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Thread: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

  1. #51
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Lets face it, there are really only four issues here. SNIP
    Actually, I really think there are only 2-1/2... 1) Lenses, 2) accurate profiles for either LR or C1, preferably BOTHa and 1/2) Keep enough replacement bodies on hand you can do an immediate turn-around to send out a working body whilst the customer's is getting WARRANTY repair --- in this way, Leica could continue to take as long they wanted with the repairs. Heck, that might even motivate them to speed up turn-arounds or tighten up outbound QC. Or both...

    If those were all in place, the price would not be a barrier --- IMO the folks that want one would buy it.

    My measly .02,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  2. #52
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Fair call about the price. I certainly bought Leica Ms for long enough to know that I'd pay a premium for certain things I value. In the Ms case that was small size, super sharp fast lenses and rangefinder focusing. Those things remained in the Ms digital transition, but certain other I valued were compromised. I'm confident Leica have for the most part addressed my concerns with the M9. Given time I'm sure the S2 could swing me and many photographers over, I'll just give the system a while to mature before looking at it again.

    How big is Leica in terms of employees and turnover compared to Hasselblad? Is it even realistic to expect more from them at this point in time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Actually, I really think there are only 2-1/2... 1) Lenses, 2) accurate profiles for either LR or C1, preferably BOTHa and 1/2) Keep enough replacement bodies on hand you can do an immediate turn-around to send out a working body whilst the customer's is getting WARRANTY repair --- in this way, Leica could continue to take as long they wanted with the repairs. Heck, that might even motivate them to speed up turn-arounds or tighten up outbound QC. Or both...

    If those were all in place, the price would not be a barrier --- IMO the folks that want one would buy it.

    My measly .02,

  3. #53
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    first of all leica has misjudged their own capabilities. they are still stuggling to get out of last century's technology, with the M9 being the first postive step in the right direction. the S2 prestige project is apparently overburdening them. i fear it might end up as the R9 plan, namely in the trash bin.
    peter


    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Lets face it, there are really only four issues here. None of these are potentially hard to fix but, and for the life of me I can't understand Leica's logic here, Leica don't seem in a hurry to address these issues.

    1: Price and perceived value. Knock a third off the price and I'm sure they'd be getting way more positive comments here, even considering the following...
    2: No dedicated profiles or software. This is what is killing enthusiasm over image quality. People are judging final output based on non-optimised software. Why release such a *PRO* camera without having this in place? It's insane, which brings me to point 3.
    3: Lenses... Where are they? On paper? Enough said.
    4: Support network. Even in the antipodes I can get a back up Phase of Blad system couriered to me via warranty over night if the one I'm using goes down. I'd expect that level of support when throwing down money on what could amounts to a years wages for some.

    Don't get me wrong, I really *did* think the S2 would be *the* camera for me. I just think Leica have mis-judged the market.

  4. #54
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    "...Originally Posted by t_streng
    Back to the original post it does seem that at least in this forum the interest in the S2 is not really the highest...."

    I don't know... I see 40 posts here....

    ....
    Best regatrds
    Victor
    I stay corrected and say "there is not much interest in buying one" however still a lot of interested in "chatting about it"

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    I just returned home from 3 days of shooting in Savannah, GA. I have to say the S2 was a pleasure to use. It was no problem to carry around and shoot all day for three days. I am very happy with the ergonomics of the camera and the images it produces.

    Mark

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I just returned home from 3 days of shooting in Savannah, GA. I have to say the S2 was a pleasure to use. It was no problem to carry around and shoot all day for three days. I am very happy with the ergonomics of the camera and the images it produces.

    Mark

    I agree with you. Its a real pleasure and fun with this cam to shoot and carry around. I don't think Leica has mis-judged the market as mentioned from others...

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    The question/issue/discussion isn't that the camera doesn't make the majority of it's eventual users happy, it's that Leica, for a laundry list of reasons, isn't going to see ENOUGH eventual users, quickly enough, to keep the unit from ending up a collector's item/short-run technology show piece.

    While it would be a shame if the S2 program fired a market blank, should it do so they only have themselves to blame. They knew what the market looked like and they knew the competitors, so when they took the risk and burned their R10/R-user bridge (and enormous installed goodwill) behind them they knew needed to pull 100 rabbits out of 100 hats with perfect timing to ensure the S2 was a success.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th April 2010 at 03:49.

  8. #58
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Mark and xpixel - have you ordered one?

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    I bought the S2 in early February of this year. Right now I only have the 70mm lens. I am waiting on other lenses to be released before deciding on my next lens.

    Mark

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I bought the S2 in early February of this year. Right now I only have the 70mm lens. I am waiting on other lenses to be released before deciding on my next lens.

    Mark
    If it winds your clock, then it's a great camera, enjoy.

    Marc

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    I have been very happy with is so far. I expect the experience will get even better as the S system matures with firmware updates, camera profiles, more lens choices, etc.

    The S2 made sense for me, but it won't for others like yourself Marc. I remember meeting you at the Don CeSar as you were finishing up your demo of the S2 and you liked it. Unfortunately, in the end it didn't make sense for your needs for a variety of reasons and you went with with the H4D-40. Everyone has different needs, priorities, and circumstances such that there is no single camera system that works for everyone. I just hope there are enough people to whom the S2 makes sense to keep the system growing.

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Gowin; 20th April 2010 at 09:07. Reason: iPhone typo

  12. #62
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    ...I just hope there are enough people to whom the S2 makes sense to keep the system growing.
    THIS unease is what's at the root of the problem... and most seem to attribute Leica's strange marketing/pricing/whatever to this unease.

    I do too, Mark. I'll never own one, but what a potentially beautiful camera system.

    (please Leica, wake up... wake up)

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I have been very happy with is so far. I expect the experience will get even better as the S system matures with firmware updates, camera profiles, more lens choices, etc.

    The S2 made sense for me, but it won't for others like yourself Marc. I remember meeting you at the Don CeSar as you were finishing up your demo of the S2 and you liked it. Unfortunately, in the end it didn't make sense for your needs for a variety of reasons and you went with with the H4D-40. Everyone has different needs, priorities, and circumstances such that there is no single camera system that works for everyone. I just hope there are enough people to whom the S2 makes sense to keep the system growing.

    Mark
    I would have gone the S2 route Mark, if a decent system would have been available end of 2009. I was waiting and waiting and ..... unfortunately typical Leica style to deliver.

    So I had no chance than to go with Hasselblad. As a former Hassi user (I owned a 503 and a SWC) I was always very happy with that brand and I still became happy again. And - the big issue - IQ is better than any Leica camera, even the S2 plus in average the H System is cheaper than the S System - at least if you do not go for the 60MP version which is still not available, but stay with the 39, 40 or 50MP versions.

    So what to expect from Leica? Not sure how they will be able to succeed.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    If you recall Mark ... I was gearing up to make the swap over to the S2. I had sold off half my gear vault contents to do so. The FL camera test wasn't the breaking point ... I thought the images were quite nice, but lacked back-end support with profiles and what-not.

    That became apparent as I worked with the 170 or so files I shot in Tampa in the following weeks. I put so much time into working the files that, as it was, it'd take too long for the work I do.

    To afford the S2 system would have meant offing the last bastion of my commercial work ... the entire H system ... only to be left with a S2 and two lenses at the most. No W/A, no macro for studio work, and to my knowledge not even extension tubes to at least use with the 70. Plus no way to fill in the gaps by using the view camera for studio applications. Gotta have the goods to make any money.

    Then Hasselblad sprung the H4D/40 on an unsuspecting me. Camera sans lens (I have the H lenses already), was about 1/2 the price of the S2 & 70, has the amazing new focus system, is a more practical ratio which in effect increases resolution, and has the ability to shoot at higher ISOs than the S2 (at least for now).

    That is a lot to overcome no matter how much I love Leica gear.

    Starting from scratch, and less demands to actually produce income? ... it may well have been a different story.

    It's a really nice camera, and I'm sure it will come on-line for you as time moves forward. If I've learned anything in all my years of shooting Ms and Rs, it's that Leica requires patience.

    All the best to you,

    -Marc

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I just hope there are enough people to whom the S2 makes sense to keep the system growing.
    Mark
    So do I and I think Marc is right on the money when he says it will require patience.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Yes, patience - another 2 - 3 years!

    But by then the S2 sensor will be completely outdated, so how long then to wait for an S3?

    My fear out of experience is that this story will become never ending.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    There is a new firmware released today for the S2...

    https://owners.leica-camera.com/

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    What is in it. I had a laundry list for it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Yes, patience - another 2 - 3 years!

    But by then the S2 sensor will be completely outdated, so how long then to wait for an S3?

    My fear out of experience is that this story will become never ending.
    I'm not sure I agree with the "completely outdated" statement for the S2 version-1.

    These cameras/sensors have gotten to the point that "more" isn't necessarily worth it depending on end applications. In fact it's "never ending" from any of these MFD suppliers if you let it be.

    I mean come on folks ... let's face it ... now we have 40 ... 50 ... and 60 megs to select from ... what most of the shooters I know want are more practical features. Like Sensor Plus from Phase One that helps make the system more versatile, Or Hassey's True Focus Lock and the integrated HTS/1.5.

    Higher ISO performance, better and better AF, more lenses, faster write speeds, a better tethered experience with even more practical options.

    Think of Capture One or Phocus with the set of non-destructive tools that allow selective local adjustment like those now available in Lightroom. Stuff like that is "value added" to get more and more out of your initial investment.

    In fact if Leica could just get an excellent set of profiles out there for S2 processing in Lightroom v3, with all of its tools, they'd have something IMHO.

    -Marc

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Have to agree with Marc what they are truly missing is the back end support needed to make this system good. If you look at Hassy and Phase and all the support they have specifically for each back and than all the accessories and lenses in place that you have a SYSTEM. Leica is still a long ways away from what I would call a SYSTEM. One reason yours truly is not shooting it. As a working Pro I need every element in place before I lift that camera to my eye otherwise it is a real compromise on SYSTEM. I have said this more times than I can count but read my lips "It needs to age" and from my seat it is taking way to long to get there to be in my bag right now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    What is in it. I had a laundry list for it.
    Check this:

    http://www.s.leica-camera.com/leica-...rmware-version

  22. #72
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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    The improvements in the latest firmware upgrade include, for example, a new white balance setting for HMI light with its daylight-balanced, neutral colours. The functions offered by user-defined button programming have also been optimised: the stop-down button can now also be programmed after installation of the new update. Thanks to a new control element lock function, the shutter speed and aperture dials can now be locked to prevent inadvertent shifts. A more intuitive approach to image display now also contributes to functional optimisation and improved handling. The revised image review functions of the camera monitor allow for improved image quality control. In addition, memory cards formatted outside the camera can now also be used without problems in the S2. And last, but not least, the update supports the latest S-System LEICA SUMMARIT-S 35 mm f/2.5 ASPH. and the LEICA APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 120 mm f/2.5 lenses, as well as ensuring better image quality in JPEG files.



    How about the continuous file numbering has that been fixed?
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    How about the continuous file numbering has that been fixed?
    Yes its fixed...

    Here is all what they have fixed:

    1. Consistent, continuous image numbering
    2. Correction of an error when using memory cards not formatted in the camera
    3. Improvement of data transfer speed for computer-tethered photography
    4. Simplified image review operation
    5. Improved monitor image quality
    6. Increased functional reliability when changing exposure modes
    7. Correction of an error when using LEICA Image Shuttle software
    8. Optimization of JPEG image quality
    9. Additional functions:
    9.1. Additional white balance preset HMI
    9.2. Additional viewfinder information: exposure compensation
    9.3. Custom settings for depth of field preview button
    9.4. Selectable top panel standby time
    9.5. keylock (click wheel and shutter speed dial)
    9.6. Extended quick access options
    10. Improved lens performance
    11. Automatic detection of interchangeable focusing screen types

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Full details on improvements and additions with menu screenshots of the new firmware can be found on my blog.

    Overall, a very nice update.

    And, to add to Mark's experience, I had a great time shooting with the S2 in Savannah last week as well. I just finished my first round edit and I'm whittling down to get a full post up in a few days.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    This is an impressive list of fixes and new features. It shows Leica is listening And responding to users and testers alike.

    Marc, I agree with your position whole heartedly. I hope I didn't come across as throwing stones at you as that was not my intent. My only point was that it's different strokes for different folks.

    BTW, posting with an iPhone is a pain - I want an iPad.

    Mark

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    does anybody has an idea how many units of S2 are out and in use?
    Even though I have posted several times that I do not find the S2 to be a clever strategic business move I still wish Leica and the product success and I would love to see that they get it goin.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Thanks David, your blog has a good explanation. Looking forward to your Savannah photos.

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Apple with Leica S2 RAW Support...


    http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1035

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    Re: Demo S2 at Kurland Photo(ebay)

    Regardless of where someone stands re: the S2, it still makes me shake my head that Solms didn't on day one (and still hasn't) released custom profiles for the sucker. I mean if you're not going to have tailored raw processing software AT LEAST get on the stick and get profiles out the door.

    How they thought it would be (and continues to be) a good idea to have potential buyers, looking for a $x0,000 camera system marketed as being able to wring the Nth percentile of IQ out of their images, sit down after their test shoots and compare : Hassy+Phocus vs. Phamiya+C1 vs. Leaf+Leaf Capture(?) vs. S2+generic shrinkwrap?

    The images may look great out of LR, but how much of that vaunted IQ I'm paying so dearly for is being 'left on the table' vs the same shots taken with (to pick one) an H4D-40 + Phocus - or ANY of my high-end SLR or MFDB alternatives?

    Not to take away from the folks who adopted early and obviously love it, but between the software, the lack of new lenses and Solms seemingly going 'mute' on S2 marketing, a lot of potential buyers have to be wondering just how seriously Leica is taking the program. When you compare how they marketed the M9 vs the how they're working the S2 program you can't help but do a 'WTF ?'

    The new firmware update is well, nice, but fixing initial bugs and doing performance tweaks with a timely post-release firmware update is the least a new buyer/shopper should expect - especially in that snack bracket.

    All our varied opinions the S2 aside, if it works for you and you're happy with it - excellent. That said, the most telling thing for me regarding the risk to the S2's long-term viability is the deathly silence around the camera around the water cooler. It's like standing in Tombstone watching the tumbleweeds roll by. No chatter, no buzz, no marketing I've yet seen, No celeb A-list "it's an extension my mind's eye" videos. A one paragraph 'I love it' note from a Berlin-based shooter on the website - from December. Where's the S2 Imaging Blog profiling existing shooter's and their work? Hell, even the LUF sub-forum is a dry-well.

    The S2 seems to have lost both it's momentum and, more importantly, the mindshare of the bulk of potential buyers and non-buyers alike (loudly drooling 'can't afford it..' buyers are still good marketing) and Leica would be well-served to get things back into gear before too many potential buyers simply forget it and move on elsewhere.
    Last edited by robmac; 23rd April 2010 at 04:29.

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