagine how many sales they would have made with a full framed Imacon chip hmmm?

so I guess I am not that impressed with Leica's ability to make teh right decisions..again with the M8 and the IR issues etc..again less than full frame:thumbdown:

yeah yeah teh files are great - but man - I want my glass to work liek it was DESIGNED to work...:wtf:

*sigh...get a grip Petey.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I am getting more and more worried about the status of the R system. Steven Lee was gung ho for the system, but with his ignominious departure, I am not sure that Leica will continue work on an R10...at least not before an M9. The R system is a hard sell. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but even I, a committed R system user, can't really afford most of the lenses. I just realized that I bought every single lens and body used. I bought the DMR new, but all the bodies and lenses used. It is no wonder with the R lens pricing the way it is. I was looking at B&H, and there are only 3 R system lenses under 2000 dollars -- the 50/2, 35-70/4 and 24/2.8. The 24mm is a Minolta design, so that is only 2. On the other hand, the 15mm is listed at 8995! That's 7000 dollars more than the Canon 14mm f/2.8. How many people need a 15mm lens so good that they are willing to pay 7000 dollars more for a bit more performance over their rival? I remember talking to Tony Rose a while ago and he said that he had not sold an R lens in year...

Let's put together a reasonable guess on the outlay of an R10, given they continue using the current lenses.
R10 body -- let's say 8000, reasonable given that the DMR started at 5000, and the bodies around 3000.
19mm f/2.8 -- 4495
28-90mm f/2.8-4.5 -- 4495
100mm f/2.8 APO Macro -- 4295
180mm f/2.8 APO -- 4995.
50mm f/1.4 -- 3195.
Total: 29,475 at B&H before tax or shipping.
That is just an example, but the point is that very few people can afford to put together an R system, and even fewer can justify spending that when they can spend a lot less and get a very good Canon system, or spend a bit more and get a superb medium format digital system.
Anyway, something has to give.
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Peter: sounds like you have been cooped up recovering for too long - too much time to think - but it does make perfect sense, at least to me.

I. too, am suffering from R anxiety but I do not want to unload anything. I hope to be able to use the R lenses I have on a future R10 (or whatever) but I am also trying to accept the possibility that I can use my DMR and lenses for quite some time and still enjoy them. The quality is superb.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Peter: sounds like you have been cooped up recovering for too long - too much time to think - but it does make perfect sense, at least to me.

I. too, am suffering from R anxiety but I do not want to unload anything. I hope to be able to use the R lenses I have on a future R10 (or whatever) but I am also trying to accept the possibility that I can use my DMR and lenses for quite some time and still enjoy them. The quality is superb.
Amen
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Stuart - I think you make a lot of sense. It is an impossible ask from Leica to price their lenses so much higher than acceptable alternatives. I bought a new 19mm and an 80 lux to compliment my 35-70 and 70-180. have no interest in any other lenses.

The pricing on that 15mm is a joke - it isnt better than the LF alternatives from Schneider and Rodenstock - Leica's prices dont make sense in a lot of their offerings...I woild love to buy into their modular tele system - but man I can get awesome autofocus lenses from Canon and now new offerings from Nikon at half the price ...the difference in quality isnt that much greater ( and arguably not there anyway) for my purposes - but more importantly the purposes of the typical pro sports shooter for example...

If Leica wish to focus entirely on the M camera system - they will die. Doesnt matter how many enthusiasts love the rangefinder - it is just a semi-wide to normal system a snapshooter.

If they dont make R lenses backwardly compatible..wel they are turning their backs on teh installed client base. If they are chasong a new market - that market can only be overlapping with MFDB - and they come up against pro shooters with MF systems - essentially studio gear ..this is a crowded and relatively small space to comepte in against Hasselblad/Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf/Sinar - all targetting the same bunch of product/studio shooters and a tiny bit of fashion.

yeah it makes no sense to turn your back on existing cutomers and installed lens base...but I ask myself - why are they being ambiguous and silent on teh compatibility issue regarding glass?

thats the elephant in the room question.

Pete
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
My guess is that there are four options --
1. They are not locked into body yet, so they don't know if there will be compatibility and don't want to say either way.
2. They have scrapped the R10 and don't want to tell the customers yet so that they can continue to sell their existing lenses.
3. The new R10 has a new mount that is not compatible with the old lenses.
4. They are leery about announcing anything in regards to the R10, having learned their lesson about announcing the DMR and not being able to put it in customers' hands until well over a year after its debut. Not to mention the teething problems of the M8, which was released before it was ready for prime time.

I would lean towards option 2 or 4.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
If they are doing this because of #2 - then the company has no ethics or morals. If it is #4 - thats ok - just say whatever we do whenever we do it..will of course make existing lenses usable.

I lean towards #3 because of deathly silence, with a dash of #1 because I am an optimist.

"faith knocked on Hopes door and no-one answered"
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
#2 is extremely common with all companies. No company's financial managers will let them announce that something has been discontinued while there is a bunch of inventory available. Look at Hasselblad -- they had discontinued the 200 series, but did not tell anyone until they more or less sold out, and then they said, "by the way, no more 200 series", they did it with the Xpan, with the 905 SWC and they are doing it now with V system cameras and lenses.

Didn't Leica do it with the 75/1.4? They came out with the 75/2, presumably stopped making the 75/1.4 and let it sell down, and then a year later or so they announced that it was discontinued. I am not saying they are going to do it with the R system, but it is one of my fears.

I certainly don't want to give the impression that I know insider information or have any idea what is really going on, these are just my thoughts and fears. I do hope that there will be an R10 at photokina, I am just not as optimistic as I once was.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Stuart - we dont pay the Leica 'premiums' to be lied to do we? I have always regretted selling my Xpan - fixed that last week. Ironicaly, the more I think about things - the better I feel about going back to shooting more film - the technology is proven - all I need is to get my act together and order an Imacon - all of a sudden my lenses in all my platforms behave the way they were designed to behave...and I can stop worrying about the next digital improvement or new model - all of which offer increasingly smaller and at the margin improvements...

too much internet chatter about this versus that sometimes - and I ( lately) have been sucked in.

BUT come on HOW DARE THEY NOT TELL US ABOUT OUR LENSES _ HOW DARE THEY!!!!

so nett nett - I am going to focus on shooting what I have and doing MORE chemotherapy :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: via traditional B&W self souped shooting with 35mm especially.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
More in many cases...an H3D-39 is 24,999 at B&H, including the body and 80mm lens. The newer model is more, but the H3DII-31 is 26,999, still less than that Leica kit. Hasselblad lenses are actually cheaper than Leica lenses (most are in the 3000 range, compared to 4500 for Leica), and Mamiya are cheaper still, particularly on the used market. And there are some cheaper medium format digital options like the ZD back and the CFV, which are both actually cheaper than the 15mm Leica lens! But given the choice of a 16-22 MP 35mm sized sensor that will likely be in an R10 versus a 22-39 MP medium format sensor for not much more, it might be hard for some to go with the Leica. As good as the Leica is, at this point it cannot compete with medium format digital, so if they are practically the same outlay, there are problems.

I guess the point is that if 29,500 gets you a Leica digital setup and 5 lenses and the same money gets you an H3D-39 and 2 lenses (such as the 80mm and the 50-110 zoom), which would you take?

Anyway, just some late night ramblings, I am off to bed.
 
P

pascal_meheut

Guest
Has any of you asked the question directly to Stefan Daniel ?
 

PeterA

Well-known member
.... The newer model is more, but the H3DII-31 is 26,999, still less than that Leica kit.<b> Hasselblad lenses are actually cheaper than Leica lenses </b>(most are in the 3000 range, compared to 4500 for Leica), and Mamiya are cheaper still, particularly on the used market. And there are some cheaper medium format digital options like the ZD back and the CFV, which are both actually cheaper than the 15mm Leica lens! But given the choice of a 16-22 MP 35mm sized sensor that will likely be in an R10 versus a 22-39 MP medium format sensor for not much more, it might be hard for some to go with the Leica. As good as the Leica is, at this point it cannot compete with medium format digital, so if they are practically the same outlay, there are problems.

I guess the point is that if 29,500 gets you a Leica digital setup and 5 lenses and the same money gets you an H3D-39 and 2 lenses (such as the 80mm and the 50-110 zoom), which would you take?

Anyway, just some late night ramblings, I am off to bed.
Exactomundo Stuart - exactly so....EXACTLY!!

they are in leica Land - a state of non-sensical irrational arrogance if they think a sensor packed with lil itsy bitsy pixels and claiming lots megabytes is going to compete with the IQ if a sensor nearly 2X the size and 1/4 of the pixel density...with a new range of lenses? at prices higher than MF lenses makes me laugh...:ROTFL: and angry at same time..:cussing:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Stuart - we dont pay the Leica 'premiums' to be lied to do we? I have always regretted selling my Xpan - fixed that last week. Ironicaly, the more I think about things - the better I feel about going back to shooting more film - the technology is proven - all I need is to get my act together and order an Imacon - all of a sudden my lenses in all my platforms behave the way they were designed to behave...and I can stop worrying about the next digital improvement or new model - all of which offer increasingly smaller and at the margin improvements...

too much internet chatter about this versus that sometimes - and I ( lately) have been sucked in.

BUT come on HOW DARE THEY NOT TELL US ABOUT OUR LENSES _ HOW DARE THEY!!!!

so nett nett - I am going to focus on shooting what I have and doing MORE chemotherapy :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: via traditional B&W self souped shooting with 35mm especially.
Peter, so true. If I did not have to have digital for business (just about mandatory for a number of reasons), I sure the heck wouldn't be so deep into "Digi-Oz" ... and paying so much attention to the man behind the curtain.

My nice 203FE and speedy scans from the Imacon 949 would be more than enough. You know, I am in the process of redoing my Wedding Web Site, and about 65% to 70% of the shots I've selected were done on film. That has been a revelation. Don't know why, they just are.
 
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