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Do I really need shims for Alpa 12 V Adapter?

Thierry

New member
I would just like to repeat once again that it is not the camera which is the focus problem, but the back or the lens itself.
If you don't notice it on your Hassy that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. What seems to be sharp doesn't mean it's the maximum sharpness you can reach with a precisely adjusted sensor and/or lens. To see a difference it often needs a comparison side by side.

best regards
Thierry

Living in a different time zone (in Korea now), this is a great way to wake up - to find lots of useful information about the problem I'm dealing with. GetDPI rocks! Thanks for the all the comments~

I'm still not sold on the idea that Digital Backs have more severe focusing issues. As Shashin pointed out, I never really had any problems using it with a Hassy body. Having said that, I never tested it and perhaps I am not as sensitive to the problem.

However, since there is no way to accurately focus with an Alpa (unless you use GG), I was considering scale focusing with Disto and the HPF ring, but it seems like shimming is a prerequisite to that approach.

Then again, I now realize shimming involves adjusting all the lenses that I have and that is a big turn-off. I don't think it's something I can do myself, and I certainly don't want to have to do that with all my future lenses.

So... now I am back to not shimming and living with the error (hoping it's not too bad) and zone focusing.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Shashin,

Again, it is not the Alpa camera the problem, see my post bellow. You will simply focus as precisely as the weakest element in your chain. In this case it is the position of the sensor, which has the same influence on final focus on any camera.

Simply try it once and you will understand what is meant.

Many have noticed the differences from one digital back to another, when upgrading for instance.

Being able to shim is simply being able to get out the maximum sharpness out of your back.

Best regards
Thierry
Thierry, please show this. Say two landscape images shot at f/11 at half the hyper focal distance (the plane that will still have infinity in the DoF) with a difference of 0.01mm shim (you can use the Zeiss standard CoC of 1/1500 of the format diagonal for DoF). Describe how object distance was determined and where that plane is. If you say this makes a difference then it should be easy to show.

BTW, how much will an Alpa body and lens mount expand from say -40F to 90F?

Now, I have used reflex systems like Hasselblad, Mamiya, and Pentax. A reflex system will need tighter tolerances than an Alpa because the ground glass and mirror need to be in the right place or each will compound focusing errors. I look at my images and they are sharp. They are sharp where they are supposed to be sharp. A shim will just move that plane. Yet, in my images, I can see where the plane of focus is. You cannot get sharper than where the plane of focus is. Even with my sliding GG on my Linhof, no focusing error, so I am confused by your claims.

BTW, my advice was just to order the adapter and determine if there was a problem--I assume not all backs have to be shimmed. I was not referring to the construction of the Alpa. You may be right that Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad have really bad QC but on average they should get the sensor in the right place. Why assume there will be a problem? (I have seen the Optech video on shimming and they are really shimming the camera to a point closer than infinity--infinity is just not something that is far away.)

But anyway, I would be happy to see some evidence. I really don't think hearsay is very helpful when your customers could be using targets that are not at infinity and then of course they will think the back would need to be shimmed.
 
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Thierry

New member
Shashin,

I don't need to show anything, there are enough people here who experience this, also many who claimed like you that such "craziness" for precision is non-sense and who came back from that.

Just have a look at the videos at Alpa's site, it shows and explains it perfectly.

You look at your images and they are sharp: yes of course they are. But are you sure your sharpness plane is exactly at the exact place/distance you have set it on your scale?

Shashin, you seem to purposely want to misunderstand and to distort what I am writing, 3 times now: I did say that it is not the camera which needs precision/adjustment, but the sensor/lens which do not necessarily have the same tolerances from one unit to the other (see some posts here and elsewhere from others).

"you cannot get sharper than where the plane of focus is": obviously, yes of course. But it is the precision of this sharpness plane, thus the sharpness at the exact point (plane) where you want it which is important for some. This is what I considered as "maximum sharpness".

"I assume not all backs have to be shimmed": obviously not, but much more than you would imagine, without speaking about lenses.

"how much will an Alpa body and lens mount expand from say -40F to 90F?": that's another issue, and yes, you are perfectly right here, but not only an Alpa, ALL cameras/bodies/parts of the setup. This is something manufacturers will have to deal with sooner as you might think.

I think it doesn't need to continue arguing. If you are happy with your results that's the most important. I have simply pointed out something which we daily have to deal with at Alpa, "Sensor position and planity/curvature".

Best regards
Thierry

Thierry, please show this. Say two landscape images shot at f/11 at half the hyper focal distance (the plane that will still have infinity in the DoF) with a difference of 0.01mm shim (you can use the Zeiss standard CoC of 1/1500 of the format diagonal for DoF). Describe how object distance was determined and where that plane is. If you say this makes a difference then it should be easy to show.

BTW, how much will an Alpa body and lens mount expand from say -40F to 90F?

Now, I have used reflex systems like Hasselblad, Mamiya, and Pentax. A reflex system will need tighter tolerances than an Alpa because the ground glass and mirror need to be in the right place or each will compound focusing errors. I look at my images and they are sharp. They are sharp where they are supposed to be sharp. A shim will just move that plane. Yet, in my images, I can see where the plane of focus is. You cannot get sharper than where the plane of focus is. Even with my sliding GG on my Linhof, no focusing error, so I am confused by your claims.

BTW, my advice was just to order the adapter and determine if there was a problem--I assume not all backs have to be shimmed. I was not referring to the construction of the Alpa. You may be right that Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad have really bad QC but on average they should get the sensor in the right place. Why assume there will be a problem? (I have seen the Optech video on shimming and they are really shimming the camera to a point closer than infinity--infinity is just not something that is far away.)

But anyway, I would be happy to see some evidence. I really don't think hearsay is very helpful when your customers could be using targets that are not at infinity and then of course they will think the back would need to be shimmed.
 
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archivue

Active member
I would just like to repeat once again that it is not the camera which is the focus problem, but the back or the lens itself.

Thierry
that's a shame that there's no shimming system in the back itself... there is even registration difference between two backs from the same model... P45+ vs P45+ ... Aptus 22 vs Aptus 22...

but, when used on a mamiya DF or similar, because of retrofocus wide angle, it doesn't affect performances as it does with technical cameras !
 
W

wgcho

Guest
Once again, thanks for all the great, insightful comments.

Just to clarify, I will have the mount with shims, but I am contemplating returning for a shimless one.

After reading all the comments, I am now much more worried than before. It seems like the shim kit alone is not the solution for accurate focusing. As commented before, I need to calibrate all my lenses, too. I believe this is not something I can do by myself, which means I need to send in all the lenses and have them calibrated together. If I purchase another lens (which is very likely), I need send it together with my back again. This sounds ridiculous to me. The DIY shim kit makes only sense to people with one lens??

Some people say Alpa is for people who need precision. I actually object to that. It is the smallest wide angle solution for digital back with cropped sensor. Many people compare this to SWC as it is easy to carry around and shoot handhold. I actually think there are better/cheaper options for people who need precision. Or, am I missing something?

-Ted
 

jlm

Workshop Member
once you have the back set for one lens, your longest focal length, it is pretty easy to set the other lenses (this is not done by shimming; that part is over.) what you would do is make sure that when on the inf stop, each lens is in the best focus for a distant object. I was able to release the focus ring from the lens by loosening a screw or two, then you can rotate the barrel past the stop, checking focus by test shots. once inf is in focus, move the focus ring so the inf stop stops the barrel where it is, tighten the screws. pretty easy actually, best done tethered.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
No need to send your lenses anywhere. It is not hard to adjust them if necessary.
-bob
 

Thierry

New member
Ted,

You don't have to worry about this, you don't necessarily need to calibrate your lenses, rather not. Just do some test shots with one of your lenses with a longer FL of e.g. 90 mm or longer. Check your back as per the video on the Alpa side and shim it accordingly IF needed. It takes may be an hour to do this, then you are sure that your sensor is at the right distance.
Then take your other lenses with the same back and check your focus on these lenses. If you are noticing that your infinity point is not in focus, then it needs the lens to be corrected, if you are able to do it yourself (which isn't that difficult at all) or sent to the factory for calibration (if you don't feel secure enough), not the back again. But there is a big "chance" that the focus corresponds for these other lenses too.

Best regards
Thierry

Once again, thanks for all the great, insightful comments.

Just to clarify, I will have the mount with shims, but I am contemplating returning for a shimless one.

After reading all the comments, I am now much more worried than before. It seems like the shim kit alone is not the solution for accurate focusing. As commented before, I need to calibrate all my lenses, too. I believe this is not something I can do by myself, which means I need to send in all the lenses and have them calibrated together. If I purchase another lens (which is very likely), I need send it together with my back again. This sounds ridiculous to me. The DIY shim kit makes only sense to people with one lens??

Some people say Alpa is for people who need precision. I actually object to that. It is the smallest wide angle solution for digital back with cropped sensor. Many people compare this to SWC as it is easy to carry around and shoot handhold. I actually think there are better/cheaper options for people who need precision. Or, am I missing something?

-Ted
 
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W

wgcho

Guest
Wow, I didn't know I could calibrate the lens myself. Thanks for the clarification!
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i found my 43 Sk was off by about 2mm movement on the ring, the 70R was right on.
Thierry: are you not seeing my posts? it seems you are repeating what I already said an hour earlier
 

Thierry

New member
I've seen your posts, yes. However I think that it doesn't harm to get the opinion of several members, even if the same. Does it?

Best regards
Thierry

i found my 43 Sk was off by about 2mm movement on the ring, the 70R was right on.
Thierry: are you not seeing my posts? it seems you are repeating what I already said an hour earlier
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I don't need to show anything, there are enough people here who experience this, also many who claimed like you that such "craziness" for precision is non-sense and who came back from that.
So, no proof, just hearsay and marketing. Well, Thierry, I am allowed to join conversations like this. My comments are for the OP. There is no need for you to involve yourself with what I write.
 

Thierry

New member
Shashin,

Please, why do you make it a confrontation when it comes to help somebody and clarify things?
With all due respect, I shall intervene whenever I see something wrong or misleading being written, and there has been some.

And why do you need to denigrate a company with words like the ones you are using? I don't understand your agenda very well. I have been around for quite some years and have a record of somebody being honest, which you put in doubt with your words.

We can disagree, but there are ways to say it.

There are actually proofs, for those who want to see and understand the issue, and they have been published since years, here and elsewhere.

I invite you to visit us at Alpa in Zürich, then we will show you what is meant.

Best regards
Thierry

So, no proof, just hearsay and marketing. Well, Thierry, I am allowed to join conversations like this. My comments are for the OP. There is no need for you to involve yourself with what I write.
 
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