Site Sponsors
Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 250 of 645

Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

  1. #201
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    It's logical for myself to buy the SL and use the new SL as a backup for my s2, and use my M and R lenses on a new weatherproof platform.
    Yevgeny
    I wonder how much the S-adapter is going to cost and how well balanced the S lenses will be on the SL.

    If the experience is good this could be an interesting upgrade path for existing S2 owners.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  2. #202
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    I wonder how much the S-adapter is going to cost and how well balanced the S lenses will be on the SL.

    If the experience is good this could be an interesting upgrade path for existing S2 owners.
    My belief is that the adapters shall be free with the camera, which will be shipped with one heavy zoom. A lot of people will want to use the adapted lenses. The full frame AF primes for the SL are the S primes.

    I also think that Leica owe us free SL-R adapters for their failure with the R10!! It's not forgotten by R-users.

    The R and S adapters shall be included in the kit with that zoom APO lens. If not, it's a joke of a system camera!!!

  3. #203
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    "Toys" that are very sophisticated and immensely joyful to use.
    The "toy" word was a trap, to see if you were awake, Vivek
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #204
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Do you mean, like:

    1. Light weight
    2. Compact size
    3. IBIS
    4. Phase detect AF
    5. Tilting LCD
    6. High resolution sensor
    No, I mean:

    1. Fast frame rate
    2. Great build quality
    3. Good ergonomics
    4. Top LCD
    5. Deep buffer
    6. Proper connections, including full size HDMI and flash sync
    7. 4K, both types
    8. Reasonably sized battery
    9. 2 SD cards
    10. All the goodies in one model (No R or S needed for improved this and that)

    As for:

    1. Light weight (It's lighter than the D810, D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D all of them, etc.)
    2. Compact size (It's smaller than all of the above as well, but probably large enough for my hands.)
    3. IBIS (It lacks IBIS like most pro cameras. It would be nice to have, but I've never had it nor missed it.)
    4. Phase detect AF (Yup, would have loved that)
    5. Tilting LCD (My guess: They thought it wouldn't be strong enough for the intended use. There are arguments going both ways.)
    6. High resolution sensor (Higher resolution than D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D III, A7s II etc.)
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 20th October 2015 at 21:35.

  5. #205
    Member msadat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    actually if leica ships the m and s adapters with the camera at no extra charge, it makes much more appealing for everybody. they will sell more cameras, and lenses of all sorts.

    to charge 7k for a body that sony redoes every 6 months is too much.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #206
    Member msadat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    also the viewfinder for sure made in japan, and i think we will see it in the next olympus em1 and fuji xt-1

  7. #207
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post

    to charge 7k for a body that sony redoes every 6 months is too much.
    But that's the whole point. Buying Sony to do most of what this camera does, you would first have had to buy an A7 for the 24MP two years ago, then an A7s 18 months ago to do 4K video, but you needed a $2K recorder for that, and then again an A7r II to do most of those things with one camera, although the Sony won't do 11fps even if you feed it with grain fed beef and Baron Philippe de Rothschild Mouton Cadet at every meal.

    Did I mention the tiny batteries of the Sony?

  8. #208
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?


  9. #209
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    324
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    No, I mean:

    1. Fast frame rate
    2. Great build quality
    3. Good ergonomics
    4. Top LCD
    5. Deep buffer
    6. Proper connections, including full size HDMI and flash sync
    7. 4K, both types
    8. Reasonably sized battery
    9. All the goodies in one model (No R or S needed for improved this and that)

    As for:

    1. Light weight (It's lighter than the D810, D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D all of them, etc.)
    2. Compact size (It's smaller than all of the above as well, but probably large enough for my hands.)
    3. IBIS (It lacks IBIS like most pro cameras. It would be nice to have, but I've never had it nor missed it.)
    4. Phase detect AF (Yup, would have loved that)
    5. Tilting LCD (My guess: They thought it wouldn't be strong enough for the intended use. There are arguments going both ways.)
    6. High resolution sensor (Higher resolution than D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D III, A7s II etc.)
    Almost every one of these features from both lists have been available for some time in the excellent Samsung NX1.

    Plus, more than one lens.

    It looks like an intriguing camera for owners of Leica glass that want a mirrorless solution.

    Hopefully, it will push Sony and the other camera makers to up their game just by its mere existence.

    -Bill

  10. #210
    Member msadat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    you can only compare this camera to the a7rii, the others are older model.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But that's the whole point. Buying Sony to do most of what this camera does, you would first have had to buy an A7 for the 24MP two years ago, then an A7s 18 months ago to do 4K video, but you needed a $2K recorder for that, and then again an A7r II to do most of those things with one camera, although the Sony won't do 11fps even if you feed it with grain fed beef and Baron Philippe de Rothschild Mouton Cadet at every meal.

    Did I mention the tiny batteries of the Sony?
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  11. #211
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    No, I mean:

    1. Fast frame rate
    2. Great build quality
    3. Good ergonomics
    4. Top LCD
    5. Deep buffer
    6. Proper connections, including full size HDMI and flash sync
    7. 4K, both types
    8. Reasonably sized battery
    9. All the goodies in one model (No R or S needed for improved this and that)

    As for:

    1. Light weight (It's lighter than the D810, D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D all of them, etc.)
    2. Compact size (It's smaller than all of the above as well, but probably large enough for my hands.)
    3. IBIS (It lacks IBIS like most pro cameras. It would be nice to have, but I've never had it nor missed it.)
    4. Phase detect AF (Yup, would have loved that)
    5. Tilting LCD (My guess: They thought it wouldn't be strong enough for the intended use. There are arguments going both ways.)
    6. High resolution sensor (Higher resolution than D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D III, A7s II etc.)
    To be fair, you said "a camera that offers most of what mirrorless haven't included so far" And now you've including DSLR's in your response. Not sure about "good ergonomics" either. There are multiple reviews already claiming that the grip puts alot of strain on the wrist. And no tilting screen makes this a poor choice for videographers.

    The biggest issue I see though, is that there is only one AF lens to choose from. And boy is that glass huge!

  12. #212
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tysons Corner, Virginia
    Posts
    490
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    18

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I dunno...seems to me a bit chunky, like the first Leica SLR. Only after the third iteration did Leica finally get into the groove of designing a camera that started to feel more human scaled.

    As it stands right now with its lenses, suddenly my Canon 6D with the Sigma 35mm Art lens doesn't seem so big.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  13. #213
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    1. Light weight (It's lighter than the D810, D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D all of them, etc.)
    It's lighter than a D810 by a whopping 1.16 oz. and with the 24-90 it is actually heavier than the D810 with the stellar new 24-70.

    It's too big, too heavy and way too expensive for what it is.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #214
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    495
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thumbs up Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Hey it's cheaper than an r9 and a dmr.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #215
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    74
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by yudafu2 View Post
    Intensely disappointed. This is probably the ugliest camera that Leica has produced, ever.

    I can stomach poor screen resolution, quirks of electronics, but an ugly camera like that? No way. Then I will just get the ugly Sony instead.

    It is a total shame, if we remember the modern classic design of the M9-P, the absolutely zenith of aesthetics of digital cameras. Can we even put those two cameras together and claim they have the same inheritance? Or if we look at the beauty of the S cameras, which absolutely stand for the best aesthetics a DSLR can achieve.

    Moreover, if a mirrorless camera is that big and heavy with monstrous lenses, why not just get a Nikon D810 with more pixels and established reliability? What is the point of going mirrorless to deal with EVF?

    The entire design team has to be fired.

    I am feeling that something is changing in German industry. Think of VW, BMW and so on. They are becoming somewhat obsessed with the idea of gaining market shares, no longer satisfied with their niche.

    Sad.
    Hmm, interesting, I never really cared what a camera looked like. It was how it handled, operated, and what I could (and can) create with it that has always mattered.

  16. #216
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I posted this another forum also, but at this point I think it's quite obvious that Leica's new partner is Samsung, who can make sensors, processors, and LCD's in-house. Everything about this camera, including the high frame/buffer rates, screams "full-frame NX-1" to me. The biggest give-away was the Korean print on the base-plate of the Leica Q.

  17. #217
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Almost every one of these features from both lists have been available for some time in the excellent Samsung NX1.

    Plus, more than one lens.

    It looks like an intriguing camera for owners of Leica glass that want a mirrorless solution.

    Hopefully, it will push Sony and the other camera makers to up their game just by its mere existence.

    -Bill
    What I find troubling with regards to Sony's answer to this is that they have already, within a time frame of two years, launched 6 - six - more or less overlapping versions of the A7. Still, this single model from Leica seems to be a better all-round option.

  18. #218
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ai_Print View Post
    It's lighter than a D810 by a whopping 1.16 oz. and with the 24-90 it is actually heavier than the D810 with the stellar new 24-70.

    It's too big, too heavy and way too expensive for what it is.
    Yup, it's basically the same weight as the D810, a camera that I'm very comfortable with. The lens having 20mm more reach is a huge bonus, meaning that I will often be able to skip a separate portrait lens. In many ways, it mimics the PanaLeica 14-50mm f/2.8-3.5 for 4/3, my all-time favourite zoom lens.

    And for what it is:
    It's a 24 megapixel, 11 fps camera with a 4 megapixel viewfinder that also shoots 4K video (both formats) and 120 fps 1080 HD video. I would like to see other cameras that do this at a lower weight/smaller size, with the same build quality and weather sealing.

  19. #219
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    261
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by rsmphoto View Post
    Hmm, interesting, I never really cared what a camera looked like. It was how it handled, operated, and what I could (and can) create with it that has always mattered.
    Well, there's plenty to handle at 2kg or 4.4lbs with lens. Perhaps this person has really small hands:



    Image from DP Review

  20. #220
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Well, there's plenty to handle at 2kg or 4.4lbs with lens. Perhaps this person has really small hands:



    Image from DP Review
    If size and weight were prime concerns when developing this camera, they wouldn't have paired it with a 24-90mm f/2.8-4.0 lens, a lens that is bound to be large, particularly when Leicas quality requirements are added. This camera is clearly aimed as a tool for working photographers. Unless Canon or Nikon comes up with something similar at half the price, I'm rather sure that this will become a success. A Leica style success, but a success nonetheless.

    Remember when the S2 was launched? Not many saw the logic in that camera. Now, it's a well established part of the camera landscape.

  21. #221
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,124
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I just don't get the value proposition for a professional.

    My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots.

    Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses?

    Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection.

    So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals.

    Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a 10K system - what on earth would be the ROI?

    There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high.

    The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead.

    Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass.

    Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.

    Just my two cents!

    LouisB
    -----
    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #222
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    232
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Thanks Jono for the early review.

    Somehow i managed to pick out all the trielmar shots without even looking at caption.....hmmm..... (Not the wide angle part that captured my attention). There is definitely something special about the trielmar

    Now after reading more reviews and hands-on article, i feel it makes more sense to look at it as.....S but Light....oh wait.... Hmm...
    Keep It Simple.
    XQ2 / A7r / 15mm / 25mm / 28-35-50mm
    EOS M3 / 18-35mm

  23. #223
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.
    There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.

  24. #224
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Well, there's plenty to handle at 2kg or 4.4lbs with lens. Perhaps this person has really small hands:



    Image from DP Review
    I was thinking the same thing - yes, it's way too big for my interest, but someone was having a laugh using that model to hold it.

    It's impossible to argue with the price+technology of the Sony kit to produce an output... but it feels like mass market disposable (at least the A7RII does imho).

    Kind regards

    Brian

  25. #225
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This camera is clearly aimed as a tool for working photographers.
    I have been a full time working photographer for going on 30 years and I do not agree. At best, this will see very niche use by pros and not this one, the ergonomics look pretty poor for a camera this bulky and heavy.

    I added an M240 to my working kit this year and love it. But it is a really small kit, 3 lenses, two film bodies and one M digital. Part of the reason for this is Leica is by far the worst in terms of taking care of pros with horrible repair turn around times and no loaner gear out there. I sent both a Leica and Hasselblad lens out to have the collimation checked at the same time, the Hasselblad came back adjusted in just 10 days. The Leica lens took 6 weeks just to get out into the system in Solms and will now be gone another 8 weeks.

    With Leica, if a lens needs to go to Solms, you buy another one and when the repaired one gets back, you keep the better of the two and sell the other one. I did that very thing with buying a 35mm FLE when my pre-FLE went in for adjustment. When it comes back I will sell it.

    Very, very few *real* pros if any will be buying the SL.

  26. #226
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    590
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.
    Oh come on. There are many, many kinds of pros doing lots of different jobs. Plenty like digital Ms as an arrow in the quiver. So it will be with this thing.

    It's not overpriced a penny considering the quality and low production numbers. It will sell out. It will hold value.

    The weak link is going to be the AF lens set, which may never materialize in remotely the options you have with a D810. So, of course lots of small scale pros would never consider it. Good thing, because they could not make enough.

    It's a real supercar, and they are not always totally practical

  27. #227
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.
    You could say that about several cameras, like the Leica S, which is used by several pro photographers, some of whom are active on this forum.

    But let's say then, that you want a camera that does photography, minimum 11 fps (for whatever reason), and 4k video using an internal viewfinder and sometimes 120 fps HD video as well. Which one would you suggest? The NX1 comes close, but it's not full frame.

    And don't claim that those requirements are unusual or irrelevant. This is exactly the kind of specs I have dreamed of with my combination of assignments, doing sports, events, industrial, portrait and travel photography. The D810 goes a long way to satisfy my needs, but it's not a practical camera for video. A7... forget it. Too small battery, only one card slot, alien ergonomics, slow burst mode etc.

  28. #228
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    North Sweden
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I agree, to class pro's as being the same or requiring the same is pretty absurd. As with all camera users, nobody needs to justify what they want to use. It has many pro features and for a pro it's written off over 3 years and if you aren't making enough money to afford it then there are more serious issues to deal with, like getting another job!

    The more I read of this the more I like, I hate small cameras, personal thing and this looks a good size to actually hold and use on a job. Balance will be something I can only judge if I hold it but the S balance negates the weight, it's so nice to hold.

    A couple of decent contracts will buy this camera for me but it's not something I will get, at least not now as there is nothing I lack from the 007 and 006 combination. I think Leica did a great job of this camera, good luck to them.

    Mat
    http://matrichardson.com/
    Workshops for 2018! http://www.matrichardson.com/workshops
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #229
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Here's an article with several photos that show the size of the camera more realistically:

    Leica SL 35mm Full Frame Autofocus | Film and Digital Times
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post

  30. #230
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here's an article with several photos that show the size of the camera more realistically:

    Leica SL 35mm Full Frame Autofocus | Film and Digital Times
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  31. #231
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    You could say that about several cameras, like the Leica S, which is used by several pro photographers, some of whom are active on this forum.

    But let's say then, that you want a camera that does photography, minimum 11 fps (for whatever reason), and 4k video using an internal viewfinder and sometimes 120 fps HD video as well. Which one would you suggest? The NX1 comes close, but it's not full frame.

    And don't claim that those requirements are unusual or irrelevant. This is exactly the kind of specs I have dreamed of with my combination of assignments, doing sports, events, industrial, portrait and travel photography. The D810 goes a long way to satisfy my needs, but it's not a practical camera for video. A7... forget it. Too small battery, only one card slot, alien ergonomics, slow burst mode etc.
    The Leica S is different, because it' sensor caters to a more slow-shooting crowd. From promotional videos it's quite clear Leica is going after the Canon and Nikon pro's with the SL.

    As a 'professional' camera, the lack of PDAF is a deal-breaker for photographers, and the lack of a tilting/articulating screen will prevent videographers from considering this camera. Besides, what pro will buy a camera with one native lens and nonexistant support?

  32. #232
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,115
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I respect Leica for having the guts to make this camera on one end. "Very German" was my first thought. And I am sure it has some degree of great usability and the lenses will be amazing.

    But at this point I am a fan of smaller cameras, so decidedly not for me, and as for image and all I do believe you can get comparable image quality in some ways at at least half the price.

    But I still respect in a way the guts to go for such a particular design even if it's not to my personal preferences in what I want in a camera, as far as being coherent/consistent.

    - Ricardo

  33. #233
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    The Leica S is different, because it' sensor caters to a more slow-shooting crowd. From promotional videos it's quite clear Leica is going after the Canon and Nikon pro's with the SL.

    As a 'professional' camera, the lack of PDAF is a deal-breaker for photographers, and the lack of a tilting/articulating screen will prevent videographers from considering this camera. Besides, what pro will buy a camera with one native lens and nonexistant support?
    I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think its quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

    Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.

  34. #234
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think its quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

    Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.
    MT has negative credibility after claiming the A7r II is a "toy". He should be out there promoting VW. He might even fool a few and sell a few units.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #235
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    MT has negative credibility after claiming the A7r II is a "toy". He should be out there promoting VW. He might even fool a few and sell a few units.
    I have no idea how he could come to that conclusion

    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  36. #236
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I just don't get the value proposition for a professional.

    My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots.

    Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses?

    Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection.

    So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals.

    Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a 10K system - what on earth would be the ROI?

    There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high.

    The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead.

    Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass.

    Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.

    Just my two cents!

    LouisB
    The premium for working with Leica equipment has always been high Louis. There is no short answer to your request, but I'll try and share my own experiences. To address your "value" question depends on evaluating a few conditions a professional (full or part time) may be working with.

    Chief among these is "how successful" one may be. If you have a good business model and sharp accountant, are positioned at the higher end of your market and/or have less external financial pressure that allows you to prioritize what you want to work with ... IF there is something you think will work well for you, and how you shoot, then equipment costs become less of an issue.

    Leica has set their sights on those with the means to choose almost anything they want, whether pro or amateur. Volume sales isn't their objective. While we compare this SL to Nikon, Canon or Sony, that isn't really the competitive set for Leica. In a manner of speaking, Leica could be seen as a reward for doing well ... wether a successful Doctor, Engineer, or Professional Photographer

    So, you are probably right, this SL system is of little to no value to a wedding shooter positioned at the lower or even mid-range of their market, certainly not a Craig's Lister cranking out weddings for $1K or less. In contrast, my last wedding was $6K, plus I was doing a fair amount of corporate work and commercial shoots on top of weddings and portraits with established day rates ... (have one this January for $4.5K plus all expenses for 7 hours shooting).

    If Jono and Ming's assessments are correct, this kit is exactly what I'd seriously consider. I'm use to Leica prices and did work for pay with comparatively expensive Leica M9s & a MM with a King's ransom in M lenses, plus a S2 (now a S-006) and CS lenses. My work horse wedding DSLR was a 24 meg FF Sony A99SLT and 6 ZA lenses which I recently sold. If Leica had made a Digital R to replace the DMR, that is what I would have been using instead.

    I tried the Sony A7R and found it wasn't up to my pro wedding needs. To loud, short battery life, an EVF that smeared in low light movement, too much timing lag, too complex interface, didn't shoot to two cards ... not to mention poor choice of AF lenses until more recently. While the A7R-II addresses some of these issues, it still falls short. Its value proposition to me was poor. Actually, the A99 was better in most cases.

    In contrast, this SL hits a lot of the marks that are of importance for me:

    24 meg FF is my sweet spot for most pro assignments, most certainly weddings. This camera is quiet. It doesn't lag. It shoots to two cards. Seems to have a simple interface similar to the S camera (4 buttons around the LCD), has a higher res EVF and fast refresh rate. The AF seems quick and accurate according to reviewers. Compared to the FE 24-70/4, the new 24-90/2.8-4 stabilized lens is the perfect zoom range for weddings and lots of other applications. If it is anything like the Leica 28-90R lens, it'll render to my liking.

    I have hesitated in ordering the A7R-II, and while I liked the new S(007), also have hesitated ordering that. This time it seems procrastination is paying off. I will now get this kit instead.

    I will be able to use my M lenses and S lenses ... so I probably will only need the SL body and the 24-90 zoom ... which combined are thousands less than the S(007) body alone. Hopefully, my SF58 speed-lights will work. My S kit can now reside predominately (but not exclusively) in studio tethered to a 5K retina screen (best LCD review ever!), or be used on jobs or personal projects requiring portable lighting with leaf-shutter CS lenses.

    The issue others have with the SL grip probably won't concern me as much ... I use a Camadapter dual lug ARCA QR plate with a hand-strap and wide soft shoulder strap on all my working cameras. It eliminates long term hand fatigue and shoulder strain even when carrying a S camera and big S lenses ... like at a wedding.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 21st October 2015 at 02:04.
    Thanks 3 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 7 Member(s) liked this post

  37. #237
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Marc, You may want to check out the battery life (SL vs A7r II) before thinking this ticks all the boxes for you. Also, the lag time.

  38. #238
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    North Sweden
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I agree with all Marc's points. I work in a small market flooded with people with a 6D and kit zoom lens, I am often 3 times the price and yet I have decent regular work because I provide value, cheap and value are 2 different things! I made the conscious decision to work at a level with equipment that is not normal and for me it pays off. Decent contracts can be very lucrative, my recent trip to Mali paid for the 007 and 24mm lens no problem, everything I earn with it over the next 3 years is profit.

    The SL appears more and more interesting every time I read something new, my 006 is on the way back from being completely overhauled and was going to be my backup but I can see myself selling it for the SL, on a tripod with an S lens shooting high quality video whilst I shoot stills with the 007, could be an ideal kit for me. This afternoon I am shooting an event with the 007, it's overkill for sure as I know the images will be on facebook and website, the SL with the 24-90 will do the job extremely well and more importantly, would still give me the same look to the files so it wouldn't appear to the client that I'm using something cheaper for the job.

    Anyway, it's another option, I wish them loads of success with it.

    Mat

  39. #239
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think its quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

    Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.
    1. What do you need 11 fps for, other than shooting action like motorsports, wildlife/birds, or sports? All professional working in these fields REQUIRE phase-detect AF. In fact, why did they even bother with 11 fps if they had no intentions of including PDAF?

    2. As for video, there's no way an articulated LCD won't help. And to add insult to injury they even decided to go without IBIS!! So you're stuck with the native 24-90mm for video if you want autofocus or any sort of stabilization.

    3. Ming Thein also mentions the ergonomics are WORSE than Sony. He finds the grip very uncomfortable.

    So much like the original A7's, this camera is an half-hearted effort. I applaud Leica for pushing the envelope, but honestly it would be smart to wait for the next generation of this camera. By then they'll surely have more lenses too.

  40. #240
    New Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    1. Thank God the SL has an HDMI, 10 bit, 4-2-2 output with V-log.
    We could not use the M240 for much of our video work because it
    did not have an output for an external monitor or recorder. The SL
    now lets the Director or Producer see what the camera operator is
    shooting.

    2. The 24 to 90 lens is the perfect video interview lens. In combination with our Apo Vario Elmar 70-180, we can get maximum
    quality in 4k. We generally want to shoot at F 4 or F 3.5 on the larger
    chip cameras because we need the DOF. We light the subject, so, we
    don't need an F1.4 unless we are in some wild uncontrolled situation.
    Hopefully, Metabones will make an adapter for the T mount (L mount??).
    Price of the new zoom....A Leica quality lens for $5k sounds like a good deal to me. Cooke, Angenieux , and Fuji video zoom lenses cost at least $15k to $30k. And you have to have two overlapping lenses for
    most situations. There seems to be a PL to T adapter on the way from
    Leica which will allow many older film/video lenses to be used on the SL.

    Ciao, Sully
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #241
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    1. Thank God the SL has an HDMI, 10 bit, 4-2-2 output with V-log.
    We could not use the M240 for much of our video work because it
    did not have an output for an external monitor or recorder. The SL
    now lets the Director or Producer see what the camera operator is
    shooting.

    2. The 24 to 90 lens is the perfect video interview lens. In combination with our Apo Vario Elmar 70-180, we can get maximum
    quality in 4k. We generally want to shoot at F 4 or F 3.5 on the larger
    chip cameras because we need the DOF. We light the subject, so, we
    don't need an F1.4 unless we are in some wild uncontrolled situation.
    Hopefully, Metabones will make an adapter for the T mount (L mount??).
    Price of the new zoom....A Leica quality lens for $5k sounds like a good deal to me. Cooke, Angenieux , and Fuji video zoom lenses cost at least $15k to $30k. And you have to have two overlapping lenses for
    most situations. There seems to be a PL to T adapter on the way from
    Leica which will allow many older film/video lenses to be used on the SL.

    Ciao, Sully
    The PL adapter is apparently already available. It's to the left in this photo:


  42. #242
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    My impression, all the M lenses used in Jono Slack's article getDPI | Photography at its best seemed to be carefully chosen; of course understandably so. I own several but not all of those lenses. Mine also work very well on an unmodified Sony A7r2 camera.

    I am looking forward to Jono's promised article on M lenses that are known to have problems on (unmodified) Sony A7 cameras but do much better on the SL, according to Jono. Of interest to me would also be a comparison of their performance on a modified A7r2.

    Nevertheless, congratulations on a well written but uncritical introduction of a new Leica system that needs to be looked at with a grain of salt IMHO.

    Whereas Jono's article reads more like a sales brochure to me, Ming Thein's blog has more of the character of a review, spelling out the good and the bad as he sees it. Actually from Ming's article I personally get a much clearer impression of the areas the SL excels in and leaves the competition behind.

    The differences in camera design philosophie of Sony and Leica are becoming much clearer. Although some lenses in both camps can be larger, I nevertheless appreciate more a smaller camera body over a larger one as it seems to offer more flexibility.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 21st October 2015 at 04:43.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  43. #243
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I am also a little concerned regarding the size of the lenses. Body size looks good to me. Right now Inthink if I would have theat amount of money I wouldnrather upgrade from s006 to s007 than buying a sl+lens.
    I am also quite happy with the T system for casual shooting. If they give us a T with included evf and af-speed like the sl then I am fine.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  44. #244
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I am also a little concerned regarding the size of the lenses. Body size looks good to me. Right now Inthink if I would have theat amount of money I wouldnrather upgrade from s006 to s007 than buying a sl+lens.
    I am also quite happy with the T system for casual shooting. If they give us a T with included evf and af-speed like the sl then I am fine.
    Exactly, a ILC version of the Q. What everyone was waiting for!! Why on earth did they overthink this?

  45. #245
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    324
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    What I find troubling with regards to Sony's answer to this is that they have already, within a time frame of two years, launched 6 - six - more or less overlapping versions of the A7. Still, this single model from Leica seems to be a better all-round option.
    I can see where Sony's rapid upgrade path causes a great deal of frustration. However, I went from the A7 to the A7r2 and feel very little overlap in their functionality.

    I also cannot see where this giant camera that lacks IBIS, low light capabilities, PDAF, canon lens compatibility, a significant native AF lens availability, Eye Tracking AF, a tilting screen, high resolution, any semblance of affordability and more can be flatly called a better all-around solution.

    For me, it would represent a giant leap backwards from either my A7r2 or my Samsung NX1.

    But, for the well-heeled Leica specific crowd, especially those that don't mind a large camera body, it looks like an interesting choice.

    I would particularly like to see a Sony body with a high frame rate and a deeper buffer and more responsiveness in every day usage.

    Hopefully, these strengths of the Leica are praised so widely that Sony begins to feel the heat.

    Otherwise, I hope that Canon or Nikon makes a mirrorless with those features.

    Or, I would love to see Samsung wake from its long slumber and invest in the NX1 system with more great lenses. Or release their own insanely spec'd FF body.

    Or maybe the rumored November Sony camera body already incorporates those features.

    -Bill
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #246
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,085
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    This is a very nice piece of gear. Video side with full HD at 120fps (super interesting), built like a fewKing panzer ... a very durable tool if someone is able to invest such a price. With this in the pocket and some judicious lenses, no need other cameras for many many years.

    Now, this is sure Nikon or Canon will produce something at least similar (in build quality I hope).

    For me it is the best leica ever and it will be a major success for the brand.


    BUT ...

    With a body that large, I would have expected MF sensor inside. It is almost the size of a Mamiya 7ii...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  47. #247
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    This camera seems to have hit a very sensitive spot with Sony shooters...

    I guess Leica must have done something right
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #248
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    iiiNelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    3,187
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    This camera seems to have hit a very sensitive spot with Sony shooters...

    I guess Leica must have done something right
    I don't know that nerves are struck so much as there are some that are more vocal about the hypocrasy of some that ding Sony and the limitations of being a new FF system (like lens size, not having DSLR like PDAF, lens selection, etc) but see Leica gets "a pass" for having some of the same flaws.

    Personally I think this will be a great camera, specifically for those looking for a 35mm FF Leica S backup or a true R solution (even if it doesn't currently fit into my personal needs) and one that could be a real DSLR alternative IF there were more market and user access. From that marketing standpoint I think this is a market success. As a competitor in the mirrorless market though I think it's somewhat of a failure as Sony, Olympus, Fuji, and Samsung will likely surpass the technological features of this cameras pretty quickly as many pf them are already surpassed. The same can be said for the pro level DSLR's (5D, 6D, D810, etc) that are all about due for replacement/update soon.

    Choice is good and if I still was in the "Leica Ecosystem" or wanted to get my wife a camera this would be something I'd consider along with the Fuji, Sony, or Olympus choices.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #249
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    This camera seems to have hit a very sensitive spot with Sony shooters...

    I guess Leica must have done something right
    Presumably you are referring to me as well, but I have been a Leica shooter long before I was a Sony shooter, and I haven't completely converted.
    I used to shoot with a M8/M8.2/M9/M240 and recently switched to the A7 series, but I still have my M lenses and a Leica Q.

    This product pisses me off because it wasn't a ILC version of the Leica Q like it was hyped to be. That is what I wanted. Nothing more nothing less

  50. #250
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post

    I also cannot see where this giant camera that lacks IBIS, low light capabilities, PDAF, canon lens compatibility, a significant native AF lens availability, Eye Tracking AF, a tilting screen, high resolution, any semblance of affordability and more can be flatly called a better all-around solution.

    -Bill
    Ah... but I never had IBIS or eye tracking AF, I mostly shoot at ISO 64 with manual focus lenses, all of which can be fitted to the SL with an adapter, and I prefer to use the viewfinder. When I used Panasonic cameras, the LCD where mostly turned in towards the camera body, since all the information was available in the viewfinder anyway.

    But I do want a great viewfinder, 4K video, slo-mo video, 2 storage cards, a top LCD, batteries that last as long as possible and a camera that can take the abuse that I expose it to. And I don't care if my camera is 600 or 800 or 900 grams. I carry several kilograms of lenses anyway, always.

    So for me, this is a better all-round solution than any A7. That may change when the A7 Mark III versions are launched next year of course, and I probably can't afford the Leica anyway. But that is fine, since the D810 is still a great camera, and it will continue to be great for years to come.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •