Ron (Netherlands)
New member
pity
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
New M files available from Jono
- Thread starter glenerrolrd
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
BTW I would love to get impressions on how the new Leica handles compared to the old style with all the new features. That would be interesting to our readers. Be interesting to hear of live view compared to popular DSLR cams with it and how it works in comparison since most of us have live view on our DSLR stuff. I think that would be fun to hear. Just a thought
Ron,
I never said Leica images and the photographers involved have to be praised. I just pointed out the attitude some have, having fun bashing the photographers instead of evaluating the images. I also said this is not unique to Leica butother companies as well.
There were some who did comment on the quality of M output, whether good or bad. I see a few issues with this new camera as well, such as banding, dark spots or dots, color cast etc. I see some have commented on these issues in a mature and civilised way. This kind of mature discussion is useful but what is not corrct is bashing someone's photographic skills. Neither Gaumy nor Jono asked for a critique of their skills. But that is what the majority of internet has commented upon. I just pointed out that this is not a good trend and complemented on the members of this forum not joining the rest of the web world.
Steering the discussion back to the point of this thread, the new M will have lovers and haters, just like any other camera by any manufacturer. I personally feel that seeing the output from the M, so far, is similar of any other CMOS sensor, a bit different from CCD. It is a personal preference, some see it, some don't. If they see the difference, some would prefer it while some would not. Again personal preference. The images from the new M are very good, better in lot of ways than M9, color accuracy seems very good and improved. But color depth and near infrared gamut is inferior to M. Again this is chararacteristic of the CCD vs CMOS. No matter what hardware/software chain you have, this cannot be changed completely. Whether this is significant or not is again individual preference.
Love to hear comments
I never said Leica images and the photographers involved have to be praised. I just pointed out the attitude some have, having fun bashing the photographers instead of evaluating the images. I also said this is not unique to Leica butother companies as well.
There were some who did comment on the quality of M output, whether good or bad. I see a few issues with this new camera as well, such as banding, dark spots or dots, color cast etc. I see some have commented on these issues in a mature and civilised way. This kind of mature discussion is useful but what is not corrct is bashing someone's photographic skills. Neither Gaumy nor Jono asked for a critique of their skills. But that is what the majority of internet has commented upon. I just pointed out that this is not a good trend and complemented on the members of this forum not joining the rest of the web world.
Steering the discussion back to the point of this thread, the new M will have lovers and haters, just like any other camera by any manufacturer. I personally feel that seeing the output from the M, so far, is similar of any other CMOS sensor, a bit different from CCD. It is a personal preference, some see it, some don't. If they see the difference, some would prefer it while some would not. Again personal preference. The images from the new M are very good, better in lot of ways than M9, color accuracy seems very good and improved. But color depth and near infrared gamut is inferior to M. Again this is chararacteristic of the CCD vs CMOS. No matter what hardware/software chain you have, this cannot be changed completely. Whether this is significant or not is again individual preference.
Love to hear comments
Hosermage
Active member
Hi Ron, I don't think anyone disagree that we want an open discussion, and it's easier to do that if it's built on civility while reserve any final judgement and the use of superlatives. I think Jono's original post did just that, he presented both good and bad points on the camera and let the files speak for themselves.
To me, I'm glad some of the shots were just-around-the-house shots because god knows how many of those I've taken from the M9 and how challenging it has been to process them. Therefore, it has been useful to me to take a stab at processing the released DNGs and get a feel of what I could experience if I bought the new M.
Some people seems a bit too quick to write-off the new M and cancel their pre-orders, don't you think? Even myself, as a current M9 user, has a slight bias as I would love to hate the new M. I think my final decision will be based on: what can I do with the new M that I can't do with M9? Whether or not the amount of improvement is worth the cost to me? I guess only I can answer that, and to answer these questions I'd welcome any and all samples good and bad. Actually, I wish I can see more bad shots to see how salvageable they are since it's closer to my own workflow
To me, I'm glad some of the shots were just-around-the-house shots because god knows how many of those I've taken from the M9 and how challenging it has been to process them. Therefore, it has been useful to me to take a stab at processing the released DNGs and get a feel of what I could experience if I bought the new M.
Some people seems a bit too quick to write-off the new M and cancel their pre-orders, don't you think? Even myself, as a current M9 user, has a slight bias as I would love to hate the new M. I think my final decision will be based on: what can I do with the new M that I can't do with M9? Whether or not the amount of improvement is worth the cost to me? I guess only I can answer that, and to answer these questions I'd welcome any and all samples good and bad. Actually, I wish I can see more bad shots to see how salvageable they are since it's closer to my own workflow
Ron (Netherlands)
New member
Sven and David, I appreciate your open minded responses. Hope the rest of this thread will go on like these.
Shashin
Well-known member
It was a joke--hence the following post. I actually agree with you.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
The intention of the proof of performance DNG s is to provide potential buyers (hopefully) with an opportunity to judge for themselves . How can this context be so easily tossed away to justify almost any POV ? Whats fair to expect?
The files selected should show how the new camera handles a need for a large dynamic range ,the ability to record fine detail , noise limitations in high ISO etc (not a complete list ). It is in this context that comments are fair game . I thought Jono and Chris did a good job of showing representative samples .
Leica has such great products (eventually) that they get a free pass on "never ever getting anything done on time " . No knock on Jono or Chris but a pro with good light could shoot all those proofs in a day . So they have Jono out months before ...last fall ? Seems like a fair comment that Leica s new release process is lacking . Wait 9 months for Leica to get it right ? Seriously can anyone that bought an M8,M9 or S2 at first release support that Leica got it right ? The Leica SPa trip joke isn t funny if you need the gear .
Expecting a professional set of DNG s to evaluate a buying decision sure seems reasonable to me . If you didn t order back last summer (no not at the release date ) you wouldn t see you camera (in most cases ) until summer . A 9 month wait for most orders . This is new low in performance by the team that can t stop patting themselves on the back (not Jono/Chris ) .
IMO ...the DNG s are decent to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the new M . They will get better as Adobe finishes the profiles , calibration and presets get refined . However, The files are very finished looking compared to the M9 or S2 at introduction . This means that the embedded profile clearly has produced the color to a desired profile . In normal daylight I found the WB and most of the other processing unnecessary . This is similar to the DMR which never did get an Adobe profile (correct ?) . The maestro processor has been working hard .
Really did anyone expect the files to be crappy ? We know the change from CCD to CMOS is the big story . If you have compared any of the top CMOS systems to CCD you know what to look for :
1.......ISO performance is better with CMOS ..the files hold up as ISO increases and they extend out up to ISO6400 . DR ,color saturation and noise suppression hold up better .
2........IQ at base ISO has a different aesthetic differences between CCD and CMOS ...this isn t going to change . The CCD files have a brilliance and color depth thats not matched by CMOS ..even using the same Leica lenses .
So all as expected ..the M9 never matched the DMR ..but it was superb in its own right and better in so many other ways . I expect the M will follow the same path ..it will be superb but different . if you have been waiting and waiting for performance in the 800-3200 range ,live view,EVF or many of the other updates , it will be worth it .
The files selected should show how the new camera handles a need for a large dynamic range ,the ability to record fine detail , noise limitations in high ISO etc (not a complete list ). It is in this context that comments are fair game . I thought Jono and Chris did a good job of showing representative samples .
Leica has such great products (eventually) that they get a free pass on "never ever getting anything done on time " . No knock on Jono or Chris but a pro with good light could shoot all those proofs in a day . So they have Jono out months before ...last fall ? Seems like a fair comment that Leica s new release process is lacking . Wait 9 months for Leica to get it right ? Seriously can anyone that bought an M8,M9 or S2 at first release support that Leica got it right ? The Leica SPa trip joke isn t funny if you need the gear .
Expecting a professional set of DNG s to evaluate a buying decision sure seems reasonable to me . If you didn t order back last summer (no not at the release date ) you wouldn t see you camera (in most cases ) until summer . A 9 month wait for most orders . This is new low in performance by the team that can t stop patting themselves on the back (not Jono/Chris ) .
IMO ...the DNG s are decent to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the new M . They will get better as Adobe finishes the profiles , calibration and presets get refined . However, The files are very finished looking compared to the M9 or S2 at introduction . This means that the embedded profile clearly has produced the color to a desired profile . In normal daylight I found the WB and most of the other processing unnecessary . This is similar to the DMR which never did get an Adobe profile (correct ?) . The maestro processor has been working hard .
Really did anyone expect the files to be crappy ? We know the change from CCD to CMOS is the big story . If you have compared any of the top CMOS systems to CCD you know what to look for :
1.......ISO performance is better with CMOS ..the files hold up as ISO increases and they extend out up to ISO6400 . DR ,color saturation and noise suppression hold up better .
2........IQ at base ISO has a different aesthetic differences between CCD and CMOS ...this isn t going to change . The CCD files have a brilliance and color depth thats not matched by CMOS ..even using the same Leica lenses .
So all as expected ..the M9 never matched the DMR ..but it was superb in its own right and better in so many other ways . I expect the M will follow the same path ..it will be superb but different . if you have been waiting and waiting for performance in the 800-3200 range ,live view,EVF or many of the other updates , it will be worth it .
Chuck Jones
Subscriber Member
Roger I respect everything you had to say here, and I agree with almost all of it. The only possible issue I would have is in the way you define value when using the words "it will be worth it."
All of you here who know me and/or my work also know that I have shot Leica products for many years, the M system the longest. In my opinion, there are few 35mm lenses ever made that are equal to a Leica, and fewer still that are superior. I hold Leica glass in the highest regard, and still today use it on a regular basis in my own work.
But the bodies? There I've some observations to share. Leica has had probably the most colorful history of all the digital camera manufacturers. I owned all of those earlier offerings, two of the DMR attachment "backs" for my R8 & R9, two "colorful purple" M8s on it's first release, then the latest my M9. Each of these bodies worked, however none of them nearly as well or as reliably as I would have hoped - or expected at the price they sold for.
That said, I used each and every one of them to create imagery that I could not have created at the time with any other body. The magic of the color and micro-contrast detail from the R Glass and the DMR were not available in any other offering then, and few equal them today. The portability, stealth, size, and weight of the M8 aside, the ability to use the fantastic M lenses on a digital M8 body far and away provided me more than sufficient reason to own two of them, and put up with the IR challenges. The M9, refining the M8 concept to what a Digital M camera should have been in the first place.
Historically speaking I think we can all agree that none of these Leica digital developments came very quickly, relative to the other digital camera manufacturer's offerings on the market at the same time. Outside their deep lens expertise, Leica has never been known as a particularly savvy or innovative technology company. They never needed to be in the days of mechanical mechanisms to move a strip of film. While not perfect, each of these cameras had something very special and unique about them that made me purchase and use for my work.
I'm taking a wait and see for myself attitude towards the new M. Much as I appreciate Jono's kind offer to view his excellent image samples, Jono and I shoot very different work under different conditions. I would be less than honest if I did not say though that the decision this time around is going to be very differently based than it has been in the past. Today's reality is there are other contenders in town that do a pretty darn good job of meeting my needs, and I am already using them today.
Does this latest generation M camera body have something to offer me? I won't be able to answer that question until I can test it for myself. My hope is that it does, as I've always enjoyed the controls and control layout on Leica bodies. And, of course, the perfect fit between them and Leica M lenses without the need for adapters. But it is going to take something more to compel me into deciding it is a camera body I can't live without than just a more convenient lens mount. I need to see something unique and compelling from the body that I am not seeing so far from the specifications. Something uniquely Leica, that most likely can only come from holding one in my own hands and shooting it. Cause right now, to me it looks like a too camera. Too little, too late, and way too expensive to own vs. what those same dollars can buy in alternative bodies already on the market with the same image capturing capability using the same quality lenses.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
Chuck
Of course " value " is the eye of beholder and Leica has always been several times as expensive as other good alternatives . My observations we really aimed at those m8/m9 owners that are on the fence about the new M . Giving up some of the benefits of say the M9 CCD to gain the greater all around capabilities of the new M ..seems worth it . I won t really know until I have an M and use it a while .
The issue for many M8/M9 owners is will the new M be a real step up . I really hated giving up the DMR color but I forget the weak points like a cropped sensor ,weak battery , small buffer and visible noise starting at ISO400 . I feel the M9 to new M will be a similar transition process and with experience I can narrow the gap like I did with the M9 .
I know I am stuck in the mud ....but my priorities are (1) be able to really see what I capturing (viewfinder ) and (2) being able to quickly and accurately focus . Haven t found any system I connect with better than a Leica M .
So please take my observations in that context and not as blanket endorsement .
Of course " value " is the eye of beholder and Leica has always been several times as expensive as other good alternatives . My observations we really aimed at those m8/m9 owners that are on the fence about the new M . Giving up some of the benefits of say the M9 CCD to gain the greater all around capabilities of the new M ..seems worth it . I won t really know until I have an M and use it a while .
The issue for many M8/M9 owners is will the new M be a real step up . I really hated giving up the DMR color but I forget the weak points like a cropped sensor ,weak battery , small buffer and visible noise starting at ISO400 . I feel the M9 to new M will be a similar transition process and with experience I can narrow the gap like I did with the M9 .
I know I am stuck in the mud ....but my priorities are (1) be able to really see what I capturing (viewfinder ) and (2) being able to quickly and accurately focus . Haven t found any system I connect with better than a Leica M .
So please take my observations in that context and not as blanket endorsement .
Personally, I greatly appreciate the samples and subsequent discussions here.
In recent past, Jono's MM beta RAW files from China were very helpful to me when making a move to secure one. My own personal 35+ year historical application of a M camera had been overwhelmingly B&W, so it was not really all that hard to commit. It was one of those immediately "worth it" sort of personal decisions. In concert with the whole "unique gestalt" that Chuck references, the MM has proven to meet every application criteria I had, and then some. The whole M rangefinder and lens performance aspect was obviously intact right down to the smallest attribute.
Now, right on the heels of that comes another major decision ... one that may not be as crystal clear quite yet to everyone, but also very expensive ... and what potential impact might it have on one's creative approach(s)?
IMO, one of the chief questions is broached by Chuck ... in the array of color solutions available now (or hinted at as soon coming), how much of a role will a camera like the new M play in each of our personal array of applications? How much could it expand those applications, and do we actually care?
Knowing Roger and Jono's work to some degree, it is probably safe to say the new M can and will play a role in their creative approaches. That may not be quite as clear for others ... perhaps Chuck being one, and me being another.
No huge rush really is there? My go to color solution is either a H4D/60 with its Dalsa sensor skin tones :thumbup:, or the Leica S2 with delicious optics ... both of which I adore for any color work ... or a Sony solution with some tasty Zeiss AF optics for speed, and all the modern toys, e-viewfinder, and wiz-bang do-dads.
All the best, and keep the samples coming ... I'm starting to suspect that I'm facing a Three M future: MM for B&W, M9P for standard lower ISO CCD punch and character match to my S2, and the new M for lower-light color and perhaps some other use of the flexibility (like the new M base that allows sync cords for use of off-camera strobes).
-Marc
In recent past, Jono's MM beta RAW files from China were very helpful to me when making a move to secure one. My own personal 35+ year historical application of a M camera had been overwhelmingly B&W, so it was not really all that hard to commit. It was one of those immediately "worth it" sort of personal decisions. In concert with the whole "unique gestalt" that Chuck references, the MM has proven to meet every application criteria I had, and then some. The whole M rangefinder and lens performance aspect was obviously intact right down to the smallest attribute.
Now, right on the heels of that comes another major decision ... one that may not be as crystal clear quite yet to everyone, but also very expensive ... and what potential impact might it have on one's creative approach(s)?
IMO, one of the chief questions is broached by Chuck ... in the array of color solutions available now (or hinted at as soon coming), how much of a role will a camera like the new M play in each of our personal array of applications? How much could it expand those applications, and do we actually care?
Knowing Roger and Jono's work to some degree, it is probably safe to say the new M can and will play a role in their creative approaches. That may not be quite as clear for others ... perhaps Chuck being one, and me being another.
No huge rush really is there? My go to color solution is either a H4D/60 with its Dalsa sensor skin tones :thumbup:, or the Leica S2 with delicious optics ... both of which I adore for any color work ... or a Sony solution with some tasty Zeiss AF optics for speed, and all the modern toys, e-viewfinder, and wiz-bang do-dads.
All the best, and keep the samples coming ... I'm starting to suspect that I'm facing a Three M future: MM for B&W, M9P for standard lower ISO CCD punch and character match to my S2, and the new M for lower-light color and perhaps some other use of the flexibility (like the new M base that allows sync cords for use of off-camera strobes).
-Marc
Double Negative
Not Available
I don't know what all happened on LUF, RFF, SH, LR... But I can only imagine. And why I started La Vida Leica. The childish bickering and other nonsense just got old. Thankfully, GetDPI has a similar no-nonsense bunch of guys behind it and what keeps this site respectable, mature and professional.
In any event, thank you Jono - for providing the images! They're very much appreciated.
In any event, thank you Jono - for providing the images! They're very much appreciated.
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Just people being people. Many were disrespectful. Most were somewhat objective. Some people feel it's their duty to champion their choice in camera either way and that everything else is crap. I guess it goes with the territory. Full disclosure a part of me disliked some of the perceived arrogance of SOME Leica M users when I was initially researching an M8 purchase. In a way it was good thing because I saw helpful regulars at LUF like Guy and Jonoslack mention GetDPI and that's how I wound up here. The saying is true though until you've walked in their shoes it's unfair to judge. Being an M owner I see the other side and the assumed prejudices of M users that is often far from the truth for most (they're all spoiled rich camera/ lens collectors, status camera, they don't actually make photos, etc.)
Recently (within the last 6 months) I've earned my Leica fan boy badge. Yes people will disregard the fact that I own three other systems (like many other Leica M people.) I even talked my buddy OUT of buying into a M-E (he really liked my Orphanage pictures and some other stuff I've done) he was prepared to get because it realistically didn't fit his needs. So he would up with a D600 kit which he loves and it fit his needs.
jonoslack
Active member
HI There
Actually, LUF has been interesting - sometimes challenging, often negative, but mostly sensible and useful.
RFF has been RFF - I was accused of both fraud, and allowing Leica to write the blurb on the blog which has my name to it - standard RFF stuff I'd say! Some measured stuff though - as usual .
SH and LR - well!
But it's okay - it comes with the territory - and on the other hand I've had some supportive and friendly comments and emails from people who I really do respect - which much more than makes up for the negative.
All the best
Good news.
I'm hoping these recent events haven't dissuaded you from continuing these forays in the future.
Double Negative
Not Available
^ What he said.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
jonoslack
Active member
Good news.
^ What he said.
Thank you kindly gentlemen
Truth is I'm much easier to flatter than to discourage, and flattery from someone you respect is so much more significant than criticism from someone you don't. :ROTFL: (of course, I'm completely objective about this).
. . . and if it seems like I'm mild mannered, you should see the posts that I don't press the 'post' button on :shocked:
It's all very good fun, and I feel privileged to have the opportunity (it is harder work than you might imagine though).
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Ron
It's nice to see you here. I actually have nothing to do with Leica advertising, but I am 'working' for Leica (I don't get paid - hence the quote marks). I do it for the fun of it - and it is fun (and it's quite a lot of work).
I also appreciate that I'm part of the marketing machine for the new camera - how could it be otherwise? I've often said that if I find something wrong with a camera I tell Leica, and if I find something right then I tell everyone else - I've never pretended to be a free agent like Sean Reid, Michael Reichman, Ming Thein or other reviewers.
But this doesn't stop me from being honest. It doesn't stop Leica from being honest either, Of course everything I write is seen by them first (but they don't ask me to show it to them), and I can honestly say that they've never asked me to change or add anything at all. . . Nothing. And I'm not given a brief as to what to write either - ever.
If I'm praising the camera, then it's because I think it's praiseworthy - If I didn't like it, then I'd keep my mouth shut; which is absolutely my prerogative.
Does this clarify things?
I do hope so
all the best
PS if anyone finds this post odd, then it's kind of in response to some dialog on RFF.
V
Vivek
Guest
Hi Jono, Continue with what you are doing and have fun!
Just ignore anything that is negative.
Just ignore anything that is negative.
jonoslack
Active member
Hi There Guy
Thanks for the kind words.
I won't be able to do a comparison with dSLR cameras with respect to live view. I will be putting together something over the next few weeks, and of course I'll post it here straight away - Leica are quite careful to make a level playing field, so everyone can post on the same date (I just might not have written it by then!).
all the best to you . . . and also to yours