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View Poll Results: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds on its promise?

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  • Never. I don't care about paying 10x as much for 10% more quality.

    16 17.39%
  • C'mon, D800 will never match DoF, dynamic range and microcontrast of my Phase One!

    34 36.96%
  • I'm into tech cams.Won't give up Rodesntocks & stitching, even if that luxury costs me 40k more!

    15 16.30%
  • Damn. I just sold off my Canon/Nikon gear to get into MFD!

    8 8.70%
  • If that Zeiss/Leica glass on the D800E performs as I think it should ... EBAY here I come!

    5 5.43%
  • I just preordered a D800E. Hell it's cheaper than that MFD lens I'm longing for!

    14 15.22%
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Thread: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

  1. #1
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    Cool POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    So the question is ...

    with Nikon's D800 around the corner and hence the promise of a 36MPX photographic system that shoots at 4fps, has live view, an advanced autofocus system and a huge screen paired with great battery life and uncompressed HDMI output ...

    at a price point lower than a new MFD optic ...

    do you consider consolidating your gear and selling off your MFD kit?

  2. #2
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    No. But I might look around for those $3000 deals on an S2.

    BTW, my MDF has an advanced AF system, huge screen, and great battery life. That is not special to the Nikon.

    It is nice to see the trolls out. It was getting boring around here.

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    My question is "Will you stop posting on the MF forum when you get your D800?"
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Oh no, the sky is falling in!

    Now Nikon have released a 36Mpix camera my Phase/Hasselblad/Leaf system no longer takes good pictures.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Oh no, the sky is falling in!

    Now Nikon have released a 36Mpix camera my Phase/Hasselblad/Leaf system no longer takes good pictures.
    That's not the point. Of course an IQ180 will deliver superior results paired with great optics. There will always be an ultimate solution for a lot of money.

    But one has to ask where the critical point lies where the market starts chosing Nikons over a H4D 40s, especially considering the substantial price difference.

    Dropping 20k on a system instead of 4-5k DOES make a difference if only it means that more amateurs will be penetrating new markets where photographers tried to differentiate themselves by resolution and gear only.

    For example, medium format was dominating wedding photography at one point. Now it's all about D3s, D700s and Canon 5Ds at those weddings. Maybe at one point high-end commercial photography will be dominated by 40-50MPX CaNikons that shoot at 10fps, have live view, shoot 3000 images per battery charge, are weather-sealed and have 60 AF points.

    Interesting times ... I'm wondering about Canon's next move now!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    In a word, no. If you already own a Ferrari, why go buy a G-Whizz?
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I think it's an interesting question given how many gave up on MFD for a 5DII in the past...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  8. #8
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    OK folks most of the moderators will be out shooting and out of coverage range for most of the day. We are counting on you to keep the conversation civil and in the spirit of GetDPI. Hopefully, when we get back later today we don't have to go in and delete posts.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    In a word, no. If you already own a Ferrari, why go buy a G-Whizz?
    It's all about economical thinking.

    Not considering the case that you just have enough money so you don't care ...

    spending 40-50k on a basic setup instead of 10k can make a difference. For working photographers as well as photo enthusiasts.

    Some young photographers have all their net worth in their camera gear. If getting 95% the effect in the end means having 30k more in the pocket ... I bet for some people it will make a difference. Or won't it?

    I just find this poll interesting from an economical perspective. I will never sell my MFD camera because I love the images it produces but I'm interested in microecnomics ... so that's why I ask, no harm intended

  10. #10
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Actually, I differentiate myself by my work. I chose my gear for the look it gives me, whether MFD or any other format or process. Clients don't ask for an equipment list before they ask for a job to be done and I don't sell my services out of a camera catalog. There is more to photography than pixels, which is a classic amateur mistake.

    Funny, when 24mp DSLRs came out, there was not a flood of 20-30mp MFD equipment in the market. And prices did not drop. So what is different this time?
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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    While its not just about resolution, the fact is medium format has stayed ahead of that game since inception. When the 1Dx was king with 11mp, Phase One's top offering was the P25 with 22mp. Now the D800 and the other soon to follow dslr's are becoming available with around 37mp, the highest resolution medium format backs are already at 80mp.

    I shoot with several cameras, an H4D-50 among them and they all have their place. There will always be a market for those who appreciate or need the quality only available from medium format. That won't be mom and pop operations or even many serious enthusiasts, but those who currently buy and use MF digital will carry on doing so now as they have in the past when similar questions have been asked. A D800 or whatever Canon or Sony launch is unlikely to change that. But that is not to say the D800 is not a mighty fine camera.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    It's all about economical thinking.

    Not considering the case that you just have enough money so you don't care ...

    spending 40-50k on a basic setup instead of 10k can make a difference. For working photographers as well as photo enthusiasts.

    Some young photographers have all their net worth in their camera gear. If getting 95% the effect in the end means having 30k more in the pocket ... I bet for some people it will make a difference. Or won't it?
    But that argument works for everything. Why a D800 than a Sony SLT77? Both will take fine images and you tie less money up in the Sony. And no one needs to go into MFD as a startup. I never bought equipment I could not afford when I started because it was too expensive, but I was able to make professional work.

    You are just picking facts to support your argument.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    But don't you guys believe that there's an invisible Megapixel barrier where demand for high-end MFD will subside?

    Traditionally Canon/Nikon where strong in the news gathering market. 35mm has always been enough for the newspapers and today cameras such as the D3s and 1 MK IV reign supreme in the that segment.

    Wedding is mostly 35mm nowadays from what I hear and read.

    Commercial Photography is everything with the high-end being dominated by MFD.

    Fine-Art is everything, but on the high-end analog 4x5, 8x10 and MFD.

    So the question is which markets CaNikon will penetrate next because cameras now are becoming "good enough" for 99% of the tasks.

    It is true that photographers differentiate themselves by their imagery. But you must confess that it's kind of embarassing when your client tells you he got his son that D3s last Christmas when you're at work with your D700 ...

    Just being the advocatus diaboli here, interested in opinions.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    But you must confess that it's kind of embarassing when your client tells you he got his son that D3s last Christmas when you're at work with your D700 ...
    Then why I am the guy with the job and not the son?
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    But don't you guys believe that there's an invisible Megapixel barrier where demand for high-end MFD will subside?
    But that is your mistake--it is not about the number of pixels.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But that argument works for everything. Why a D800 than a Sony SLT77? Both will take fine images and you tie less money up in the Sony. And no one needs to go into MFD as a startup. I never bought equipment I could not afford when I started because it was too expensive, but I was able to make professional work.

    You are just picking facts to support your argument.
    No I'm just interested in people's economical priorities. It is true that the camera per se is not a deciding factor if your output is considered "professional" and I bet a good architectural photographer will create stunning work with a 5D MKII and a TSE 17. But there's that thing of democratization of photography that leads to your uncle doing freelance wedding photography for 300 USD with his newly acquired 5D MKII. 30 Years ago the entry price for wedding photography was much higher. I remember a wedding where the guy had a Hasselblad 500 and at that time I didn't know anything about photography but was impressed by the professional looking camera and I was sure it cost him a lot of money ...

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But that is your mistake--it is not about the number of pixels.
    BTW: I don't believe that the D800 will match the MFD quality. In fact I have an Aptus 12 and after acquiring it I lost all interest in 35mm digital because the quality of the files had completely spoiled me. But I think for a lot of people 36 MPX on paper for 3k might sound a lot more tempting than 40MPX for 20k.

    As I said, I in no way want to say that the new D800 is better than MFD. There aren't even any raw files out yet. And from what I can glean from the official samples they files seem rather disappointing ...

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    No I'm just interested in people's economical priorities. It is true that the camera per se is not a deciding factor if your output is considered "professional" and I bet a good architectural photographer will create stunning work with a 5D MKII and a TSE 17. But there's that thing of democratization of photography that leads to your uncle doing freelance wedding photography for 300 USD with his newly acquired 5D MKII. 30 Years ago the entry price for wedding photography was much higher. I remember a wedding where the guy had a Hasselblad 500 and at that time I didn't know anything about photography but was impressed by the professional looking camera and I was sure it cost him a lot of money ...
    Paul, so the wedding photographer 30 years ago could by a Mamiya C2 or C3 for less than $300. Those were a staple of wedding photographers. You are taking anecdotes and thinking those are the norms.

    It is great that amateurs can get better equipment--the D800 will be a fine camera. I would not complain if my gear was as cheap. But you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Art is not a democracy. We don't have to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. And artists know the value of working in systems that amateurs think are luxuries. It is only a luxury if it has no purpose or cannot give actual results. You are confusing specifications with process.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Shashin,

    so if Canon tomorrow made a camera paired with optics that match your current MFD setup as it is today or that is very close with regards to end results ... but with advantages such as live view, weather-sealing, more fps etc. 60MPX or 80MPX.

    Would you consider going for 35mm digital or would you stay in MFD if say Phase One by that time had introduced a 120 MPX IQ back that would cost you 40k more?

    I'm just asking if you, as a working photographer, who knows the client's needs, would consider a image quality point where the files "good enough" for all professional tasks and where you wouldn't be willing to spend more money on gear?

    Or to what point do you think the argument of your client having a better camera than you is an important deciding factor for a pro to go medium format?

    In that regard an interesting read:

    Why I Moved To Medium Format :: Phase One IQ140 Review • Photography By Zack Arias

    Also here we have a fashion photographer who had to possibility to test the D800 during the last 9 months. Of course he is biased, but on the other hand the pictures do look great:

    http://weblog.robvanpetten.com/archive/nikon-d800
    Last edited by Paul Spinnler; 7th February 2012 at 11:07.

  20. #20
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    OK folks most of the moderators will be out shooting and out of coverage range for most of the day. We are counting on you to keep the conversation civil and in the spirit of GetDPI. Hopefully, when we get back later today we don't have to go in and delete posts.
    I'm not sure you should disclose this, Terry. Don't worry, I know a couple of adults who can supervise. Me and Don can, uh, well never mind....

  21. #21
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I think it's an interesting question given how many gave up on MFD for a 5DII in the past...
    Let's not forget those like me who went from 5DMK2 to MFD.

    I am no expert, but it seems to me that whatever is the latest and greatest Canon or Nikon can't compete with IQ of a 3-4 year old MFD in the studio.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I'm sorry, it it is not my intention to offend anybody when I say this thread is ridiculous.
    I highly doubt that anybody who is able to invest that much money in camera gear will simply sell it off in favor for a cheaper system. It might be a nice addition for the nikon user.

    All we have right now are a bunch of tiny jpgs on the internet. They could have come from any camera. Remember when Nikon used files from a Phase One P45 to show the superiority of their products?
    I bet the D800 is great if you restrict yourself to the use of macro lenses only. Anything wide open will probably be terribly soft...

    Then again I welcome the introduction of this camera. There might be a chance that medium format gear will become cheaper in the future.
    Last edited by MaxKißler; 7th February 2012 at 14:37.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    D800 made me think about going back to FF DSLR from M9 for a split second.. but then that GAS went away, and GAS for MFD came back again.
    Scott
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I noticed that all the samples from D800E at Nikon are shot at f8. Nikon is trying to get maximum DOF and sharpness out of those samples, but to me they just don't look that spectacular. Maybe they need better photographers?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    That's not the point. Of course an IQ180 will deliver superior results paired with great optics. There will always be an ultimate solution for a lot of money.
    These types of threads always assume there is only ONE solution, ONE answer to be had. Define "ultimate" solution. e.g. Perhaps one person want to shoot @ f1.4 with a WA prime; versus someone else who needs minimal distortion, shifting capability and maximum resolution with his SK/Rodenstock lenses and IQ180.

    When you look at the feature set offered by every camera system currently available today, it is too simplistic to just focus on MP. So what if the D800 has 30+MP and the option to ditch the AA filter? In the context of the wider camera market, is this truly earth-shatteringly groundbreaking to justify all the angst?

    Buy what you want/need, what you can afford, use it, enjoy it.

    P.S. I don't understand all the ridiculous consternation surrounding the D800: "Look at the sample JPEG's, they're rubbish so the camera is rubbish"; "MF is quaking in their boots / no they're not"; "I bet we'll see moire / no we won't"; "Nikon will need better glass / no they don't, their best glass is already great"; "the S2 / Leica glass is still better"; "the S2 will now be worthless, can't wait to pick one up one eBay on the cheap".
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Not sure what all the fuss is about, this already happened once before and we didn't see a whole bunch of people flocking to the 5DII from their 22MP Leaf/Hassy/P1 backs 3 years ago.

    I shoot Canon, m43 and MF, and all about horses for courses.

    If its about bragging rights on specs, a juiced up Camaro is still no 911
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Warning
    Double fines for infractions in moderator free zones
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I pre ordered a D800E,
    I am for sure keeping my Sinar arTec Leaf Aptus II 7 AFI back,
    Though I am thinking about selling my Leaf HY6 body and lenses.
    Steven
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    www.kuau.com

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So the question is ...

    with Nikon's D800 around the corner and hence the promise of a 36MPX photographic system that shoots at 4fps, has live view, an advanced autofocus system and a huge screen paired with great battery life and uncompressed HDMI output ...

    at a price point lower than a new MFD optic ...

    do you consider consolidating your gear and selling off your MFD kit?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Warning
    Double fines for infractions in moderator free zones
    Bob, aren't you a moderator? So no doubles.

    To the original question: no, but I might consider getting a D800 and a 14-24 rather than the $5K 25mm from Pentax.*

    * approximately the same cost
    Last edited by tsjanik; 7th February 2012 at 18:25.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So the question is ...

    with Nikon's D800 around the corner and hence the promise of a 36MPX photographic system that shoots at 4fps, has live view, an advanced autofocus system and a huge screen paired with great battery life and uncompressed HDMI output ...

    at a price point lower than a new MFD optic ...

    do you consider consolidating your gear and selling off your MFD kit?
    No. Why would I step backward?

    Sorry, but no, I'm not interested in the D800 either. I went on a "Hype" diet some time ago.

    What I consolidated and got rid of is all the pretender cameras with big hype budgets, and spent the money on lighting which makes more impact than any camera I could buy.

    Like it or not, the photo industry has changed dramatically, and "good enough" is the new "excellent." So, it stands to reason that a camera like this will be quite popular. That is the crux of the "numbers" discussion as opposed to the personal art aspect.

    IMHO, if someone thinks they can get to the level of even a 31 meg MFD with a high spec 35MM, then they didn't need a MFD in the first place. I was still shooting an "old tech" 16 Meg CFV on a 203FE when I had a Nikon D3X and all of the latest Nano coated optics, and always preferred the 16 meg MFD files to the 24 meg Nikon ones in terms of IQ. I use 35mm DSLRs for functional differences, not IQ.

    The real question that hasn't been asked is ... how many shooters will dump their $8K D3X for this higher meg camera? That seems to be what will flood the used market ... or will it?

    As to S2 users quaking in their boots ... anyone that says that just doesn't get it. If Leica had launched an 18 to 24 meg 35mm R-10 instead, THAT is what many S2 users would have bought. Leica cameras are a path to their lenses. The S2 is my new 35mm DSLR and the A900 is now relegated to a snapshot camera.

    For some odd reason, a few people want the big guys kicked to the curb, and they want to extoll the virtues of their "little camera that could". No matter how hard they wish upon a star, I doesn't change the fact that it's a fairy tale ... in reality, the only way Canon or Nikon will equal MFD IQ, is if they make a MFD camera and all new lenses.

    -Marc
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Marc, are you saying face recognition would not help you in the studio? I mean, what if you could not recognize the face?

    BTW, +1
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    If I didn't have a ton of money invested in seemingly every system except Nikon, I might buy a D800E. Even so, if Nikon ever sells a DSLR with 9 micron "fat pixels" I might buy it.....but I'd still keep my Hasselblad CFV-16II, because no one (besides Leica) makes glass as good as Zeiss. Except of course, for a few of the old Nikkor AIS lenses....those are sweet (in a low tech sort of way). ;-)
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    My MF gear is safe in its case. I don't even know if I ever use it, but someday it will make a nice addition to a glass case. Too many memories to sell, too much work to use. And D800? Nothing special, just another dSLR. Images on Nikons' website look kinda' meh. Maybe because they don't know how to use photoshop?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So the question is ...

    with Nikon's D800 around the corner and hence the promise of a 36MPX photographic system that shoots at 4fps, has live view, an advanced autofocus system and a huge screen paired with great battery life and uncompressed HDMI output ...

    at a price point lower than a new MFD optic ...

    do you consider consolidating your gear and selling off your MFD kit?
    What makes you think I would be so stupid to sell it and put $$ in bank? I obvious enjoy higher image quality than also D800E can offer.

    Are you planning to upgrade your D700 to the new Samsung camera phone? I hear it has more pixels???

    I did not think you are that stupid either, why posting?

    I suggest to remove this thread. Thank you, and no I did not vote.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Interesting "answer" choices ... so you think the d800 will be within 10% of an IQ180? Sounds like some bias in the polling method.

    Couple of thoughts, the 36mp sensor is only a 20% increase in linear resolution over the d3x. so while an improvement (and outstanding to a point) it certainly won't compete with 60 and 80mp backs that many of us shoot. There are many Nikon lenses that won't hold up (there is plenty of good glass available but many users don't have that glass). note Canon has been aggressively upgrading lenses, rumored to be so purchasers won't be disappointed with the quality of their higher res offering. The real news here is a decent high res FF Nikon for under $3000. It should have happened a couple of years ago.

    I know that technically the Dynamic range is simlar, I've worked extensively with dSLR files and those from my Phase backs, and from a usability perspective, the MFDB files offer more dynamic range. I have a good friend I travel and shoot with frequently, and we work side by side on similar captures many evenings. He frequently has to bracket shots I have no problem with. If he doesn't bracket, he can't pull the same file quality out.

    Granted this is with a 5d Mark 2, but I've shot with a D3x and feel the same way. Whether the d800 makes that leap to compete we'll see, you can bet I'll be out shooting the first one that shows up in my store to get a feel for what it can do.

    But no, I won't be ordering a d800 for myself, and in fact prob. won't bother with the new offering coming from Canon. I think I can get plenty of quality out of a NEX 7 and to beat that quality both offer just incremental upgrades, so the IQ180 remains my choice. I'll sell the canon gear, and get a few really good lenses for the Sony for backup and those occasions I want to stay light.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    This is an odd question.

    The same company, Nikon, just before the D800/E issue, issued the D4. Lower pixel count, heavier and pricier.

    Do you expect people not buying the D4 and instead buy the D800/E?

    Also, the lower pixel count, heavier and pricier D3X is a current camera.

    => Pixel count isn't everything.

    Another development that goes unnoticed is the significant price drop on the Sigma SD-1. That also is an interesting option (in the small format area) now just because of that.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    The only thing I get from all this is why can Nikon release a camera with all this technology build in for only £2300 but Phase One (the main culprit) can continue to shamefully charge £4500 for the flakey Phamiya 645?

    I imagine the aggressive pricing of this latest Nikon has a few camera manufacturers scratching their heads.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    This is an odd question.

    The same company, Nikon, just before the D800/E issue, issued the D4. Lower pixel count, heavier and pricier.

    Do you expect people not buying the D4 and instead buy the D800/E?

    Also, the lower pixel count, heavier and pricier D3X is a current camera.

    => Pixel count isn't everything.

    Another development that goes unnoticed is the significant price drop on the Sigma SD-1. That also is an interesting option (in the small format area) now just because of that.
    It's a very valid question in my view. If you take a look at this video:

    Nikon D800 and D800E: Hands On Preview - YouTube

    where the Nikon product manager presents the new D800E to the public, you will see that Nikon with the D800E squarely aims at the MF crowd. They mention medium format users many times.

    No AA filter and 36 MPX is a clear marketing proposition aimed at people thinking of buying a H4D-40 or IQ140 in my view.

    Of course one gets fire when asking these question in a forum dominated by pros and wealthy enthusiasts who can afford a 40-50k imaging system. But it is childish to ask for the removal of the thread - it must be possible to discuss the introduction of consumer-priced 36 MPX systems in a medium format forum without making people angry.

    So if everybody here laughs at the D800E ... why would Nikon create an AA-less version in the first place, mention medium format users in press conferences and commission fashion photographers to test out the new camera? I guess it's because they do see potential of getting a piece of that high-end market with that camera.

    And it is also clear that people rationalize their investments. If one had spent 30k on an IQ140 system two months ago, having sold off a D3X and all Nikon lenses to fund the purchase, it would only be natural to defend one's purchasing decision staunchly. But in the back of one's head one might say to oneself: "That Nikon D800E wouldn't have been the worst of choices ... Damn."

    I'm wondering what the D4X will bring now!

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Oh no, the sky is falling in!

    Now Nikon have released a 36Mpix camera my Phase/Hasselblad/Leaf system no longer takes good pictures.
    I hope so - in this case I could get a cheap digital back for my Hasselblad

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Paul, it is insulting to dismiss those who disagree with you as merely "wealthy enthusiasts" and I have seen no one "laughing" at the D800. Such comments have no place on this forum.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    It's a very valid question in my view. If you take a look at this video:

    Nikon D800 and D800E: Hands On Preview - YouTube

    where the Nikon product manager presents the new D800E to the public, you will see that Nikon with the D800E squarely aims at the MF crowd. They mention medium format users many times.

    No AA filter and 36 MPX is a clear marketing proposition aimed at people thinking of buying a H4D-40 or IQ140 in my view.

    Of course one gets fire when asking these question in a forum dominated by pros and wealthy enthusiasts who can afford a 40-50k imaging system. But it is childish to ask for the removal of the thread - it must be possible to discuss the introduction of consumer-priced 36 MPX systems in a medium format forum without making people angry.

    So if everybody here laughs at the D800E ... why would Nikon create an AA-less version in the first place, mention medium format users in press conferences and commission fashion photographers to test out the new camera? I guess it's because they do see potential of getting a piece of that high-end market with that camera.

    And it is also clear that people rationalize their investments. If one had spent 30k on an IQ140 system two months ago, having sold off a D3X and all Nikon lenses to fund the purchase, it would only be natural to defend one's purchasing decision staunchly. But in the back of one's head one might say to oneself: "That Nikon D800E wouldn't have been the worst of choices ... Damn."

    I'm wondering what the D4X will bring now!

    Paul, I did not ask this thread to be removed.

    Why would Nikon mention, why would Nikon that....? Nikon isn't everything that is photography.

    These are the folks who claimed that a photographer is only as good as the gear he/she uses, recently. So, why would anyone (add your own type/class of photographer here, at your own risk) compromise quality for the sake of money?
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So if everybody here laughs at the D800E ...
    No-one here is laughing at the D800. The comedy is in this thread, not to mention your poll questions.

    You seem to expect that the vast majority of people will just dump what they currently own at a moment's notice the instant something shiny and new appears on the market. Tad simplistic don't you think?

    Gazwas said it best at the start of this thread, although I would expand his comment to: Phase / Hasselblad / Leaf / Leica / Pentax / Canon / Nikon / Sony / Samsung / Ricoh / Olympus / Panasonic / etc / etc / etc ...

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Surely this depends entirely on how the IQ of the 800e pans out . . and until there are good RAW files from decent lenses it's going to be hard to tell - perhaps the best way to get handle on it is to look at D7000 files taken with FX lenses and extrapolate to some (softish) corners.

    So, as far as I can see, Nikon have shown us something which is extremely interesting in concept - but any kind of decision / judgement is currently entirely moot.

    I'm not biting . . . because, if I were to buy it then I'd want to use Zeiss and Leica lenses on it . . . and having seen focus peaking I realise I'd be better to wait for the Sony. . . . . . and of course, to see what Leica may come up with at photokina.

    I'm not selling my MF gear either . . because I never quite got around to buying it - what I will say though is that the impetus to go out and buy it is no different in the face of the 800 (I really would like that S2).

    all the best

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Paul,
    saying that one does not believe that the Nikon D800E will deliver the same IQ doesnt mean automatically to rationalize ones equipment. Personally I dont need to rationalize anything. If something does fulfil my requirements equally good for much less money I just sell my old stuff and by the cheaper solution.
    I am not married to my gear.

    However-IMO the development steps in digital photography were mostly more evolutionary steps than revolutionary, so I am someone who does not expect wonders. And most important I first want to see myself and in reality before I make my conclusion. Datasheets are nice but I dont even care about MTF charts, I prefer to find out if I like what I see.

    Regards, Tom

    I can honestly say that I believe that most Leica M/R lenses are better than most Nikon lenses. And Leica states and I can see that the Leica S-lenses are even better than the Leica M lenses.
    And now we do know that the smaller the sensor the higher quality glass we do need.



    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    It's a very valid question in my view. If you take a look at this video:

    Nikon D800 and D800E: Hands On Preview - YouTube

    where the Nikon product manager presents the new D800E to the public, you will see that Nikon with the D800E squarely aims at the MF crowd. They mention medium format users many times.

    No AA filter and 36 MPX is a clear marketing proposition aimed at people thinking of buying a H4D-40 or IQ140 in my view.

    Of course one gets fire when asking these question in a forum dominated by pros and wealthy enthusiasts who can afford a 40-50k imaging system. But it is childish to ask for the removal of the thread - it must be possible to discuss the introduction of consumer-priced 36 MPX systems in a medium format forum without making people angry.

    So if everybody here laughs at the D800E ... why would Nikon create an AA-less version in the first place, mention medium format users in press conferences and commission fashion photographers to test out the new camera? I guess it's because they do see potential of getting a piece of that high-end market with that camera.

    And it is also clear that people rationalize their investments. If one had spent 30k on an IQ140 system two months ago, having sold off a D3X and all Nikon lenses to fund the purchase, it would only be natural to defend one's purchasing decision staunchly. But in the back of one's head one might say to oneself: "That Nikon D800E wouldn't have been the worst of choices ... Damn."

    I'm wondering what the D4X will bring now!

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Paul, it is insulting to dismiss those who disagree with you as merely "wealthy enthusiasts" and I have seen no one "laughing" at the D800. Such comments have no place on this forum.
    Quentin, I did not dismiss anyone (and wasn't thinking of you in any way) and don't want to insult anyone. And I didn't state this because someone disagrees with me. It is just my general impression of the mfd demographic, not only here but in general.

    Don't you agree that the demographic of 50k photographic kit owners is probably a combination of pros and wealthy enthusiasts? Or who else would buy this? Normal people taking on a loan to get an IQ180 for some weekend shooting fun? Starting photographers with no idea if they ever will have enough ROI without having worked and built a client base?

    I bet that there's a substantial amount of Phase/Hassy owners who are not working professionals but just have the money and the desire to go for the best camera systems out there and who love photography to justify the investment. And there's nothing negative to that. My mfd dealer in Germany who also sells Leica says that the hottest market right now for Leica is Russia and Asia. They sell more limited editions M9s and Leica S2 down there than anywhere else. There are probably more investment bankers in HK, Singapore or London running around with Phase or Leica systems than one might think. That's in my view the reality of the high-end photographic market and I didn't judge anything about it.

    The reaction here reminds me of the reaction people get when they bring um medium format in the large format photography forums. At first there's denial, then there's dismissal and at the end shouts for censorship. But slowly some opinions change and people start to realize that there's possibly something to a Phase IQ180 compared to 8x10.

    So please, no insults inteneded, no harm intended, I'm just wondering if the D800 makes someone reevaluete their investment in MFD or at least rethink the entry into MFD.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I took a look at the bridal shot on the nikon site. It looks unexceptional until you factor in that

    1) It's a pre-prod
    2) it's shot with a (admittedly very good) zoom
    3) it's the version with AA filtering
    4) it's 36mp at ISO 640

    When you factor those things in, and when you remind yourself that according to DXO the sensor in the D7000 (apparently almost the same sensor as in the 800) has MORE dynamic range than the IQ180 and MUCH better high ISO performance, you are left realising that the colour depth of the IQ series sensors are their fighting USP.

    Other than that, and the higher resolution of the IQ160 and 180, there is a lot to recommend the 800. As I stated higher up the thread, I have ordered one and look forward to seeing what the pudding tastes like in order to see whether, for me, it proves itself to be a viable way of consolidating MF and SLR systems into one.

    I am open minded, and I think that is only sensible.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    It's a very valid question in my view. If you take a look at this video:

    Nikon D800 and D800E: Hands On Preview - YouTube

    where the Nikon product manager presents the new D800E to the public, you will see that Nikon with the D800E squarely aims at the MF crowd. They mention medium format users many times.

    No AA filter and 36 MPX is a clear marketing proposition aimed at people thinking of buying a H4D-40 or IQ140 in my view.

    Of course one gets fire when asking these question in a forum dominated by pros and wealthy enthusiasts who can afford a 40-50k imaging system. But it is childish to ask for the removal of the thread - it must be possible to discuss the introduction of consumer-priced 36 MPX systems in a medium format forum without making people angry.

    So if everybody here laughs at the D800E ... why would Nikon create an AA-less version in the first place, mention medium format users in press conferences and commission fashion photographers to test out the new camera? I guess it's because they do see potential of getting a piece of that high-end market with that camera.

    And it is also clear that people rationalize their investments. If one had spent 30k on an IQ140 system two months ago, having sold off a D3X and all Nikon lenses to fund the purchase, it would only be natural to defend one's purchasing decision staunchly. But in the back of one's head one might say to oneself: "That Nikon D800E wouldn't have been the worst of choices ... Damn."

    I'm wondering what the D4X will bring now!
    Paul, I believe it is valid to discuss this, and applaud you for broaching the subject is a direct manner. However, perhaps you are confusing experiential knowledge and conviction with anger?

    Personally I think it is very reasonable to assume there are a lot of photographers that need/want/desire a higher resolution tool, and can't afford a full blown MFD kit. I believed this to be true when cameras like the Canon 5D and Sony A850 delivered FF sensors over 20 meg at a reasonable price point. I also believe it to be more true today than in past because of the economic climate and increasing pressure on the photographic industry in general ...added to the wide-spread myopic view that pixel count is an absolute measure of IQ.

    For those that regret getting a MFD kit because of this D800, perhaps they either couldn't afford to do so in the first place, or can't realize the difference it can make in the work they do. In either case, this Nikon may be the better choice.

    However, the assumption that 36 meg stuffed into a 35mm film gate will cure all ills is where the choo-choo comes off the tracks. It simply sweeps aside the well documented knowledge that size matters. In this case, it seems to be an omission of convenience for the sake of the POV you want to focus on ... the above mentioned economics.

    Your POV is very valid, but it doesn't mean owners of MFD systems don't have an equally valid perspective... and to imply it is a defensive reaction belittles their knowledge/experience base for making informed decisions. When I purchased my S2P, I did so with the full belief that a 30+ meg 35mm DSLR was on the horizon (that prospect has been clear for quite some time). That it has now arrived makes no difference to me at all because I had already taken it into account. My criteria based on direct experience was that size matters, and Leica lenses matter even more.

    As for my Hasselblad H4D/60 ... I prefer the True Focus innovation over any focus array in any 35mm camera, and not only does sensor size matter, but the meg count dwarfs the D800 if that has to be the absolute indicator of IQ ... which it is not.

    -Marc

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    For me it would replace my A77 Sony as nice as the files are and how nice it did in LA on a big gig for me the EVF was and is just not my cup of tea. Shame because I really liked my results for what what use I have for it. Now I have not seen or read one major thing on the Nikon yet since I'm busy in Death Valley but it sounds promising for my uses. But it is not even a thought to replace my Phase and tech cam. I may switch gears slightly but nothing will touch MF and that is just the way it is. There is no evolutionary tech being done here just a rehash and finally someone like Nikon to step to the plate and lose the AA filter. Which I think is a good move. If it proves to be good than Yes I will order one to take over my 35 gearing. But no way am I giving up my 60 mpx sensor
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Paul, I believe it is valid to discuss this, and applaud you for broaching the subject is a direct manner. However, perhaps you are confusing experiential knowledge and conviction with anger?

    Personally I think it is very reasonable to assume there are a lot of photographers that need/want/desire a higher resolution tool, and can't afford a full blown MFD kit. I believed this to be true when cameras like the Canon 5D and Sony A850 delivered FF sensors over 20 meg at a reasonable price point. I also believe it to be more true today than in past because of the economic climate and increasing pressure on the photographic industry in general ...added to the wide-spread myopic view that pixel count is an absolute measure of IQ.

    For those that regret getting a MFD kit because of this D800, perhaps they either couldn't afford to do so in the first place, or can't realize the difference it can make in the work they do. In either case, this Nikon may be the better choice.

    However, the assumption that 36 meg stuffed into a 35mm film gate will cure all ills is where the choo-choo comes off the tracks. It simply sweeps aside the well documented knowledge that size matters. In this case, it seems to be an omission of convenience for the sake of the POV you want to focus on ... the above mentioned economics.

    Your POV is very valid, but it doesn't mean owners of MFD systems don't have an equally valid perspective... and to imply it is a defensive reaction belittles their knowledge/experience base for making informed decisions. When I purchased my S2P, I did so with the full belief that a 30+ meg 35mm DSLR was on the horizon (that prospect has been clear for quite some time). That it has now arrived makes no difference to me at all because I had already taken it into account. My criteria based on direct experience was that size matters, and Leica lenses matter even more.

    As for my Hasselblad H4D/60 ... I prefer the True Focus innovation over any focus array in any 35mm camera, and not only does sensor size matter, but the meg count dwarfs the D800 if that has to be the absolute indicator of IQ ... which it is not.

    -Marc
    No personal anger at all. I bought a mfd kit fully knowing that 35mm digital will come up with higher MPX counts and better sensors. In the end we're talking about Sony and Canon here who have huge R&D budgets for their sensor progras. Medium format has only Dalsa left and the company that bought kodak's sensor business.

    The D7000 sensor with its dynamic range is a testament to the advancements in CMOS technology. I bought the mfd camera because I could afford it and wanted the best. So my answer is number one. I don't care about 35mm digital because I honestly think it is inferior. But I'm interested in microeconomic choices and whether Nikon will be able to capture market share in the mfd digital world.

    Regarding the argument that size matters: Yes it does, but only if all things being equal holds true. Here we have technology power houses such as Sony who might cram 100 megapixels in sensors by 2013 using organic sensor tech. They aggressively push the CMOS technology further and further. On the other hand we have the MFD players who are dependent on the sensor capabilities of smaller, specialized companies such as Dalsa. If sony leverages their sensor tech in their HD cams, cell phones and dslrs they can get a much higher ROI on ther R&D. So actually we have smaller sensors but we have probably a lot more R&D muscle behind that too. So possibly there might be a point where there is a 50MPX sensor from Sony that has higher dynamic range, lower noise, better color representation than the next 90MPX Dalsa.

    I'm not an engineer but I wouldn't underestimate the r&d aspect and economies of scale...

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