Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 193

Thread: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

  1. #1
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Although Leica stops to produce the current R System and shifts manpower to its new flagship model S2, the S2 will be delayed till autumn 2009.

    http://www.bjp-online.com/public/sho...ml?page=845488

    And the price tag seems to become pretty high 20.000.-

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well, if that reporting is accurate, and Leica is starting to settle on both price and a bit of delay in delivery, things are looking less rosy for some of us that have been hoping for sooner and cheaper. Guess we will just have to see how it plays out. In the meantime, some of the Hasselblad stuff will come into my focus again ;-)

    LJ

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Leica only ever stated summer 2009, and late summer (as it is phrased in the Leica press release BJP refers to) is still summer. In that sense, it is not delayed.

    I don't know where the €20.000 price comes from, unless they simply refer to Herr Doktor Kaufmann's earlier statement on the matter, which was that the camera would cost less than €20.000, and hopefully below €15.000. There was no indication if the kit lens would be included for this price. I think that €15.000 is low enough to be competitive, especially with a kit lens, so if they manage this, they are in the game, IMO. €20.000 sounds too high, given Hasselblad's prices being in free-fall.
    Carsten - Website

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Carsten,
    This was exactly why I started my response with the "if that reporting is accurate" caveat. What we do not know if there has been a change since the statements from Kaufmann. August 2009 is still "Summer", whereas "Fall" would not see anything shipping before late September through December. And the price quoted here 20K Euros is at the top of the range that he was hoping to come out under. Again, things could have changed, or this could all be older "news" that is just being recycled in the article.

    LJ

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Given how long it took BJP to report on these two items online, I think it is safe to say that there is no news. The original F&H report was here, published 9 days ago:

    http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Fra...-ist-insolvent

    Photoscala is usually first with German news, and given that both F&H and Leica are here, this would be the place to look, not the BJP.
    Carsten - Website

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Almere, The Netherlands
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    In THe Netherlands a Professional Imaging show has just finished. Leica was present with the S2,and there were no hints or statements of any kind pointing to a delay. (As a side step: a nice piece, very intuitive to use, clear viewfinder, quite fast autofocus, quite easy to hold very steady) Actually they mentioned more info to be released in the next couple of weeks. Also i spoke with some photographers about the S2 and the price was rumored to be significantly below EUR15k, some even stated below EUR10k for the body. No way to confirm this, but the price crash of other MF certainly makes it uncertain anyhow. Whether this price-crash is triggered by Leica plans to enter the MF market niche, i do not know. It was however firmly stated by the Leica persons that their aim is to become a leading player in this niche. So some agressive pricing is a likely scenario.

    IQ is technology, PQ is YOU

  7. #7
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Leica mentioned late summer at PMA and price was never even hinted so not sure and all speculation at this point but if it is 20000 euros, they just lost me. My opinion and mine only is tops 15 K US Body only. This is almost double a D3X and on par with a P30 Plus and HD 31 which theses should be the market comparable and not the 39 mg which I think Leica is comparing against. It is not just the MPX size here it is a smaller sensor and more in-line with the Kodak Micro sensor backs of the HD 31 and P30 plus. At least this is the way i see the balance and besides all that stuff again my opinion to get it off the ground the price should be low for about a million reasons. Honestly I will be making a move before than anyway on something bigger and faster than my back, unless Leica can convince me the price will be in my ballpark. My phone is open and they know the number. LOL.

    Frankly in my warped world this should be 12k and that is 50 percent bigger sensor size than a D3X and 50 percent increase in price. Seems LOGICAL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Assuming accurate (who the hell knows), it is an admittedly fine line between 'late summer' and 'autumn' - might just be semantics.

    That said, Leica did just get some modest extra financing from IIRC Dr K's holding/management company due, in part, to 'delayed new products', so...

    With LFI 'test' (with LFI it's never really a 'test', but anyway...) indicating AF not on-line, slow processing and the S2 power management firmware not being functional (a.k.a. was chewing thru batteries), they may have been a bit aggressive in the timing. Tis one of the hazards of doing everything in-house.

    The price. Ouch. If true (and probably is/or close to it. This is Leica after all), the reported $$$ and (possible) delay are just not good in this market - not by anyone's definition.

    Edit: Just read the article. I do wish Leica would get it's PR/Marketing policy/strategy in one bag. Assuming not a gross misquote, a random comment by some spokesman dropping a bomb like a possible R10 in January 2010 "...if we're really lucky." is no way to inform your R base of the state of events.
    Last edited by robmac; 11th March 2009 at 08:42.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Almere, The Netherlands
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    A Hasselblad H3D-II-39 incl 80mm/2.8 lens does EUR 17k incl VAT(19%). If this is the reference for the S2, surely Leica either must have something compelling else the S2 price incl 70mm/2.5 lens should be equal or less, i would think.

    IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU

    Jan R.

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The HD 39 here in the states with body and lens is 22k, the Hd 31 is 17K with body and lens . The issue is they can't match dollar for dollar against a Hassy or a Phase that has everything already in place and there new to the market and if you want to gain market share you need to not compete with it you need to STEAL market share by cutting the price to get people in the door. I can't think of too many folks that will do a lateral shift for the same money on a system coming to market that is not even established with service, support, sales and a full system ready to rock and roll. I would love to have it as many would also but we need a lot of love here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Almere, The Netherlands
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Guy,

    Agree, so interesting times ahead of us as to what Leica will do, like you stated, to STEAL the market. Mindboggling quality difference is hard to believe, so price is the alternative i can think of.

    IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU

    Jan R.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The HD 39 here in the states with body and lens is 22k, the Hd 31 is 17K with body and lens . The issue is they can't match dollar for dollar against a Hassy or a Phase that has everything already in place and there new to the market and if you want to gain market share you need to not compete with it you need to STEAL market share by cutting the price to get people in the door. I can't think of too many folks that will do a lateral shift for the same money on a system coming to market that is not even established with service, support, sales and a full system ready to rock and roll. I would love to have it as many would also but we need a lot of love here.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I think it interesting that we keep coming around to the same point....if Leica wants to get into the market successfully with the S2, it has to price it very aggressively, it has to deliver on S&S, and it needs to get the rest of the glass done very soon, and at prices that are not so over the top it stops hearts ;-)

    The concept of "50% larger sensor, therefore only 50% higher price" is not really that far off, and when you do compare that to H3DII-31/39 pricing, $12K is "feeling" about right to get into this game for both Leica and those looking at the S2 from other lines and platforms. But hey, that is the pro consumer talking, and not the Leica marketing mavens ;-)

    LJ

  13. #13
    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hampshire, UK
    Posts
    904
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    20

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I agree with Guy on this one. The BJP (British Journal of Photography) a reliable weekly Pro journal has a press release from Leica reporting the end of the R line and stating that all R & D effort is now on getting the S2 to market in Autumn 2009 and launching the R10 in January 2010(????). They also confirm the S2 price at 20,000 Euros and as of today (I have just bought some reluctantly!) the Euro is virtually on parity with the pound sterling!

    Not too many British pro's will be ordering in advance for the S2 at this price even though the announcement states that it is aimed at fashion photographers! Eur 20K, and that's before investment in lenses!!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  14. #14
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I agree LJ .I am not even remotely worried about this thing will not perform up to spec. Most of us have owned leica and they do delivery the quality of image and having played with it , it surely will get it done. The intangibles is the part that we need to believe in. Sales, support, service and price all has to hit the mark at 100 percent on target
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below €15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

    I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.
    Carsten - Website

  16. #16
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    They did mention R10 or whatever it is called 4 months after the S2 release is the target
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  17. #17
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below 15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

    I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.
    Carsten here is something when I was at PMA that i did and have not mentioned and from a point of view that I admit maybe somewhat suspect when buying but it is a interesting comparison. Say the S2 is 16 k and i just walked out of the Leica booth went over to the Nikon booth picked up the D3X and felt pretty close to the same as the S2 than asked the guy the price, reply 8 k. So immediately in my head i go Hmmm 2 for the price of one. Than i walk over to the Sony booth grab the A900 and it feels the same as the S2, D3x and ask the guy how much , reply 3k. Hmmm 5 for 1 and pocket change. Now forget everything else with sensor size and all that for a second. Do you think that Joe Smith doing the same thing that is NOT overly concerned about pushing the envelope but can get a 24 mpx high end DSLR for 3k is going to say for 15k I can buy one body and 6 lenses or so.

    Do people think the same thing and it is happening right now the difference in price between the Sony at 3k and a D3X same MPX and same sensor , they can get 2 Sony's and a 24-70 lens for the cost of ONE Nikon D3x. I know comparing apples to oranges and folks that don't exactly think like you or I and most of this forum BUT this does make you bang your head against the wall.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below 15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

    I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.
    Carsten,
    Not sure I agree about the "price gets insane" part. We have seen that in the past, and with significantly larger sensors in backs. But this S2 sensor is NOT that big. It is using a size that has been done before and at pixel pitch that is being done now, so nothing super new/advanced there. The body and all it offers is totally new in many respects, but it is still pretty much a shell crammed with a sensor and electronics. So, going over the top on "brand" is not going to help Leica penetrate, let alone "steal" any market share. So, from a business perspective, they are going to have to play this market segment they are creating, and there is a pretty narrow slot they have to move through. Price it too low and they will hurt themselves and possibly impart a "too cheap" message. Price it too high and they will not get many takers, so it will wither on the vine. Since it is NOT a full-bore MF system like Phase or Hasselblad, but it IS a lot more than what is in 35mm DSLR-land, folks are going to expect pricing to be somewhere in between.....at least I am. I have paid the "Leica premium" before, but times are different now, and I am much less likely to overspend just for the red dot when I can get as much or more with other things that cost less, but deliver also.

    LJ

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    42
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The Red Dot won't be worth a premium to me; I cover all my camera logos over with gaffer's tape.

    It is all right to talk about the prices getting insane as long as you are spending other people's money. Impecunious me thinks that the S2 is only worth $9K to me i.e. about 50% more than the Canon 1DsM3.

    I know that Carsten will be first in line for one at any price. Are you getting the one with Serial Number 002, Carsten? 001 has been reserved for Chief Kaufmann.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    So IF the S2 IS 20,000 Euros or thereabouts, where does that put any possible baby brother -- assuming they get, as they put it "...very lucky"?

    Given any R10 will share a lot of the same tech with the S2, its' also going to share a very good percentage of the hardware (and labor) costs -- even more so if it comes out while the S2 is still immature (a big assumption) and thus hasn't recovered a lot of its development costs.

    Having more bodies using the same parts, etc will save development costs on the R10 and help recover common R&D costs, but any R10 will be priced relative to that of the S2 - partly by choice and partly out of necessity.

    So, a 12,000 Euro R10 vs a 20,000 Euro S2, or how about a 10,000 Euro SLR? Lot of coin for an SLR these days, let alone in 2010/11 - I don't care whose glass you can bolt to the front of it.

    The difference between any possible R10 when/if it's released and whatever a D3x/D700x/1Ds_/A9xx is going for at the time will buy a LOT of older R lenses and adapters, spare bodies - not to mention AF Nikon G and Sony/Zeiss glass.

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    About the price ratio of low-end vs. high-end, if you compare a Canon EOS 50D versus the 5D2 and 1Ds3, you will see that for 33% extra MP, the price more than doubles. For the 1Ds3, you only get an improved body, yet pay 3x as much or more. For Nikon the story is the same. For Sony, it is the same. For Phase One, it is the same: a P65+ has a 2.7x the MP of a P25+, yet costs 5x as much. It is the same for every brand. Comparing across unlike product ranges has no meaning. Should a Canon 50D cost the same as a Canon G10? That isn't the way things work, and it isn't the way they will be priced. It would be nice for us, but would probably put the relevant companies out of business.

    The S2 will be worth and cost much more than 1.5x a D3x. The lenses will be so much better than average Nikon lenses (or Canon). If the price is really only 15.000, that is only 2x as much as a Nikon D3x. I consider that quite amazing for a sensor delivering 1.5x as much resolution, but in a body with a much larger sensor.

    ---

    Forrest, I am not rich. Photography is my primary hobby and my passion, and if I really want something photographic, I can save for it and get it, provided it is not a new P65+ or anything like that. I am a programmer. If I get the S2, I will have to sell all my Contax 645 stuff, one of my Hasselblad V cameras, and perhaps a Leica M lens or two, and even then, I will have some money to save up. I don't own a car, because it isn't necessary in Berlin. I don't own an apartment, because I have moved around a fair amount. I have some disposable income, because I live a modest life in most ways, except for photography. I will not be first in line, but if the camera is really great, I might save up for one.

    In answer to the "red dot" argument: it isn't, and never was about the red dot. It was about the excellence of the lenses and the cameras. The price is high, but for some, what they got was worth more than the money they had to pay. It is like that for me. I found the Canon 5D horribly disappointing, but the M8 I loved from the beginning. The teething problems was something I had to put up with to own this camera. I could have bought any other 35mm camera I wanted for similar money, but there wasn't a single one I liked as much, so the choice was obvious for me.
    Carsten - Website

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Carsten,
    Couple of things tossed into the equations that may or may not matter. In the case of your Canon line examples, there is a lot more going on from line to line. The 5DMkII is not build the same as the 1DsMkIII, and it is NOT just the weather sealing. It is the different and dual processors, the better shutter, the buffer and throughput and a host of other little things. Do they add up to all that is being asked for in price? Many will argue they do not, yet are willing to pay for them as they think it delivers what is needed.

    In the case of the S2, it will be offering much of the features in the top end DSLRs, so more of the argument is over the sensor. The lenses are a completely separate issue, for the most part, and premiums associated with high end Leica glass may remain. So if Leica hits the market with a body that is priced way out line, it will not be well received by the folks Leica claims to be targeting. Because the other MF lines are back, body and lens, the pricing of the S2 should be close to back+body, even though the technology is integrated differently, but more like what is done on 35mm DSLR platform.

    Basically, I just do not see any other line or models that fit what Leica is attempting to do. There is only one body right now. If one looked at the Canon 1-series, for example, there is a significant price differential between the 1DMkIII and the 1DsMkIII, which is offering just over double the pixels.....for nearly double the price....essentially the same body, but different sensors and very minor other things. Nikon is much the same, sort of, since they cannibalized their own D3 with the D700, but the D3 and D3x share about the same price differential for just doubling the pixel count. So Leica goes for 50% more pixels (more or less) at 56% greater sensor size, but most other feature things being equal to the top end DSLRs. So why should the price point NOT be about 50-60% higher, rather than 100-200% higher? Just how I am looking at all of this right now.

    LJ

    P.S. And the talk about the R10.....come on folks, the darn S2 is not even out and people are already trying to "price" a camera that has never been officially announced, that has no specs, and is rumored to be quite different from the older R-line. Talk about fantasy wishing and speculation.

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Carsten here is something when I was at PMA that i did and have not mentioned and from a point of view that I admit maybe somewhat suspect when buying but it is a interesting comparison. Say the S2 is 16 k and i just walked out of the Leica booth went over to the Nikon booth picked up the D3X and felt pretty close to the same as the S2 than asked the guy the price, reply 8 k. So immediately in my head i go Hmmm 2 for the price of one. Than i walk over to the Sony booth grab the A900 and it feels the same as the S2, D3x and ask the guy how much , reply 3k. Hmmm 5 for 1 and pocket change. Now forget everything else with sensor size and all that for a second. Do you think that Joe Smith doing the same thing that is NOT overly concerned about pushing the envelope but can get a 24 mpx high end DSLR for 3k is going to say for 15k I can buy one body and 6 lenses or so.

    Do people think the same thing and it is happening right now the difference in price between the Sony at 3k and a D3X same MPX and same sensor , they can get 2 Sony's and a 24-70 lens for the cost of ONE Nikon D3x. I know comparing apples to oranges and folks that don't exactly think like you or I and most of this forum BUT this does make you bang your head against the wall.
    Well Guy, I'm not necessarily a Joe Smith .... and I did exactly that kind of math that lead me to the A900 over the D3X. Here you have 8K verses 3K (actually, I paid $2,700.) and gained the 3 Zeiss lenses and a Sony 50/1.4 with change left over. You just get real in your assements of need and expense in times like this ... and all the speculatively and lofty aspects of "this is marginally or perceptually better than that" fall by the wayside. "It's get real time in the old town tonight."

    Speculation about when and how much can go back and forth until "the fat Leica sings" ... then we'll know.

    Based on my last 20 years of history with Leica it'll be ... 1) Late ... and 2) a lot.

    If it's really cool, I'll wait for the S2-MKII to slash the S2 price in half ... and then enjoy one at the price it should have been.

    In the meantime, I hope Leica is successful because what I'm stashing the cash for is a M9 FF .... where Leica is king and I have a ton of money in glass just waiting. So I want them to be profitable with the S2 so they can make my camera ...

  24. #24
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well I know my point about the D3X and Sony A900 is hitting home with a lot of folks and even myself looking at that purchase. It's like a weight and balance issue and you don't slide over to the heavy side without a really good darn reason. And your not Joe Smith which makes it even more relevant , the pro's are doing the same weight and balancing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  25. #25
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    LJ

    P.S. And the talk about the R10.....come on folks, the darn S2 is not even out and people are already trying to "price" a camera that has never been officially announced, that has no specs, and is rumored to be quite different from the older R-line. Talk about fantasy wishing and speculation.

    You talking Leica my friend.

    I love them but just the word Leica brings out a ton of passion, I totally understand it , been there and have gold scratch that platinum T -shirts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Guy,
    Passion and all is fine, but some of these threads have gone from possibly real to purely imagined, based on what is actually known. The stuff about the R10 put me completely over the edge. Here we are still trying to get anything nailed down about the S2 that is credible and figure how that fits into things, and folks are spewing fantasy dreams over an R10 as part of the equation when in actual terms it does not yet exist beyond an off-hand comment or two.....no specs, no real projected delivery date, no information on lenses beyond Leica using some tech learned from the S2. In other words, nada, zip, zilch as far as a real camera goes at this point. Just cracks me up too.

    LJ

  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Heck they have been talking the R10 since they discontinued the DMR and that was a year ago or longer. Go figure that one out. Beyond fantasy. We need to enlist a shrink on the forums, he make a ton of money. LOL

    Only kidding folks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #28
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Another thing to consider in these times, aside from the financial situation which makes budgets for spending on equipment tighter, is that the quality has improved greatly in the last few years. Today, the A900 with a few Zeiss lenses is quite satisfactory compared to trying to bolt on alternative lenses.to the Canon 5D of a couple of years ago. So what you are getting for the money for a Sony or Nikon today is more promising.

  29. #29
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well said . Scary thing is not many D3x are selling but the 5d2 is selling like hots cakes. Big price difference
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  30. #30
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    From my perspective, the longer the wait for the R10 the better because I might even have money to buy one in 2010! Until then, I am happy shooting the DMR and M8. Heck, all I really NEED is another firmware update (or two) for the DMR with a few improvements and that would suffice!

  31. #31
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    iiiNelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    3,187
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I'm glad more people are looking at topics like this more realistically. It's a point I brought up to no avail when the S2 was introduced albeit with some different arguing points. I think most people when they buy higher end products expect to invest into products 2 or 3 generations ahead of the regular consumer models. Leica has a habit of just meeting the competition on most of their products but most people buy into Leica for the glass and slight "quirkiness" of the company. By all accounts the M8 body doesn't give that much more IQ over the 5D which could be had with the 24-105 lens last summer for $2200 after rebate. Canon smartly developed the 5DmkII to be near the same price point smartly because the bottom end of cameras is slowly catching up to the mid level which has slowly caught up to the higher end. I think Leica in a lot of ways is crazy for pricing the M8.2 so high above the standard M8 for essentially the same thing with fixes to design flaws. They need to price the S2 right for them to survive and it's still my opinion that a $6000 R10 body with 75% of the S2 design would do more to save the company seeing how there's already a market for the R system.

    I think everyone has great arguments for and against but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a sub $1500 FF dSLR kit within 2 years provided the economy recovers and everyone will need to prepare for that. I think that's why we're seeing so many more video options in the higher end stuff now.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  32. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Rye, NY
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    the p65+ back may be holding a high price due to the unique postition is holds..for now..the pressure on leica to come in "at-market" I hope will be factored into its pricing.. hmm, 15k a pop.. maybe 500 sell..thats 7.5m..10k each, at least 3500units sell..thats 35 million..that should give leica pause to consider...I hope.
    but what do I know, I can't even sell a stock photo for more than a hundred bucks these days. we who shoot for pay are being squeezed from both ends!
    only if I could be satisfied with my new plastic e510 oly..not!

  33. #33
    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,202
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    496

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    The difference between any possible R10 when/if it's released and whatever a D3x/D700x/1Ds_/A9xx is going for at the time will buy a LOT of older R lenses and adapters, spare bodies - not to mention AF Nikon G and Sony/Zeiss glass.
    If and when a R10 gets released it will probably be priced like every other Leica SLR, which was at a premium to the high end Canon or Nikon. In other words, D3x price plus a bit.

    Robert

  34. #34
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    More made up numbers: if the S2 cost 10k to make (Made in Germany):

    15k a pop, 500 sell: profit 2.5m
    10k a pop, 3500 sell: profit 0



    We need to know more to talk intelligently about this. Leica has surely done these calculations.
    Carsten - Website

  35. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    More made up numbers: if the S2 cost 10k to make (Made in Germany):

    15k a pop, 500 sell: profit 2.5m
    10k a pop, 3500 sell: profit 0



    We need to know more to talk intelligently about this. Leica has surely done these calculations.
    Well, your last statement I agree with very much....the made up numbers....not so much. Fact is that we do NOT know what Leica's costs are for the S2. Say we were able to put together some rough estimates and other more wild guesses....we do not know their amortization schedule for this system, profit margin ramps, or anything else. Basically, we are blind to that and the rest is pure speculation for pricing and Leica strategy.

    That being said, what we do know is what the market pressures are looking like. We have some idea of interest. We have heard from folks about what their personal on/off points are, etc. So, if a segment of the potential buyer base says anything north of $13K (made up number) creates a "no buy" reaction, that does help narrow an entry price possibility, but it could clash severely with Leica's internal plans for what they expect to accomplish and what returns they expect to get over what period of time.

    My personal strategy is going to be driven a lot by price points for everything in the S system. So a "free" body may be attractive (like a cheap printer), but if the glass and services are over the top (like the ink tends to be), it has to be factored in over the prospective "life" of the device. Newer models may deliver a lot more, or may only be incremental....another thing we are pretty clueless about.

    It can be fun to speculate on all of this, but reality will bring things back to the ground once the products and prices are released.

    LJ

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    A follow on to my own post....sorry....

    There is a big difference, I think, between the S2 system and the M8 release. Not talking about service and stuff, but just the nature of the body. For the M8, Leica could ask, and did get a premium for the body. There was already a very large installed base of users and more importantly, lenses to go onto that new body. (Yeah, the filter and coding issue was a bit of a kludge, but Leica extracted its profits from both.) So an M8 buyer was less likely to buy a lot of new glass when they bought the camera, and a lot of folks did not buy tons of new glass. (Some may recall all the older lens discussions and searched for LTM-M mounts that folks could code their own lenses, etc., plus the endless comparisons with CV and Zeiss glass.) With the S2, things are way different, from what we know. There is no legacy glass. Anybody buying an S2 body will have to buy new S lenses. Leica does not have to make any profit on the body, as they could make a lot of that up with margins on the lenses. So Leica could sell the S2 at their cost, sell lenses at some hefty margin, and still do well. Recall, the lenses are all sharing a new manufacture line, and lots of the same parts, so volumes there can carry things a lot further with any reasonable margin. If you think about it, that is really the part that folks are not figuring into the calculations much. What if the 70mm f2.5 CS lens cost Leica only $600 to make, and they sell it for $2,000? (these are just purely hypothetical numbers as an example) Suddenly their profit on the S2 plus a lens jumps to $1,400, even selling the body at "cost". Add two or three more lenses to the kit, and the profit margin on the body becomes rather irrelevant to some degree.

    The flip could also be true.....charge a bigger margin on the body and less on the lenses, but make up with more lens volume. A third scenario, and one that Leica has traditionally followed is to overcharge on both body and lenses. If that becomes the case, or if folks sense that is the case again, especially in this economic climate, do not count on booming sales. The number of options for other MF systems is still quite large and price variable, so it will be a lot harder selling something that is perceived to be overpriced with respect to the rest of the market.

    Again.....way too many things we just do not know in order to make "calls" on what may happen. If there was a lot of legacy or third party option glass, I would bet on a higher body price. Without those options, and knowing there is a longer margin on glass, I am tending to bet on a slightly lower body price. Of course, I am also ready to ignore all of it if Leica goes its traditional route with high body and high glass costs ;-)

    LJ

  37. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    42
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    If the S2 costs 10K Euros to make, where does that leave the Leica distributors' and the dealers' profit margins?

  38. #38
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    iiiNelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    3,187
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    A follow on to my own post....sorry....

    There is a big difference, I think, between the S2 system and the M8 release. Not talking about service and stuff, but just the nature of the body. For the M8, Leica could ask, and did get a premium for the body. There was already a very large installed base of users and more importantly, lenses to go onto that new body. (Yeah, the filter and coding issue was a bit of a kludge, but Leica extracted its profits from both.) So an M8 buyer was less likely to buy a lot of new glass when they bought the camera, and a lot of folks did not buy tons of new glass. (Some may recall all the older lens discussions and searched for LTM-M mounts that folks could code their own lenses, etc., plus the endless comparisons with CV and Zeiss glass.) With the S2, things are way different, from what we know. There is no legacy glass. Anybody buying an S2 body will have to buy new S lenses. Leica does not have to make any profit on the body, as they could make a lot of that up with margins on the lenses. So Leica could sell the S2 at their cost, sell lenses at some hefty margin, and still do well. Recall, the lenses are all sharing a new manufacture line, and lots of the same parts, so volumes there can carry things a lot further with any reasonable margin. If you think about it, that is really the part that folks are not figuring into the calculations much. What if the 70mm f2.5 CS lens cost Leica only $600 to make, and they sell it for $2,000? (these are just purely hypothetical numbers as an example) Suddenly their profit on the S2 plus a lens jumps to $1,400, even selling the body at "cost". Add two or three more lenses to the kit, and the profit margin on the body becomes rather irrelevant to some degree.

    The flip could also be true.....charge a bigger margin on the body and less on the lenses, but make up with more lens volume. A third scenario, and one that Leica has traditionally followed is to overcharge on both body and lenses. If that becomes the case, or if folks sense that is the case again, especially in this economic climate, do not count on booming sales. The number of options for other MF systems is still quite large and price variable, so it will be a lot harder selling something that is perceived to be overpriced with respect to the rest of the market.

    Again.....way too many things we just do not know in order to make "calls" on what may happen. If there was a lot of legacy or third party option glass, I would bet on a higher body price. Without those options, and knowing there is a longer margin on glass, I am tending to bet on a slightly lower body price. Of course, I am also ready to ignore all of it if Leica goes its traditional route with high body and high glass costs ;-)

    LJ
    This is exactly a point I was about to make and it's very common in the electronics world to "give away" the hardware in order to profit on accessories (read: lenses, batteries, cases, extended warranties, etc.) I think that would be a best case scenario for Leica is they are to remain viable. I fear your last scenario may be the case though (overcharging on body and lenses) but we will see soon enough I guess.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    If the S2 costs 10K Euros to make, where does that leave the Leica distributors' and the dealers' profit margins?
    Depends on the price, right? So, if it sells for 15k, then there is enough margin for both Leica and the dealer, on the body. But maybe, as others suggest, the body will go for close to cost, and the dealer will have to make up for it with lens sales.
    Carsten - Website

  40. #40
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well said . Scary thing is not many D3x are selling but the 5d2 is selling like hots cakes. Big price difference
    Thing is that I'm willing to bet that only a tiny fraction of those causing the 5D mkII hotcake situation are pro's. People keep saying that the 5D mkII is so popular but I don't think that it is relevant to pro photographers as a statistic.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  41. #41
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Though many of the arguments floating aroung here sound quite logical for me, I ask myself why was Leica in the past several times financially in big trouble though they sold bodies and lenses that high priced???

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    That is a tunnel view on a complex situation. The R system probably wasn't selling well because it was missing features that people wanted. The M system wasn't selling because there was no digital solution for the longest time. The financial difficult arose out of improper management behaviour in the face of low income. Much more cannot be said without more detailed numbers.
    Carsten - Website

  43. #43
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well said . Scary thing is not many D3x are selling but the 5d2 is selling like hots cakes. Big price difference
    The 5D2 and its quality and price were also the main reason, why I kind of switched from Nikon to Canon. Got tired of waiting for high speed Nikkor primes and did NOT want to pay for the D3X as its IQ did NOT convince me. And price is far too high for that IQ.

    Thus the 5D2 won. And finally Canon over Nikon - at least in my equipment.

    See how fast this finally can happen.

  44. #44
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    This is exactly a point I was about to make and it's very common in the electronics world to "give away" the hardware in order to profit on accessories (read: lenses, batteries, cases, extended warranties, etc.) I think that would be a best case scenario for Leica is they are to remain viable. I fear your last scenario may be the case though (overcharging on body and lenses) but we will see soon enough I guess.
    Fully agree!

    If you look into the MF products available already today and their prices, Leica has to be cheaper than say a H3D2 with 39MP back. And this including standard lens. So it must be less than 15.000.- excl. VAT1

    Is Leica going to do that? I really doubt. I rather think they will charge a premium for a camera which is not capable of doing what others can do in IQ. And rather argue for their "own" Leica Format design and how great and good the lenses are and that more MP are not necessary, but rather disturbing. And then say one could wait for the S3 which would then have maybe 60MP?

    No thank you - not another useless wait of many years. I need and want to work now with a high end MF digital system and thus Leica's S System is just dead for me!

  45. #45
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    That is a tunnel view on a complex situation. The R system probably wasn't selling well because it was missing features that people wanted. The M system wasn't selling because there was no digital solution for the longest time. The financial difficult arose out of improper management behaviour in the face of low income. Much more cannot be said without more detailed numbers.
    The main feature which people wanted was a good and FF digital solution! And it did not happen, since they started discussing the DMR - remember this was back in 2001.

    No wonder why they are under such pressure today - they lost their market in SLR completely to Canon and Nikon. And some high end shooters went already into MF systems. And now they are playing with a new system and a new format and think the world will just jump on their new standard - as it was the case 80-90 years ago with the first M cameras developed by Barnack. But the world has enough standards today, no need for another one! Just take FT as an example - it is somehow dying and does not show any big and bright future.

  46. #46
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The 5D2 and its quality and price were also the main reason, why I kind of switched from Nikon to Canon. Got tired of waiting for high speed Nikkor primes and did
    NOT want to pay for the D3X as its IQ did NOT convince me. And price is far too high for that IQ.

    Thus the 5D2 won. And finally Canon over Nikon - at least in my equipment.

    See how fast this finally can happen.
    Are you saying the d3x does not convince you regarding quality and IQ, but the 5dII does?

  47. #47
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I need and want to work now with a high end MF digital system and thus Leica's S System is just dead for me!
    So which MF-system will you buy now?

  48. #48
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I am with Tom here. In every test or testimonial I have seen, the IQ of the D3x has never once been the issue, as it is simply better than other 35mm cameras at this time. The issue is price, and perhaps the lenses. The issue with the 5D2 is lack of weather proofing and susceptibility to moisture and the environment, as well as something lacking in the IQ department. I don't quite recall what the issue is now, but I believe that it smoothes the images too much as higher ISO.
    Carsten - Website

  49. #49
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am with Tom here. In every test or testimonial I have seen, the IQ of the D3x has never once been the issue, as it is simply better than other 35mm cameras at this time. The issue is price, and perhaps the lenses.
    What's the issue with the lenses? If I were to get another 35mm DSLR, it would probably be Nikon rather than Canon just FOR the lenses, especially the 14-24mm G, so I'm curious to hear what you're referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I believe that it smoothes the images too much as higher ISO.
    I'm fairly sure that Canon and others (even P1) are performing noise reduction in-camera. Unfortunately reviewers don't take this into account when comparing noise between cameras, so it becomes a dirty marketing trick to an extent, although for some people they are happier to have the camera do it than do it themselves anyway. I just wish people didn't compare the images as if on equal footing, and didn't perpetuate the myth that RAW files contain only 'raw' data

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    What's the issue with the lenses? If I were to get another 35mm DSLR, it would probably be Nikon rather than Canon just FOR the lenses, especially the 14-24mm G, so I'm curious to hear what you're referring to.
    Partly it is public knowledge, partly it is just a personal take. The 14-24 and 24-70 are by all accounts fantastic lenses, as is the 200/2. There are some other lenses in the range with the same high quality, but there are also many which are older or problematic in some way. For example, the first 70-200/2.8 review I saw on FF remarked that the edges were really not up to the level of quality of the middle, and that a review of this lens was in order. The 85/1.4 is not nearly as good as the Leica 80/1.4 or the Canon 85/1.2 II. The 50/1.4 is a plastic wonder, which bothers me personally. The 100/2.8 VR is not meant to be as sharp as the previous version. There are simply many of the older Nikon primes which don't measure up to the standards the D3x demands. Most of Nikon's recent lenses are DX lenses. Very few FX lenses have been released in recent times. I have little knowledge of the long teles. I think in general that they are very good, and the most common criticism is that not enough of them have VR.

    Secondly, the Nikon boke is often not all that pleasing. I think that Nikon often over-corrects spherical aberration, leading to harsh rings in the background. This might be a nice artistic effect if that is what you are after, but for general or pro portrait work, for example, it is not desirable.

    In general, I have a very high regard for the Nikon system, but if you pick only the best lenses, you might have some trouble filling in your lens lineup.
    Carsten - Website

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •