O
Oxide Blu
Guest
... Guy's on the slippery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.
Holly crap-oly!!! You're right -- that is Guy!!! I thought it was Wile E. Coyote.
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... Guy's on the slippery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.
You already lit it GuyNo No No. This one i am sitting out until it is out and running than we will see. LOL
Just don't light that fuse yet
Mark,David
Was there any further comment, or clarification,concerning the
announcement/non-announcement at PhotoKina that Leica was
to be a possible supplier of lenses for the PhaseOne camera?
Mark
IQ entails many things. Put a P45+ behind a Cambo or an Alpa Max with Rodenstock or Schneider lenses, and please tell me how an S2 could possibly compare, as it will not be able to correct for perspective.Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....
Dead heat?? What about aspect ratio? Some photographers do not like the 3x2 format, and prefer 4x3. Also, the printing industry is still geared towards the 4x5 format, so more pixels would need to be cropped from an S2 than from a P45+.The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.
What? If the microlenses were offset specifically to address wide angle lenses, then the sensor performance would suck for normal and telephoto lenses.The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.
Second to none? Not one of the S2 lenses can be shot at F2, whereas the Hasselblad FE 110mm lens can, so how could Leica not be second in that regard? Also, Leica has not achieved superachromat lens designs, which Zeiss has done for Hasselblad. Again, Leica would appear to be second in this regard as well. And, if these S2 lenses were indeed without any flaw, they would be totally unaffordable to most people. There is no magic here, just engineering and economic trade offs. The S2 lenses are most likely excellent, but without any flaw? Not realistic.The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw....
This is not the case. The Sinaron digital lenses from Sinar also take the IR glass into account, and I believe the Rodenstock HR lens lines do as well.Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.
I am sure Leica will do a fine job to bring a high quality camera to market, and there will be people who will enjoy using it. However, this whole notion of "beating" another camera/back is silly. As I tried to point out, there are a whole host of shots and situations that the S2 will not even be able to deal with. And, their lenses will deliver the performance commensurate with their cost, otherwise, there would not be enough profit for them to sustain their business. In this economy, I think photographers will be careful in their spending, and will do whatever they can to influence lower prices....and hope they do not push Leica over the edge into insolvency or termination of the camera line, like we have seen for Contax and even the Leica R and S1 cameras.... So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.
David
David,Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....
The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.
The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.
The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.
Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.
There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.
So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.
David
Hi Pete,David - thanks for your posts and also clarifying the fact that Leica isn't going to be making Leica lenses for Phase (or anyone else)- Hooray for Leica's thinking here. I think your enthusiasm is wonderful - and as a fellow Leica nut - I really look forward to the S2 and hopefully its success.
Now for some points in response.
1. You did spend some time pointing out that Leica lenses won't need digital software corrections of bad lens design - ala the HC28. WHEN Leica bring out a 28 I look forward to seeing how well it performs.
2. Regarding not corrected wides - I will be comparing Leica to Schneider and Rodenstock in 35 for Schneider and 23 and 28 for Rodenstock to see who actually makes the top of the tree glass. Don't fret I already KNOW the answer BEFORE Leica have even thought about making wides for the S2.
3. Also as far as wide open shooting goes - I am perfectly happy with the the performance of the Zeiss 110/2 in both FE and Rollie mounts and do yourelf a favou and try out teh HC 110/2 it is no slouch either. Again I look forward to Leica making a nicer lens - although I note that Leica - even with brand new lens formulations and a ( lets be frank here) dicky small format chip size ( and cetainly not a 6x6 film square ) - will be delivering a 2.5 spec set of lenses. Pretty ordinary I think.
4. Long glass? When Leica deliver a 350 or a 250 that can compare to the Zeiss formulations ( I am sure you know which lenses I am talking about) I will take notice here as well. Again though they will have designed for a weeny sized chip - and we troglodytes can say ( again) ha!
5. Whilst many might think technical camera capability is a moot point for all except minority of shooters - I do care. Alpa and soon to arive P3 and Artec thank you - please give me a break these ools do stuff that Leica 'magic' doesn't.
6. Finally - I know it doesn't matter to digi only shooters - but I LIKE being able to use film on my camera systems. Leica would do well to consider making a film body version of the S2 for the owners of the S2 lenses who are eccentric enough to like shooting film on occasion - hey WAIT a Minute!! exactly what format film would that be?? :ROTFL:
So from a prospective owner - WHEN Leica actually deliver something that can compete in the focal lengths of existing makers then I will get interested. Sounds to me that this full portfolio is going to take a few years to happen.
In the meantime I will just have to put up with second class crap from Zeiss Hasselblad Schneider and Rodenstock on a range of systems each designed to deliver the right tool for the right job.
Kind regards
Pete
Well, they are bringing out a 24mm lens this year, not a 28mm. The end result will be about the same due to the slightly smaller sensor, so we will see how good it is.1. You did spend some time pointing out that Leica lenses won't need digital software corrections of bad lens design - ala the HC28. WHEN Leica bring out a 28 I look forward to seeing how well it performs.
Not quite. f2.5 is faster than everything ever made in MF land except the 110/2, the Contax 80/2 and the Mamiya 80/1.7, AFAIK. Not exactly ordinary. And the f2.5 lenses include a 35mm, a 70mm and a 120mm Macro. The 35 and the 120 will be breaking new ground in that respect. The 24mm lens is f2.8, another first. The Hasselblad and Mamiyas are f/4, and at least the Mamiya needs to be stopped down *significantly* before it becomes sharp, f8 from some accounts.3. Also as far as wide open shooting goes - I am perfectly happy with the the performance of the Zeiss 110/2 in both FE and Rollie mounts and do yourelf a favou and try out teh HC 110/2 it is no slouch either. Again I look forward to Leica making a nicer lens - although I note that Leica - even with brand new lens formulations and a ( lets be frank here) dicky small format chip size ( and cetainly not a 6x6 film square ) - will be delivering a 2.5 spec set of lenses. Pretty ordinary I think.
Man, do your homeworkWell, they are bringing out a 24mm lens this year, not a 28mm. The end result will be about the same due to the slightly smaller sensor, so we will see how good it is.
Not quite. f2.5 is faster than everything ever made in MF land except the 110/2, the Contax 80/2 and the Mamiya 80/1.7, AFAIK. Not exactly ordinary. And the f2.5 lenses include a 35mm, a 70mm and a 120mm Macro. The 35 and the 120 will be breaking new ground in that respect. The 24mm lens is f2.8, another first. The Hasselblad and Mamiyas are f/4, and at least the Mamiya needs to be stopped down *significantly* before it becomes sharp, f8 from some accounts.
The only thing missing here is a fast portrait lens. The spec of the 100mm lens is not final, but maybe that will be it. A 100mm f2 would be a nice cherry on top.