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Thread: Two different views on the Leica SL

  1. #251
    Senior Member Lucille's Avatar
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I likie Steve Huff...

    I also likie Amin...


    I bet they would enjoy each others company in person.....
    the HepKitty
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  2. #252
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I likie you too, Lucille. And I hold no grudge against Steve Huff.

    Sorry to take this thread so far off topic, all.
    Last edited by Amin; 12th January 2016 at 19:31.
    -Amin Sabet
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  3. #253
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Time for a Group Hug?

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    I likie Steve Huff...

    I also likie Amin...
    I think I will likie them both as well but hate this blog/linky business.

    Absolutely nothing to do with photography or even the products they are trying to push!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    B&H pays him at least 3% and likely more than that since Steve does high volume. That means at least $225 for every Leica SL sale that occurs after an affiliate link click. Amazon pays more than that, sometimes more than twice as much.

    A few more words here about affiliate revenue here. Let me start off by saying that I am not accusing Steve Huff of anything here. I am speaking generally.

    There is no doubt that affiliate revenue is a potential source of bias for reviewers. I can state this from personal experience. When I review a lens and include affiliate links, I do so with full awareness that a glowing review is likely to convert 3 or 4 sales immediately with affiliate percentages running from 2-5% typically (sometimes higher), whereas a review that ends with "I decided not to buy this one" will usually convert no sales at all. For a review of a $800 lens, that is the difference between me making about $100 and making nothing.

    Do I feel that conflict of interest? Am I tempted to be extra positive? The answers are yes and yes. I do my best to write honestly, but the temptations are there. And that is despite the fact that I make 99.9% of my salary by working as a medical doctor and have relatively low traffic websites. How much greater a conflict of interest must there be for someone who makes their living from blogging and has a high traffic site? I can't answer that, but I think it has to be significant.




    I screenshotted my comment here in its entirety, so no one needs to guess at that.




    On that we agree. However, while I think it is inappropriate to suggest that Steve intentionally misleads people, I do find the blurry A7RII crops he posted in the SL comparison to be inexplicable.
    Thanks for the insight. I feel for those who use the blogs to buy a product, diaper or a Leica camera.
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  5. #255
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    There is no doubt that affiliate revenue is a potential source of bias for reviewers. I can state this from personal experience. When I review a lens and include affiliate links, I do so with full awareness that a glowing review is likely to convert 3 or 4 sales immediately with affiliate percentages running from 2-5% typically (sometimes higher), whereas a review that ends with "I decided not to buy this one" will usually convert no sales at all. For a review of a $800 lens, that is the difference between me making about $100 and making nothing.

    Do I feel that conflict of interest? Am I tempted to be extra positive? The answers are yes and yes. I do my best to write honestly, but the temptations are there. And that is despite the fact that I make 99.9% of my salary by working as a medical doctor and have relatively low traffic websites. How much greater a conflict of interest must there be for someone who makes their living from blogging and has a high traffic site? I can't answer that, but I think it has to be significant.
    Phew - I didn't know this stuff - Amin, thank you for enlightening me. . and if you really do make 99.9% of your salary as a doctor, I recommend you retreat to my position . . . no clicks, no adverts (no $100) (no heart searching). I've heard lots of other stuff in this region too, Steve Huff (and our Ken) have to make their livings in this melee - but I don't, and perhaps you don't either.

    Just this guy you know
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  6. #256
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Phew - I didn't know this stuff - Amin, thank you for enlightening me. . and if you really do make 99.9% of your salary as a doctor, I recommend you retreat to my position . . . no clicks, no adverts (no $100) (no heart searching). I've heard lots of other stuff in this region too, Steve Huff (and our Ken) have to make their livings in this melee - but I don't, and perhaps you don't either.
    Hi Jono,

    Although the affiliate sales must bias me, I believe in my heart that I am successful in preventing that bias from affecting the substance of my reviews, etc. And while I don't need adverts, clicks, or reviews to provide salary, those side revenues allow me pay for my websites without reaching into my family pot (from my job salary), and that keeps my wife happy and understanding. I do sometimes think about just finding someone else to run the sites, but I still enjoy it all on balance, so I haven't made that move just yet. Strange to be called a blogger in this thread, though, and to hear people say that I am someone's "competition". I never think of any of this in those terms.

    Even though you honorably disclose your relationship and allegiance to Leica, I think you must get a bit of tugging as you write. After all, you want to be as helpful as possible to your peers, but your responsibility is to Leica. There is inherent conflict there. It's just a different type of conflict.
    -Amin Sabet
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  7. #257
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    That is one of the most offensive posts I've seen here. You are essentially labelling Mr Huff as dishonest.

    Perhaps, unsurprisingly, this kind of defamation of character invariably comes from those who post anonymously.

    If I was Mr Huff I'd be looking into finding your identity...
    Relax bucko. I wouldn't actually say he's dishonest, but I would say he's a salesman that does everything he can to paint the products he's pushing in a positive light. Readers just need to understand that when they go to his site for 'reviews'. Would you REALLY trust a reviewer who makes money on people who buy the product he just reviewed? If you really think that a person should be sued for criticizing a camera review site then you clearly have other problems...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Steve Huff's site is pretty predictable IMO. He uses exactly the same tactics as Ken Rockwell, praising some things through the roof (Sony, Olympus, Leica) while bashing others (Fuji, Panasonic).

    Plus adding once in a while some controversy which leads new people to his site. This thread is probably quite good for him

    And if you don't agree with him he will block you as Amin says, even if you are not being insulting, I have exactly the same experience...

    And I will keep my personal opinion about his other website to myself. Feel free to judge for yourself...:

    I was attacked by an Evil Spirit or Entity. See the video. | Huff Paranormal
    Last edited by JorisV; 12th January 2016 at 17:53.
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  9. #259
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Not sure why folks are attacking Mr Huff on this forum, esp given the fact that you can buy THE IMPOSSIBLE BOX created by him for only $49.95 and "It goes from good to UNREAL AMAZING depending on time of day, location and activity" (just like the latest cameras he reviews). Sounds like an honest guy to me.
    THE IMPOSSIBLE BOX | Huff Paranormal
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  10. #260
    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    As the OP of this thread I will now ask everyone to return to the topic of the Leica SL camera and lens.

    Enough already about other sites and reviewers. Think for yourself and share YOUR thoughts about this camera system.

    Thank you.
    Brad Husick
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  11. #261
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I have a prediction:
    Lets get his on track to discuss the camera or I predict that someone my be slapped around with a wet trout.
    -bob
    www.getdpi.com
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  12. #262
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    How much more money do you think he makes if you buy? My guess is not a lot.

    Perhaps your comment was troll-ish and deserved push back. The fact remains we are not here to attack others.

    Now back to the Leica SL...

    I don't like bashing other people. So I'll leave it at this. Steve has ulterior motives, evident in the way he writes his articles. He could be the nicest guy in the world. But at the end of the day, he's a salesman. You do what you do to support your family. Nothing wrong with that. But you have to know being a public figure opens you up to criticism. And believe me, there's a lot to criticise with his work, methodology and bi-polar nature.
    Sure we're all passionate about camera gear. And sometimes opinions change. But for most of us, there is no financial gain from changing opinions and views... With him, there is, so it comes off a lot less genuine. Without getting into specifics let's just say I take notice of his less then genuine nature and I'm only a casual (if ever) viewer of his site.

    To add.. He does make money when you click and or when you purchase. For purchases it's between 2%-5% (usually). Sometimes you can get offers up to 12% But since you all think your Leica dealers make nothing on Leica sales (bullshit, but I'm going by a topic we had here a few months ago where I couldn't convince anyone of this). So I'm not going to start up with this again. Let's just say, nobody is making money off of anybody. And that everyone is honest and has no ulterior motives :P


    Anyway the SL is what it is.. A EVF camera that has a great UI and good ergonomics. It's severely lacking in native AF lenses and that's the most disappointing aspect. Also for tons cheaper you can get a A7II and adapt all your M and R lenses and end up with the same results.

    As for sharpness of the A7rII. I've noticed suspect behaviour at 100% viewing magnification (mostly with M glass. 50APO even). I do not notice this with the SL. Though to be honest, the only CMOS that looks good at 100% to my eye (both on screen and print) is the M240.. But the MP makes up for the difference in "quality" so take it as you will.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    s.

    As for sharpness of the A7rII. I've noticed suspect behaviour at 100% viewing magnification (mostly with M glass. 50APO even). I do not notice this with the SL. Though to be honest, the only CMOS that looks good at 100% to my eye (both on screen and print) is the M240.. But the MP makes up for the difference in "quality" so take it as you will.
    Could you please go more in details of this?
    Thanks

  14. #264
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Could you please go more in details of this?
    Thanks

    I hesitate to get into detail over what I've found.. It will start a Sony vs Leica bashing session. And then I'll have to run a bunch of tests to prove it. And then I'll have to fight with a bunch of people who disagree with my methodology and it really won't be worth my time/effort.

    I'll add that I'm no longer for or against Sony/Leica... The SL has severely diminished my love for Leica. And it's weird to say this because ergonomically, it's one of the most fantastic cameras.. A joy to use. Second only to the M. I actually really enjoy the SL in use, I was just expecting something different sitting in front of the computer, staring at the files (something cleaner). Maybe it needs a firmware update, maybe I need to curb my expectations.. Who knows?
    For a R user, why the heck not? It makes sense. Unless of course you don't care for the UI/ergonomics, then a A7rII or A7II makes sense also. As for the SL zoom vs other zooms (Nikon, Canon, ZA, FE, ZFE whatever, I've used them all).. I'd take the SL zoom in nice light any day of the week.

    I will add that all this has made it more clear to me then ever that I need to reduce my gear collection. Last year I sold of SOOO much stuff (mostly older film gear, but quite a bit of excess lenses/duplicates), and this year it's clear I need to do the same. But be more brutal and business like then my current passion driven consumption.

    Anyway, I'm not going to get into more detail about the A7rII vs X-Leica camera. Sorry it's just not constructive.


    Someone else who has more time to fight with people over the results is welcome to do the testing

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I hesitate to get into detail over what I've found.. It will start a Sony vs Leica bashing session. And then I'll have to run a bunch of tests to prove it. And then I'll have to fight with a bunch of people who disagree with my methodology and it really won't be worth my time/effort.
    Tell me about it! I've been there and done that - it never helps, and results are always up for interpretation (and differences small enough to encourage them)
    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I'll add that I'm no longer for or against Sony/Leica... The SL has severely diminished my love for Leica. And it's weird to say this because ergonomically, it's one of the most fantastic cameras.. A joy to use. Second only to the M. I actually really enjoy the SL in use, I was just expecting something different sitting in front of the computer, staring at the files (something cleaner). Maybe it needs a firmware update, maybe I need to curb my expectations.. Who knows?
    I find this really strange - I'm deeply impressed with the files (similarly those of the Q). I guess this stuff ends up very subjective (what do you use for processing?).

    I quite agree with you about ergonomics and use though.

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Anyway, I'm not going to get into more detail about the A7rII vs X-Leica camera. Sorry it's just not constructive.

    Someone else who has more time to fight with people over the results is welcome to do the testing
    Let's hope nobody has the time. . . .

    Just this guy you know

  16. #266
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    unhelpful
    Last edited by Bob; 14th January 2016 at 10:01.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Steve Huff's site is pretty predictable IMO. He uses exactly the same tactics as Ken Rockwell, praising some things through the roof (Sony, Olympus, Leica) while bashing others (Fuji, Panasonic).

    Plus adding once in a while some controversy which leads new people to his site. This thread is probably quite good for him

    And if you don't agree with him he will block you as Amin says, even if you are not being insulting, I have exactly the same experience...

    And I will keep my personal opinion about his other website to myself. Feel free to judge for yourself...:

    I was attacked by an Evil Spirit or Entity. See the video. | Huff Paranormal
    Steve Huff is possessed by an Evil Spirit! This explains everything.
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  18. #268
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Additional Personal Thoughts On The SL:

    Not all that long ago Leica had most all of it's golden eggs in one basket ... The M system. It had to abandon the R system for financial reasons at the time, not to mention that the DMR was a collaboration between Imacon and Leica, and Imacon merged with Hasselblad effectively ending the collaboration. The M was difficult to convert to digital because of the sensor technology required ... The M8 was a cropped frame, lower meg, IR challenged, wobbly legged entry at best. That single basket of eggs showed Leica's vulnerability ... (history also showed how important faithful Leica Rangefinder customers were in helping bridge the gap ... a rangefinder is a rangefinder is a rangefinder!)

    Enter the White Knight ... Kaufman Ka$h and vision.

    Leica begins diversifying with bigger cameras and smaller cameras while continuing to evolve it's main M system.

    The SL is just another in that line of diversified thought aimed directly at a select audience ... not everyone


    So it is natural that there will be those enthusiasts for whom it fits a need and a certain pride of ownership, and those who question it ... i.e..; "Two different views on the Leica SL".

    Leica has avoided the megapixel race to the loud opposition of those who place a lot of credence on "more is better". The FF 18 meg M9 CCD only evolved to 24 meg CMOS. The S has stayed 37.8 meg through 3 iterations of the camera including the latest CMOS version. I happen to agree with them.

    So a FF 24 meg SL is fine with me, and probably fits the "real world needs" of most photographers even though they would NEVER admit it. IMO, "Coulda/Woulda/Shoulda" has way to much sway on the decision process these days. So people get more than they need for 2% of their "maybe/you never know" work at the detriment of the other 98% of use. But that's just me I guess.

    Leica is slow. New Leica systems aren't for type AAA personalities who have their zipper down before they get to the urinal. Early adopters of the S system needed the patience of Job. The S is a dual shutter camera, but the CS lenses took forever to be available. I'll probably have a beard to the floor before this SL system has a good range of AF Leica SL dedicated optics.

    However, I could easily put this camera to work today. All I need for weddings/event and corporate assignments is a 24 meg SL camera and this 24-90 zoom with Leica's new SF40 or SF64 speed light.

    It wouldn't be a practical financial choice, nor a responsible one (being so new) ... but that never stopped me

    - Marc
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  19. #269
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    So people get more than they need for 2% of their "maybe/you never know" work at the detriment of the other 98% of use.
    Excellent summary of the current dogma. Well said!

    -Matt

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Steve Huff is possessed by an Evil Spirit! This explains everything.
    Not sure he is the only one possessed.

  21. #271
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Hey, bucko, that's exactly what you implied. Perhaps you need to crawl out from beneath GetDPI's skirt and contact Steve Huff directly?
    Like others have said Steve blocked me from his site when my comment didn't line up with his marketing messaging. This was about the same time Seal was writing posts on his site calling anyone who didn't use the M9 fools.

  22. #272
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    "However, I could easily put this camera to work today. All I need for weddings/event and corporate assignments is a 24 meg SL camera and this 24-90 zoom with Leica's new SF40 or SF64 speed light."


    this is the most constructive comment I have read on this thread in a week.

    C'mon people, if you don't like another site, get over it. Don't go there. And stop whining. Nobody is forcing you to support another site. If you'd like to start a thread in the gossip section on "Why I hate so-and-so" then do it.
    Brad Husick
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  23. #273
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Additional Personal Thoughts On The SL:

    Not all that long ago Leica had most all of it's golden eggs in one basket ... The M system. It had to abandon the R system for financial reasons at the time, not to mention that the DMR was a collaboration between Imacon and Leica, and Imacon merged with Hasselblad effectively ending the collaboration. The M was difficult to convert to digital because of the sensor technology required ... The M8 was a cropped frame, lower meg, IR challenged, wobbly legged entry at best. That single basket of eggs showed Leica's vulnerability ... (history also showed how important faithful Leica Rangefinder customers were in helping bridge the gap ... a rangefinder is a rangefinder is a rangefinder!)

    Enter the White Knight ... Kaufman Ka$h and vision.

    Leica begins diversifying with bigger cameras and smaller cameras while continuing to evolve it's main M system.

    The SL is just another in that line of diversified thought aimed directly at a select audience ... not everyone


    So it is natural that there will be those enthusiasts for whom it fits a need and a certain pride of ownership, and those who question it ... i.e..; "Two different views on the Leica SL".

    Leica has avoided the megapixel race to the loud opposition of those who place a lot of credence on "more is better". The FF 18 meg M9 CCD only evolved to 24 meg CMOS. The S has stayed 37.8 meg through 3 iterations of the camera including the latest CMOS version. I happen to agree with them.

    So a FF 24 meg SL is fine with me, and probably fits the "real world needs" of most photographers even though they would NEVER admit it. IMO, "Coulda/Woulda/Shoulda" has way to much sway on the decision process these days. So people get more than they need for 2% of their "maybe/you never know" work at the detriment of the other 98% of use. But that's just me I guess.

    Leica is slow. New Leica systems aren't for type AAA personalities who have their zipper down before they get to the urinal. Early adopters of the S system needed the patience of Job. The S is a dual shutter camera, but the CS lenses took forever to be available. I'll probably have a beard to the floor before this SL system has a good range of AF Leica SL dedicated optics.

    However, I could easily put this camera to work today. All I need for weddings/event and corporate assignments is a 24 meg SL camera and this 24-90 zoom with Leica's new SF40 or SF64 speed light.

    It wouldn't be a practical financial choice, nor a responsible one (being so new) ... but that never stopped me

    - Marc

    Very sound logic.. I was the hopeful optimist like you. Until I bough the system. And almost got suckered into buying the flash. It's terrible BTW. I have a i40 m4/3 version of the flash.. It works better on the SL in A mode then the SL's dedicated SF-40 does in TTL mode. If this (TTL) isn't a deal breaker for you, there are tons of cheaper better flashes then the i40 or SF-40 and especially then the SF64. I could recommend a few.
    I was so disappointed the day I tried the SF-40.
    A firmware update is definitely needed in order to make use of the TTL aspect of the flash. Heck, I think Leica should BEG profoto to co-develop a TTL-SL remote for Leica and the B1. That would be fantastic

    BTW, I've used the camera now on serval jobs. Nothing wrong with it. It gets the job done for 80% of the work I do.. Unfortunately I bought it with the hopes of being able to do that other 20% since that's where my S-system is lacking. Remember I wanted the SL as a replacement for my DSLR systems. To bad the SL doesn't have one of those Canon 600EXRT lasers built into it, instead of that useless orange search light.

    Again not a bad camera... I just think it needs 2-3 native AF prime lenses to be the system I want it to be. Heck if you count the Q as an SL lens, you're doing ok.. I find the Q to focus faster better and more accurately then anything I have owned, save for maybe the DARKEST of fast moving situations.. Where even a 1Dx would have problems if not for the EXRT600 speed light's laser grid thing. The Q is also great in backlight.. Something the SL is admittedly good with.

    BTW, it's probably the best camera I've used as far as locking focus in extreme backlit situations... NO problems from the camera.. None what so ever.. Very important for outdoor weddings if you're style is what's currently in fashion.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Tell me about it! I've been there and done that - it never helps, and results are always up for interpretation (and differences small enough to encourage them)


    I find this really strange - I'm deeply impressed with the files (similarly those of the Q). I guess this stuff ends up very subjective (what do you use for processing?).

    I quite agree with you about ergonomics and use though.



    Let's hope nobody has the time. . . .

    Jonathan, I'm really unsure what I dislike about the SL. I'm not trying to be difficult, or to have a contrary view. I'm just not happy with the files. Very similar reason to why I'm unhappy with the Sony sensors I've used thus far.

    It's almost as if, I've used a better sensor in optimum light. But then I'm given new sensors that aren't as good in optimum light, but are good in other situations... Almost like a trade off of sorts. It doesn't feel bad, but like I'm trading something more important for something less important.

    I sort of felt that way about switching from the M9 to the M240. But the cleanliness of the sensor made it acceptable to have a less contrasty OOC raw and less appealing colors. But now that I'm so use to the M240 colors, I know something's missing when I use other sensors. I use to think I was being a brand snob... I tried to convince myself of this by buying Sony cameras and spending $$$ on profiling hardware/software. Trying my best to get things to look the same. But in the end, I couldn't jive with Sony sensors (I couldn't even get the colors to match). And it's a similar feeling with this SL. Maybe time will fix it, but in order for that to happen I have to abandon my M240 cameras.. Like sell them all off (similar to what I did with the M9). And I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that for a camera like the SL.

    The S-006 is different. It doesn't feel like anything else I've used. I wouldn't say it feels like film, I wouldn't say it feels like digital. I would say it feels like unique technology. Whereas the S-007 feels like digital (good quality digital, but digital).


    On another note. I brought my SL out with me to an event tonight (personal, I wasn't working). Usually I bring an M.. It's a cool fashion accessory. People talk to me about it. People smile when I take photos of them (even if I don't know them). Girls and guys totally dig the M-P.
    Tonight was different. I felt almost embarrassed to bring the SL+M lens to my eye. People looked away. Nobody smiled at me.. Worst candid pictures ever. Strangely awkward night for me. Though on the flip side.. I walked around with the SL+zoom the other day. And I think everyone thought I was a tourist. Nobody batted an eye when I shot them with my big zoom lens. They kinda just minded their own business... But it still didn't feel as raw and candid as it does when I'm shooting with the M.. But it wasn't like tonights bad experience.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    ADam007 wrote---->>>>A firmware update is definitely needed in order to make use of the TTL aspect of the flash. Heck, I think Leica should BEG profoto to co-develop a TTL-SL remote for Leica and the B1. That would be fantastic<<<<<

    As far back as I can remember when the SF-24 was 1st released and subsequently different Leica bodies and flashes all capable of TTL, I rarely have experienced any up to the task of consistantly "good" TTL flash exposure. Sometimes it was downright awful and I always resorted to A mode (with any given portable flash unit used with a TTL capable Leica body. I often reached for an older Nikon or Metz flash (for Nikon) capable of A mode. Its unfortunate, for basic consistant TTL flash performance in 2016, it should be a given that it will be accurate and simply dependable.

    I also agree with your perceptions that image output from certain Leica digital cameras felt more like film in many ways than some other Leica bodies. The S006 vs 007 is a good example and I too felt to a degree, somewhat the same with the M9 vs. M240. Whether one wants to ascribe that to CCD vs. CMOS, associated electronics along with firmware, I'll defer that to past and future discussions.

    We come back to the "no one camera is a " do all, do everything" photographic tool nor is a given camera going to be unversally liked". Compromises and acceptance of thrm often have to be made, especially when a client and job is on the line as well as.well.as ones budget. Our perceptions of whats acceptable and needs at a given time photographically speaking, also come into play.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Jonathan, I'm really unsure what I dislike about the SL. I'm not trying to be difficult, or to have a contrary view. I'm just not happy with the files. Very similar reason to why I'm unhappy with the Sony sensors I've used thus far.
    Are the files different from the Leica Q files? I really like the Leica Q.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Steve Huff's site is pretty predictable IMO.
    ...

    And I will keep my personal opinion about his other website to myself. Feel free to judge for yourself...:

    I was attacked by an Evil Spirit or Entity. See the video. | Huff Paranormal
    Wow!
    He sells the ghost detectors! How wonderful!
    Does he sell an Encyclopedia?

    I understand that many people love the enthusiastic approach to the equipment and want to get an assurance from a known and knowing person. But Ghosts? Seriously!?!?

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Hi there,
    on thing I dont understand: if you are not happy with the files, why would you hope for the 50 and other native lenses. They will not change anything in regards of the files/the sensor.

    My feeling is the files from the SL are a bit more neutral and cooler than those from the M when one chooses the standard settings in LR, but for my part I feel they are pretty good.

    I dont have the S006 any more but the S007, and yes, with the smooth transitions and shallow DOF it is still a step above the SL. I dont know yet if I like the S007 low ISO files 100% as much as the ones from the S006, but so far I am pretty happy even with the low ISO files. And the ability to use the S in high ISO range is just a big plus for me.

    Back to the SL, I find the SL files in terms of color are closer to the S than the M files.

    One big advantage of the SL I see for people who also use other Leica systems.
    I can put my M 21/35 or 50mm lenses on the L in lower light, or in the future I could out the S 100/2.0 on the SL for portrait (even though I guess I would rather use it on the S).

    With the 24-90 the SL is great for me when I go outside with the kids, just the range I need, weatherproof, and fast. The user interface is similar to the S, so easy to adapt.

    Your experience with the M vs SL "shooting" people. I sometimes wonder if this is more in the photographers head and not so much the people who are photographed. A friend of mine shoots professional with Leica S - weddings, events, industrial, and the S is even larger than the SL. He gets very open and natural images.
    But I know what you mean, I also dont feel good targeting a monster lens on people I dont know.

    The T and M are great for such occasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Jonathan, I'm really unsure what I dislike about the SL. I'm not trying to be difficult, or to have a contrary view. I'm just not happy with the files. Very similar reason to why I'm unhappy with the Sony sensors I've used thus far.

    It's almost as if, I've used a better sensor in optimum light. But then I'm given new sensors that aren't as good in optimum light, but are good in other situations... Almost like a trade off of sorts. It doesn't feel bad, but like I'm trading something more important for something less important.

    I sort of felt that way about switching from the M9 to the M240. But the cleanliness of the sensor made it acceptable to have a less contrasty OOC raw and less appealing colors. But now that I'm so use to the M240 colors, I know something's missing when I use other sensors. I use to think I was being a brand snob... I tried to convince myself of this by buying Sony cameras and spending $$$ on profiling hardware/software. Trying my best to get things to look the same. But in the end, I couldn't jive with Sony sensors (I couldn't even get the colors to match). And it's a similar feeling with this SL. Maybe time will fix it, but in order for that to happen I have to abandon my M240 cameras.. Like sell them all off (similar to what I did with the M9). And I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that for a camera like the SL.

    The S-006 is different. It doesn't feel like anything else I've used. I wouldn't say it feels like film, I wouldn't say it feels like digital. I would say it feels like unique technology. Whereas the S-007 feels like digital (good quality digital, but digital).


    On another note. I brought my SL out with me to an event tonight (personal, I wasn't working). Usually I bring an M.. It's a cool fashion accessory. People talk to me about it. People smile when I take photos of them (even if I don't know them). Girls and guys totally dig the M-P.
    Tonight was different. I felt almost embarrassed to bring the SL+M lens to my eye. People looked away. Nobody smiled at me.. Worst candid pictures ever. Strangely awkward night for me. Though on the flip side.. I walked around with the SL+zoom the other day. And I think everyone thought I was a tourist. Nobody batted an eye when I shot them with my big zoom lens. They kinda just minded their own business... But it still didn't feel as raw and candid as it does when I'm shooting with the M.. But it wasn't like tonights bad experience.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Wow, this thread is still going. Been out past the "back forty" and back again; I have no idea where all the bile and nonsense centered around this camera is coming from.

    For me: Two months on using the Leica SL (almost exclusively with the R lenses I bought it to use with) and I'm delighted with it. The DNG files are excellent and process beautifully in LR6.3 (and even in Apple's Photos app). Even the JPEGs are right in there.

    I don't see much difference in the quality of the files compared to the M-P typ 240 ... I had that out over the weekend and the exact same technique used in processing them processes the SL files perfectly (as in, I made a preset from an M-P file and applied it to a similar subject matter SL file to get a nearly identical result). And, as I've said before, I like what comes out of the M-P much more than what came out of other cameras when using these lenses. The SL goes beyond the M-P.

    I like the ergonomics and controls of the SL, even moreso than the ergonomics of the M-P. There's enough grip and body space for my fingers to use the camera the way I always used a 35mm film SLR ... I'm not constantly dodging buttons, knobs, and dials (or hitting them inadvertently). Fitted with 24/35/50/90/135 mm lenses, it's very much like carrying my old favorite Nikon F3.

    For my photography, 24 Mpixel is enough, if not already more than enough. End of discussion.

    The only thing that I haven't quite absorbed into my consciousness yet is the SL's exposure behavior with AutoISO. On the SL, the AutoISO setting for minimum exposure is a hard limit: It does not override and run a longer exposure when illumination is low. I have to remember to switch to a fixed ISO setting in very low light, and I often forget still. And then I forget to switch it back to AutoISO. Eh, I'll get it eventually; it hasn't been much of a problem in my shooting.

    I haven't used it with flash yet, I haven't done anything with video yet, and I haven't taken the dedicated 24-90 lens out much yet either. I have spent a lot of time enjoying it set to square format with the ultra-wide 15mm and 19mm lenses: it reminds me so much of shooting with the Hasselblad SWC that way, but with accurate TTL focusing.

    I have to say that, at this point, I couldn't care less whether anyone else on the planet likes the SL or whether anyone else's favorite camera du jour performs better or worse. With two months and a couple thousand exposures worth of using it behind me, I like the SL: it's the right camera for me, and it makes beautiful images for me. If I could have only one camera, it's the one I'd choose and I'd regret nothing about tossing the rest (although I would surely miss my Polaroid SX-70s).

    Thank you, Leica, for producing the SL.

    G
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Wow, this thread is still going. Been out past the "back forty" and back again; I have no idea where all the bile and nonsense centered around this camera is coming from.

    For me: Two months on using the Leica SL (almost exclusively with the R lenses I bought it to use with) and I'm delighted with it. The DNG files are excellent and process beautifully in LR6.3 (and even in Apple's Photos app). Even the JPEGs are right in there.

    I don't see much difference in the quality of the files compared to the M-P typ 240 ... I had that out over the weekend and the exact same technique used in processing them processes the SL files perfectly (as in, I made a preset from an M-P file and applied it to a similar subject matter SL file to get a nearly identical result). And, as I've said before, I like what comes out of the M-P much more than what came out of other cameras when using these lenses. The SL goes beyond the M-P.

    I like the ergonomics and controls of the SL, even moreso than the ergonomics of the M-P. There's enough grip and body space for my fingers to use the camera the way I always used a 35mm film SLR ... I'm not constantly dodging buttons, knobs, and dials (or hitting them inadvertently). Fitted with 24/35/50/90/135 mm lenses, it's very much like carrying my old favorite Nikon F3.

    For my photography, 24 Mpixel is enough, if not already more than enough. End of discussion.

    The only thing that I haven't quite absorbed into my consciousness yet is the SL's exposure behavior with AutoISO. On the SL, the AutoISO setting for minimum exposure is a hard limit: It does not override and run a longer exposure when illumination is low. I have to remember to switch to a fixed ISO setting in very low light, and I often forget still. And then I forget to switch it back to AutoISO. Eh, I'll get it eventually; it hasn't been much of a problem in my shooting.

    I haven't used it with flash yet, I haven't done anything with video yet, and I haven't taken the dedicated 24-90 lens out much yet either. I have spent a lot of time enjoying it set to square format with the ultra-wide 15mm and 19mm lenses: it reminds me so much of shooting with the Hasselblad SWC that way, but with accurate TTL focusing.

    I have to say that, at this point, I couldn't care less whether anyone else on the planet likes the SL or whether anyone else's favorite camera du jour performs better or worse. With two months and a couple thousand exposures worth of using it behind me, I like the SL: it's the right camera for me, and it makes beautiful images for me. If I could have only one camera, it's the one I'd choose and I'd regret nothing about tossing the rest (although I would surely miss my Polaroid SX-70s).

    Thank you, Leica, for producing the SL.

    G

    The "hard limit" on the shutter speed is one of the better features of the SL. So many camera's don't do this and it drives me nuts.
    I'd rather a grainy photo because I had to bump it one or two extra stops in LR then a blurry image.

    I was just expecting better from Leica. That's all.. It's not a bad camera, and I do use it for work.


    As for Tom's question. The 50Lux-L might have some qualities that endear me to the system. Because right now, I'm faster with RF focusing. So M lenses are pointless on the SL (though pretty easy to use w/the updated firmware). The 24-90 although a good zoom, doesn't suit the purpose of buying into the SL system. And I love the S-006 sensor so much, I don't even use the S-007. So although I'm curious how the 100/2 will look on the SL (and how fast it'll focus), I know I'm going to prefer the colors of the S006.

    Realistically for me. The SL is a way to get the M colors and quality (quality being rendering, bokeh, signature, drawing style, whatever etc) in an AF package. I was hoping that the sensor would be a little more to my liking. Maybe they'll fix it, maybe not. Maybe the 50Lux-L will be amazing... Maybe it'll be another Sigma Art disaster. Time will tell..


    And about shooting... I had a small M lens on the SL.. I think it has more to do with the look, and peoples associations. I've been shooting events/weddings etc for a long time. I can tell when something's off.. Tonight, it was the camera.

    IF I were at a wedding, and I were the known photographer. It wouldn't have been a problem. But tonight I was off duty.. Just some random fellow with a camera. In these situations, the camera matters. At least here in Asia it does

    Anyway, it's 5:30am... Just finished editing some client work. Off to bed before the birds wake up!!

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Wow, this thread is still going. Been out past the "back forty" and back again; I have no idea where all the bile and nonsense centered around this camera is coming from.
    Perhaps an evil spirit has invaded this thread. Might a Huff Paranormal group session help?

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    The "hard limit" on the shutter speed is one of the better features of the SL. So many camera's don't do this and it drives me nuts.
    I'd rather a grainy photo because I had to bump it one or two extra stops in LR then a blurry image.
    On my other cameras, I just watch the shutter speed when light levels get low to prevent getting blurred images. What tricks me with the SL is that it always shows the minimum shutter speed according to the AutoISO settings, and that nets underexposure unless I take a moment to look at the exposure preview when I half-press the shutter release.

    I recall one of my other cameras (maybe the Panasonic G1) had a universal hard lower limit on the shutter speed when in AutoISO ... it was always going to be 1/30 second. With a 40-90 mm lens, this meant that I was getting blurs and, after that, underexposure. I figured out an easy way to work that one.

    I'll get it in time. The camera works so well 98.9% of the time that it hasn't been a big thing to navigate in my consciousness. ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I was just expecting better from Leica. That's all.. It's not a bad camera, and I do use it for work.
    ...
    I think that's called "Damning it with faint praise."

    G

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    On my other cameras, I just watch the shutter speed when light levels get low to prevent getting blurred images. What tricks me with the SL is that it always shows the minimum shutter speed according to the AutoISO settings, and that nets underexposure unless I take a moment to look at the exposure preview when I half-press the shutter release.

    I recall one of my other cameras (maybe the Panasonic G1) had a universal hard lower limit on the shutter speed when in AutoISO ... it was always going to be 1/30 second. With a 40-90 mm lens, this meant that I was getting blurs and, after that, underexposure. I figured out an easy way to work that one.

    I'll get it in time. The camera works so well 98.9% of the time that it hasn't been a big thing to navigate in my consciousness. ;-)



    I think that's called "Damning it with faint praise."

    G


    Yeah to be honest it has fouled me up once or twice already. BUT the meter turns red and it's pretty noticeable. And I like how it responds, more to what I hoped the past cameras I've had would do. So now that it does do this, I just make a mental note to check the meter.
    Besides 90% of the time I'm shooting manual exposure as I like to keep things every so slightly under exposed. I'm finding it difficult to do anything with skin tons when I hit the exposure spot on. They tend to turn a weird peach color. Like the actual color of peaches, not the Crayola color, over here in Asia at least with the terrible Singapore quality of light. And then the highlights on the skin look bad, even when processing from RAW.

    That and since no TTL... I'm using manual flash, so I keep everything manual for the sake of sharpening my skills and making my life difficult


    As far as the false praise... Well it's an early adopter thing. It'll even itself out over time. Maybe a year. Just in time for the 50Lux-L.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Heck, I think Leica should BEG profoto to co-develop a TTL-SL remote for Leica and the B1.
    They absolutely should. I asked my S sales rep to do exactly this and also wrote an email to Profoto with the same message.
    I think the B1 and B2 strobes are selling like hot cakes and the availability of TTL controllers for Nikon and Canon cameras must be a pretty strong argument to stay with those systems for many photographers who shoot events, weddings or any other situations where the people being photographed do not "model" patiently and you need to get the first shot exposed correctly, irrespective of modifier and flash-to-subject distance.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Regarding auto-iso...
    IMO one has allways one risk - if there is not enough light and the camera has reached both the exp time Limit and the ISO Limit.
    If exp time becomes longer the risk would be blurred Images if the subjects moves, if the exp stays at the Limit there is the risk of underexposure.
    An underexposed Image one could still save in post, a blurred Image not.
    So for my taste I prefer the way it is solved with the SL.
    Ideally one could define a function. For example stay shoter than 1/250 as Long as you are ISO1600 and lower, stay at 1/125 and shoter for ISO 1600 -3200, etc etc.
    But that might be a conflict with the Goal to Keep the user Interface simple.

    I use AutoISO in bright and medium light, if it is getting very dark I set ISO manually or at least one Needs to watch the best compromise between ISO / exp time and f-stop.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Regarding Flash, Besides Nikon I have never been so happy with digital TTL Flash photography. Neither with Canon, nor with Pentax and also not with Leica M and S.
    Often Auto works better if one has a good Flash.
    But I think TTL should work better, it is not so important for me because I mostly prefer natural light, but if they promote a camera as a professional camera it should work well with TTL Flash.
    Promotion and real world differs.
    What I also dont like is that Leicas seels flashes from Nissin, Metz etc. for a premium Price without offering any additional value. They should rather allow Nissin to sell a Version with Leica contacts or sell the Flash for the same Price like Nissin.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    For now I am happy with my Q and the results.


    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...louis-foubare/
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    For now I am happy with my Q and the results.


    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...louis-foubare/
    Post pics and keep the Q thread active. Leica should take advantage of the inexplicable withdrawal of the RX1R II from the market. Start a promo, bring down the price a bit, etc.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Regarding auto-iso...
    IMO one has allways one risk - if there is not enough light and the camera has reached both the exp time Limit and the ISO Limit.
    If exp time becomes longer the risk would be blurred Images if the subjects moves, if the exp stays at the Limit there is the risk of underexposure.
    An underexposed Image one could still save in post, a blurred Image not.
    So for my taste I prefer the way it is solved with the SL.
    Ideally one could define a function. For example stay shoter than 1/250 as Long as you are ISO1600 and lower, stay at 1/125 and shoter for ISO 1600 -3200, etc etc.
    But that might be a conflict with the Goal to Keep the user Interface simple.

    I use AutoISO in bright and medium light, if it is getting very dark I set ISO manually or at least one Needs to watch the best compromise between ISO / exp time and f-stop.
    That's basically the strategy I've adopted as well. It works well, I just have to remember to watch the readouts and check the exposure simulation when I'm getting near the low light limits.

    I also use manual exposure settings and a hand-held meter occasionally. When I do that with the SL, it feels like piloting a starship with astrolab and sextant. Of course, I can just guess and get the exposure within a fraction of a stop fast enough. ;-)

    G

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Regarding Flash ...
    I mostly use manual flash units and a hand-held flash and ambient meter for flash work, mostly on tabletop setups. Or, if shooting a party or other gathering, I set up a couple of flashes with radio remotes on stands, then walk around snapping test exposures until I get a feel for the right aperture to use in various spots in the space (manual exposure on camera).

    The only times a dedicated TTL flash seems really handy for me is when I'm working with a long extension for close up work, etc. I do that so rarely I haven't invested in any but one dedicated flash in the past 20 years (an inexpensive Olympus FL-36 that's worked with all my FT and mFT cameras).

    Since I'm phasing out and selling off everything but the Leica gear now, I'll probably pick up the SF40 just to have one dedicated flash unit handy. How well it works is the question mark I want to answer first.

    And I agree, re-selling Nissin flash units at a huge markup with no change other than the Leica flash protocol seems a bit over the top, just like selling the cheaply made SL remote for $200 when any third party remote sold for $10 would do as well if the connector weren't proprietary. You're basically paying $200 for a $0.40 connector.

    But I guess they have to make their profits from somewhere.

    G

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    They are not that bad.

    Try these:

    250 Euros for a thumbs grip ( TGA-1 duimgreep voor Cyber-shot® RX1 | TGA-1 | Sony NL )

    180 Euros for a lens hood ( LHP-1 zonnekap voor Cyber-shot® RX1 | LHP-1 | Sony NL )

    Day light robbery!

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I stopped into Leica Store Miami today. Tried the SL. That viewfinder is simply gorgeous. Leaps and bounds above the view through the a7rII. That is almost enough to tip me over. But no IBIS is a big deal, especially with my recent 180 R acquisition.

    On the other hand being able to use the small Leica wides without smearing...

    It sure is tempting.

    Dave
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I stopped into Leica Store Miami today. Tried the SL. That viewfinder is simply gorgeous. Leaps and bounds above the view through the a7rII. That is almost enough to tip me over. But no IBIS is a big deal, especially with my recent 180 R acquisition.

    On the other hand being able to use the small Leica wides without smearing...

    It sure is tempting.
    The Elmar-R 180/4 is light and small, makes very sharp photos even hand-held at reasonable shutter speeds (1/200 sec and up).

    My Elmarit-R 180/2.8 v1 is huge and heavy, as is the Telyt-R 250/4 v1, and either with a doubler fitted is too long for hand-holding for me, regardless of image stabilization: I use a monopod or a sturdy tripod. :-)

    G

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The Elmar-R 180/4 is light and small, makes very sharp photos even hand-held at reasonable shutter speeds (1/200 sec and up).

    My Elmarit-R 180/2.8 v1 is huge and heavy, as is the Telyt-R 250/4 v1, and either with a doubler fitted is too long for hand-holding for me, regardless of image stabilization: I use a monopod or a sturdy tripod. :-)

    G
    It's the APO Elmarit R, but you make a good point: would I really hand-hold that often even with IBIS? Perhaps not.

    At any rate, I really took to the SL. Time will tell if that is just GAS or if the SL really is something I could move to. The zoom is too big for me, and I suspect most native lenses will be the same.

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    It's the APO Elmarit R, but you make a good point: would I really hand-hold that often even with IBIS? Perhaps not.
    Actually, Godfrey's talking about the earlier models, of which there were two versions. I've hand-held the APO Elmarit-R 180, but now that I think of it, I was using it on an Olympus E-M5 vII with IBIS.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    At any rate, I really took to the SL. Time will tell if that is just GAS or if the SL really is something I could move to. The zoom is too big for me, and I suspect most native lenses will be the same.

    Dave
    I was the same - but even with two 6 week 'trial' periods I was still hooked . . and bought one, and 3 months on I still love it. . . . and the zoom isn't too big (the crucial test is whether my 63 year old stick arms can carry it one handed all day - and they can).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    However, I could easily put this camera to work today. All I need for weddings/event and corporate assignments is a 24 meg SL camera and this 24-90 zoom with Leica's new SF40 or SF64 speed light.

    It wouldn't be a practical financial choice, nor a responsible one (being so new) ... but that never stopped me

    - Marc
    Not sure about the flash (I don't own a flash ) But it 'being so new' doesn't seem to be so bad - 3 months in and there aren't any nasty reports, and although the firmware could do with a few tweaks, basically it works, reliably, fast, consistently and without upset.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    In the end, I think the SL has great potential and I'd love to own one ... but I went with adding the A7R-II to my Sony kit because a camera in this general area of use needs to be more complete right now for to me to spend that kind of cash on. The Leica MM and now even the S systems are more complete and fill my needs better. All the rest is handled by the Sony.

    IBIS was a major factor in my decision ... perhaps a wee bit less important with a 24 meg sensor, but at 43 meg it seems to come into its own. Frankly, I thought it worked wonders on the Sony A900 and A99 which were also 24 meg. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of IBIS, or derides it compared to lens stabilization, they should mount the Sony AF 500mm Mirror on any Sony camera with IBIS and watch it work

    Maybe a SL is in my future when it gets fleshed out more, and the next iteration brings some additional features. Best to those who are enjoying it now!

    - Marc
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Regarding Flash, Besides Nikon I have never been so happy with digital TTL Flash photography. Neither with Canon, nor with Pentax and also not with Leica M and S.
    Often Auto works better if one has a good Flash.
    But I think TTL should work better, it is not so important for me because I mostly prefer natural light, but if they promote a camera as a professional camera it should work well with TTL Flash.
    Promotion and real world differs.
    What I also dont like is that Leicas seels flashes from Nissin, Metz etc. for a premium Price without offering any additional value. They should rather allow Nissin to sell a Version with Leica contacts or sell the Flash for the same Price like Nissin.
    As a side note: This has been a big issue for me for a long time. Historically, Leica has lagged badly in the area of dedicated flash which is a mainstay for many professional assignments ... especially event work where available light, natural or otherwise, can be a poor second choice to the proper use of flash (emphasis on "Proper").

    To make matters worse, most 3rd party lighting innovations go to Nikon or Canon first, and sometimes never reach Leica, Sony, Oly, etc. Perfect example of this is Profoto B1 and B2 TTL strobes (now with HSS). Only Canon and Nikon ... not even Phase One!

    Canon, and now Nikon, have proprietary radio triggered speed-lights, while those from Sony and Leica remain semi-useless line-of-sight IR from the Jurassic age. Nissin has recently introduced radio TTL for Sony, but reviews show it to be too unreliable for paying work. Nothing for Leica.

    IMO, digital flash is just as good as in the film era, but with film the lab was saving people from their misuse and mistakes ... where they are more apparent when you are the one processing the images.

    In fact, I think digital is the best thing that ever happened to flash work.

    The best flash enabled camera from Leica to date has been the S. Even then you have to make sure the Leica SF58 is set to HSS TTL or it won't work



    - Marc
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Just posted much of this on LUF - may be of interest here as well.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    I have just bought the 24-90SL to go with the SL body, and took it on a long weekend to Bologna. I deliberately tried it as a single package for travel and street, knowing that normally I would take my M240 and M lenses (probably 28, 50 and 75). I had a Billingham 1.4 bag to carry it around in, but in practice normally carried it around in one hand using a Spider Pro hand strap, hanging at my side. I taped over the logo and red dot, just to avoid catching the eye. I typically used it in AutoWB, AutoISO, AFs, A mode, wide open by default.


    My conclusions were:


    - Carrying it around all day (with breaks for coffee, lunch, wine etc) was not a major problem, although I noticed the weight.
    - Leaving the lens cap off caused me no worries, as the lens hood is big enough. Like the Apo-Summicron-M 75, but unlike the Apo-Summicron-M 50, whose hood is a bit too small to provide physical protection IMO.
    - I'm a biggish guy, and I didn't feel I stood out particularly with SL in my hand at my side (i.e. I am more noticeable as a person than as a photographer). My wife confirmed this. OTOH, I did not feel particularly discreet swinging the camera to my eye and holding it there, and I suspect I was more noticeable than I would have been with the M, particularly in more confined places, such as cafes and crowds.
    - In normal scenarios, the SL was blindingly fast to focus and expose, quicker than the M, even allowing for not changing lenses.
    - I found spot focusing was often a pain, because the spot often ended up on a blank surface which did not give a quick focus, and moving the body or spot location was distracting (once you've fixed composition, you don't want to move the camera, and moving the spot often leapfrogged the point you wanted to focus on). Small patch focusing was ideal for most cases, and using the joystick to move it was a "joy".
    - Occasionally I felt the need to switch to manual focusing (through railings etc), and I would really appreciate a single button press option to switch from AF to MF and back. Hope this comes in future.
    - I used Exposure Compensation a lot; assigning it to the top right button was OK, but in my case the hand strap made reaching the button with my thumb not instant. Future firmware should give one the option to directly assign it to a dial. In fact re-assigning dials for different uses should be enabled.
    - In very low light, such as dark streets at night, AF would hunt and occasionally fail (TBH, I didn't think to try Multi-Field AF).
    - I would really like a quick way to reset the focus patch to the centre. Eventually I got into the habit of resetting it after each shot, but a single button press, or possibly auto recentre would be useful.
    - The SL lens appears to be flare-proof. The weather was bitterly cold, but without a cloud in the sky. I took lots of shots into the sun of Bologna's photogenic arcades and their shadows; I can't recall any ruined by flare.
    - I set the camera on "no auto review" and sleep mode, and found a battery lasted most of a day. Wake-up delay was as irritating as on the M240, and about the same: 2 secs.
    - The one total failure | had was walking into the tropical house at the botanic gardens from -2C outside. Condensation made it impossible to photograph the orchids!
    - When speed of reaction is not an issue, composition on the SL is easier because of its zoom. I found I cropped my images much less than I typically do with the M.
    - Using a hand strap with the SL was fine, but it limits finger movement a bit. As well as making it a stretch to reach the TR button with my thumb, I occasionally pressed the rear dial and changed mode without noticing. Not Leica's fault, but needs watching.
    - Apart from issues mentioned above, I found the ergonomics of the SL exceptionally simple, intuitive and quick compared to a multi-button, multi-option, random layout alternative. (I have the OMD EM5ii, which is supposed to be one of the better ones for ergonomics).


    Would I drop the M in favour of the SL for a similar trip in future? No, the M is smaller, lighter and more discreet, and in principle can take the same shots. The greater speed of AF is only one element in capturing the right shot at the right time, and the slightly easier composition with the M (no zoom to fiddle with and distract) combined with the slightly extended moment before a subject notices you, are real benefits of the M.
    The SL worked exceptionally well, though, for such an application as this.


    Whichever you have, you don't have to worry!

  50. #300
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    As a side note: This has been a big issue for me for a long time. Historically, Leica has lagged badly in the area of dedicated flash which is a mainstay for many professional assignments ... especially event work where available light, natural or otherwise, can be a poor second choice to the proper use of flash (emphasis on "Proper").
    ...
    Curious. Flash was never much of an issue to me when I was doing event work. I had some clients that refused to allow any flash use at all (because it would be distracting, because it would ruin their simultaneous video reportage, etc) and other clients who were interested in the best stills I could make such that for them I could set up manual flash units on radio remote triggers beforehand and scope the exposure needs. In the latter cases, my shooting was done with the camera on manual exposure with the settings I'd developed for the space.

    Far as I've seen, Nikon has the best automated, dedicated flash system of anyone out there, and I understand the value for some photographers. But for me, it's never been a problem—most of my professional use of flash has been for table top product photography and a simple, manual setup works very well for that.

    G

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