Leica S-E / S2 or something else

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Thanks for the links. Using f/13 on the Canon and f/16 on the Leica pretty much takes both into diffraction limited territory. The reason they find a bit more sharpness with the Canon is that has smaller pixels.

The technical explanation in that both lens and sensor have an MTF. Once you stop down beyond f/8 or so, any good lens will be limited by diffraction. The sensor also has an MTF and that only depends on the pixel aperture. The MTF of the system is the MTF of the lens multiplied with the MTF of the sensor.

It is a nice test, but it says very little. One interesting aspect is that you will get better results with a high resolution camera, even when diffraction dominates.

Best regards
Erik

No way would I touch a used Leica S2 or 006/SE. I sold mine it was a nightmare owning it.

Unless you buy a new lens, consider it a lottery getting one that doesn't have it's AF fail too. Camera or lens failure is a trip to Germany and months without a camera plus extra cost on top.

I think if I were considering a Leica S2 now I would go for a new Canon 5DS R instead. Take a look at this S2 v 5DS comparison.
https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...reflex/tests/canon-5dsr-1406.html&prev=search

 

[DB5]

That's correct, but as I said earlier, technical ability is important only as far as fulfilling our vision and not for its own sake.

Sure it is, for some. Some just like cameras and image quality and have no desire to fulfil an artistic vision. That is OK too.

 

[DB5]

Hi,

Thanks for the links. Using f/13 on the Canon and f/16 on the Leica pretty much takes both into diffraction limited territory. The reason they find a bit more sharpness with the Canon is that has smaller pixels.

The technical explanation in that both lens and sensor have an MTF. Once you stop down beyond f/8 or so, any good lens will be limited by diffraction. The sensor also has an MTF and that only depends on the pixel aperture. The MTF of the system is the MTF of the lens multiplied with the MTF of the sensor.

It is a nice test, but it says very little. One interesting aspect is that you will get better results with a high resolution camera, even when diffraction dominates.

Best regards
Erik

I wouldn't choose a Canon 5DS R over a Leica S for image quality but if that is your budget than the S is not a wise choice.

You are better buying a brand new camera with a full warranty over an old camera with a bad reputation for reliability and a good likelihood of having to spend hundreds, thousands of dollars on it and it being out of the country for months at a time. There are reports of these cameras costing people $5000-7000 on new sensors and electronics. They are a ticking time bomb.

The test in that link is adequate enough to show how comparable the cameras are. The Canon image is very good but it's tonality, colour and contrast is more harsh than the Leica. It has the same flaws as any other 35mm camera. You get some good things and some not as good things.

But with the Canon you get a brand new camera with full warranty and a large percentage of the image quality, which in some ways is better, some ways worse.

 

[Bernard]

There are reports of these cameras costing people $5000-7000 on new sensors and electronics.

Confirmed reports?
I follow the usual (English language) discussion sites, and so far I've read one person tell a tale about another person (who was never named, and never joined the thread) who had to pay thousands for an S-007 sensor replacement. This was at a time when every single 007 was still under the original 3 year warranty, so it seems doubtful. nevertheless, that tale has been repeated numerous times on several web sites.

Everything else I've read was people who were afraid that Leica would charge them huge amounts, but never confirm, or later mention that the repair was free, or had a nominal charge.

The internet is an echo chamber. Everybody has "heard reports," but I never seem to find the original source of those reports.
Do you know more about this? Perhaps the original source is on a German-language forum (or some other language that I do not read).

 

[Abstraction]

Confirmed reports?
I follow the usual (English language) discussion sites, and so far I've read one person tell a tale about another person (who was never named, and never joined the thread) who had to pay thousands for an S-007 sensor replacement. This was at a time when every single 007 was still under the original 3 year warranty, so it seems doubtful. nevertheless, that tale has been repeated numerous times on several web sites.

Everything else I've read was people who were afraid that Leica would charge them huge amounts, but never confirm, or later mention that the repair was free, or had a nominal charge.

The internet is an echo chamber. Everybody has "heard reports," but I never seem to find the original source of those reports.
Do you know more about this? Perhaps the original source is on a German-language forum (or some other language that I do not read).

These issues seem to be well documented and admitted by Leica, so I don't think there's any controversy as to whether these issues exist. Here are some links regarding these issues:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5573361086/leica-offers-free-fix-for-faulty-af-in-some-s-lenses



https://petapixel.com/2014/12/10/le...osion-issue-company-offers-free-replacements/

 

[Bernard]

These issues seem to be well documented and admitted by Leica, so I don't think there's any controversy as to whether these issues exist.

I am not denying that some S sensors have had issues, I am wondering about the cost, which some people quote at $5000 to $7000.
I have never read of anyone paying that price, or receiving a quote for that price from Leica. It's always second or third-hand information.

I find it particularly intriguing when people claim that "they heard" of someone else paying that for a faulty sensor on an S-007. That camera has a three year warranty, and it was released less than three years ago.

Surely someone must have first-hand information, rather than repeating (and perhaps augmenting) what they read somewhere else (and which wasn't first-hand either).

 

[Abstraction]

I am not denying that some S sensors have had issues, I am wondering about the cost, which some people quote at $5000 to $7000.
I have never read of anyone paying that price, or receiving a quote for that price from Leica. It's always second or third-hand information.

I find it particularly intriguing when people claim that "they heard" of someone else paying that for a faulty sensor on an S-007. That camera has a three year warranty, and it was released less than three years ago.

Surely someone must have first-hand information, rather than repeating (and perhaps augmenting) what they read somewhere else (and which wasn't first-hand either).

It is my understanding that the sensor issue was pretty wide spread. One of the articles I linked to talks about the sensor replacement for the Leica M and the price Leica quoted was $1,800. $5,000 doesn't seem unreasonable given the price delta of the Leica S vs Leica M.

 

[Paratom]

It is my understanding that the sensor issue was pretty wide spread. One of the articles I linked to talks about the sensor replacement for the Leica M and the price Leica quoted was $1,800. $5,000 doesn't seem unreasonable given the price delta of the Leica S vs Leica M.

I just had contact with Leica some days ago and was told that there was one production lot of S006 sensors which can show the sensor problem.
I asked because in case I would sell my S006 I wanted to doublecheck everything is fine with the sensor.
I know some people who own a S006 and so far non of them had this problem. So my understanding: yes it can occur, but no, its not like every second camera gets a problem. I have had the S2, S006 and S007 and 8 lenses. First of all I had very few repairs/service requests (most with the S2) and second I never had to pay a penny. Thats no guarantee for others but my experience in this regard with Leica is very good and certainly at least as good as experience with repair from Canon or Nikon. It is allways good to have a good store as well.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Or something else...

Hi,

I would take a long look at the Fuji GFX. Like the Leica, it is a modern system, designed around the 44x33 mm sensor size. Of course, it is a Fuji not a Leica. If that is good or bad, opinions may differ.

There are basic differences between the Leica S and the Fuji:

• Leica is DSLR while Fuji is EVF. EVF-s can be nice. They essentially can show a what you see is what you get image. You can enlarge any part of the image to actual pixel view - which enables exact focus. Also, when shooting in dark areas an EVF is very bright.
• Leica is using phase detecting AF. Phase detection is fast - but not as accurate as contrast detection. Fuji uses contrast detection, that has the advantage that focusing is done on the sensor itself, so no alignment issues are possible. Fuji has focus points spread over whole of the sensor. So you can select AF at any point of the image. Fuji has long experience with contrast detection.
• Neither company has disclosed any roadmap. But Fuji says that the lenses are designed for 100 MP. Sony has announced 100 MP versions of it's 44x33 mm sensors with part numbers and all. They are supposed to arrive 2018. But, things tend to take time. Hopefully, when the 100MP sensors arrive they will also sport on sensor phase detection. That improves AF capability a lot.
• Jim Kasson, a retired scientist with a foible for analysing stuff, has tested a lot of lenses on the GFX and it seems that system performs incredibly well.

The Fuji system is very affordable, compared to a new Leica S.

Hasselblad makes a similar system, called X1D. That system also has a new lens line, with high performing lenses. Prices are higher than for Fuji and Hasselblad doesn't have the experience of building EVF cameras for many years. It seems that Hasselblad was overwhelmed by demand, but now they sort of sorted out both production and lens line.

I would look at those systems before spending a lot of money.

Best regards
Erik

 

[Bernard]

Erik,

The original question was from a user who wants an optical viewfinder, and doesn't care much about high ISO or megapixels.

Your points, while valid, address none of his concerns.

On the other hand, it sounds like you are seriously considering getting a Fuji. Can't wait to read your impressions.

Paratom, on the other hand, has answered one key question: sensor issues on the S series are limited to one sensor batch of the TYP 006.

 

[daf]

Paratom, on the other hand, has answered one key question: sensor issues on the S series are limited to one sensor batch of the TYP 006.

Now if it only affect one batch....then we want to know which bach, which serial number ?

 

[glenerrolrd]

I am not denying that some S sensors have had issues, I am wondering about the cost, which some people quote at $5000 to $7000.
I have never read of anyone paying that price, or receiving a quote for that price from Leica. It's always second or third-hand information.

I find it particularly intriguing when people claim that "they heard" of someone else paying that for a faulty sensor on an S-007. That camera has a three year warranty, and it was released less than three years ago.

Surely someone must have first-hand information, rather than repeating (and perhaps augmenting) what they read somewhere else (and which wasn't first-hand either).

Bernard did you read my posts ? One of my close friends and shooting buddy got a scratch on his sensor from cleaning ...his quote was $7000 from Leica . He negotiated a price of $5000 . He paid for the sensor replacement

My S2 was sent for a problem with the rear LCD caused by a screen protector ..Leica returned with a quote for $8800...$1800 to replace the screen and $7000 to replace the sensor . Since I had never cleaned the sensor and Leica would not send a photograph of the scratches ...it came down to Leica was going to pay for it or they would lose pretty good customer .
The marketing department paid for it . This problem was in Germany and had nothing to do with NJ .

That same S2 I was attempting to trade in for a S 007 and had a price from my dealer . The sensor was determined to be corroded ..this is less than 12 months after it was replaced . The dealer got NJ to agree to a trade in value rather than another wait for a sensor replacement . It was less than my previously agreed upon deal . Ultimately my dealer honored the original trade in price .

Its important to know that often the corrosion issue does t show up in your captures because it is often confused with a few small dust spots . I know I never noticed any issues with my S2 ..until I attempted to sell it .

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

You cannot scratch the sensor, only the IR filter in front of it. The problem may be that replacing that filter may necessitate a disassembly and reassembly of the camera.

Best regards
Erik

Bernard did you read my posts ? One of my close friends and shooting buddy got a scratch on his sensor from cleaning ...his quote was $7000 from Leica . He negotiated a price of $5000 . He paid for the sensor replacement

My S2 was sent for a problem with the rear LCD caused by a screen protector ..Leica returned with a quote for $8800...$1800 to replace the screen and $7000 to replace the sensor . Since I had never cleaned the sensor and Leica would not send a photograph of the scratches ...it came down to Leica was going to pay for it or they would lose pretty good customer .
The marketing department paid for it . This problem was in Germany and had nothing to do with NJ .

That same S2 I was attempting to trade in for a S 007 and had a price from my dealer . The sensor was determined to be corroded ..this is less than 12 months after it was replaced . The dealer got NJ to agree to a trade in value rather than another wait for a sensor replacement . It was less than my previously agreed upon deal . Ultimately my dealer honored the original trade in price .

Its important to know that often the corrosion issue does t show up in your captures because it is often confused with a few small dust spots . I know I never noticed any issues with my S2 ..until I attempted to sell it .

 

[DB5]

I am not denying that some S sensors have had issues, I am wondering about the cost, which some people quote at $5000 to $7000.
I have never read of anyone paying that price, or receiving a quote for that price from Leica. It's always second or third-hand information.

I find it particularly intriguing when people claim that "they heard" of someone else paying that for a faulty sensor on an S-007. That camera has a three year warranty, and it was released less than three years ago.

Surely someone must have first-hand information, rather than repeating (and perhaps augmenting) what they read somewhere else (and which wasn't first-hand either).

I only read about it in a forum on one more than one account that this 5000-7000 repair bill was for a 006 and S2 models, hence the relevance to this conversation.

Not a 007. That is you introducing your own information into it.