Cheapest route to get a IQ150 system?

[Paul Spinnler]

Guys

What price levels do you see for your trade ins?

How much do you pay to upgrade if trading in IQ1 80, IQ3 100 etc.?

Just want to see what the max discount is they give nowadays with their trade in programme.

Best
Paul

 

[GrahamWelland]

Those of us given options are asked not to share ... sorry but that’s just how it is. I realize that this contributes to your anger and disappointment but that’s how it is.

Btw, that’s between dealers, not Phase One. As a long time Phase One client using multiple dealers, I respect that because some offer better direct/indirect deals and don’t want to share that info.

For comparison, buy a Mclaren or Ferrari ... nobody smart pays retail.

 

[Abstraction]

I guess that depends on where your loyalties lie: with the dealers or with your fellow photographers. The dealers try to maintain their market advantage in any way they can. That doesn't mean you have to play their game, but the choice is yours. Just a matter of who you care about.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Those of us given options are asked not to share ... sorry but that’s just how it is. I realize that this contributes to your anger and disappointment but that’s how it is.

Btw, that’s between dealers, not Phase One. As a long time Phase One client using multiple dealers, I respect that because some offer better direct/indirect deals and don’t want to share that info.

For comparison, buy a Mclaren or Ferrari ... nobody smart pays retail.

That is silly. I can easily drop emails to a dozen dealers and triangulate. Can also enlist friends and work under aliases.

If anyone would send me PMs that would be highly appreciated. The dealer with the best price gets the deal simple as that.

No anger at all. Find this intransprency game ridiculous and to me that is just dishonest business practice.

 

[Vivek]

May be the secret deals involve differently specd gear? “Outlet prices”.

 

[tcdeveau]

Keep in mind too that P1 dealers can also get creative and help massage the trade-in situation beyond the “official” upgrade paths on an individual basis

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Ill just bribe the intern at my local shop to let me do a screenshot of the trade in price list. Then ill post it.

Dobt be mistaken. P1 is just marketing and dealers just want to make incremental sales. Like car dealers or mortgage brokers. Would be good to create some pricing tension. They are also PE owned meaning all that value investment and infinity platform talk is just bs. They will make a new back for 40k in two years and then you can only upgrade for a measly trade in value. Trichromatic?

Just marketing bs so to bridge that year where no new sensors came along in 17. now all of a sudden it is not needed anymore. Get it?

And the dealers posting these salesy bs marketing pages? Cmon.

And all are money driven. I reputable dealer told me that people regularly fly in to get cameras. This way he takes away business from other local dealers. You just need to be locally on the ground.

All that counts are that 5-10k you add to his sales line.

[SUP][/SUP]

 

[tcdeveau]

Of course not all dealers are created equal and not everyone has the same experience but FWIW The P1 dealers I’ve worked with that are represented here on the forum have given me the impression that I mean more to them than a line item in their sales. They’ve helped me out and I haven’t even purchased a P1 back from them, and I don’t think I’m alone in that regard.

 

[Pradeep]

Yes, gradually it is already happening. There are a few of the usual suspects still on the merry go round who will jump in without even bothering to do side by side tests, but it is clear to me that this time things are different.

Yes, there will always be people who can do this, for them the money is completely irrelevant, $10-20K difference in price makes absolutely no difference to their daily lives. However, even the super rich did not get there by being stupid. At some point one has to pause a moment and think - am I being taken for a ride here or what? Once that starts to happen, the whole edifice comes crumbling down.

Those of us given options are asked not to share ... sorry but that’s just how it is. I realize that this contributes to your anger and disappointment but that’s how it is.

Btw, that’s between dealers, not Phase One. As a long time Phase One client using multiple dealers, I respect that because some offer better direct/indirect deals and don’t want to share that info.

For comparison, buy a Mclaren or Ferrari ... nobody smart pays retail.

See, that's one other thing that has bothered me right from the start. Why the secrecy? In 2018, one should not have to play cloak and dagger to find out how much something costs. And the real question nobody asks is why the need for exclusive and limited dealership? What does the dealer offer really that is free? In my case it was pretty much nothing. Everything that I wanted to know about the system needed extra fees - like 'come and attend our learning seminars - of course you have to pay for them'. Every time I had to have something shipped to me I had to pay for it unless it was for repairs within warranty. My 35mm dealer actually ships everything to me free, by overnight delivery! No extra charges at all.

The upgrade path is even more secretive. It seems like if I am a potential for more purchases in the future, or if I've bought a lot of stuff in the past I would get a better deal, else not. This 'old boys' club' mentality is what puts people like me off.

No, not a Ferrari, but I'm on my third Tesla now. I can tell you, nothing beats this experience. Took all of 5 minutes to do the paperwork and drive out of the dealership with my car. Everything else was done via email or online. Prices are posted online for everyone to see and are EXACTLY the same for every buyer, whether you've bought before or not. The only discount you get is if you refer somebody and they buy a Tesla - but this too is openly posted on the website.

That is how business should be done.

 

[Pradeep]

Of course not all dealers are created equal and not everyone has the same experience but FWIW The P1 dealers I’ve worked with that are represented here on the forum have given me the impression that I mean more to them than a line item in their sales. They’ve helped me out and I haven’t even purchased a P1 back from them, and I don’t think I’m alone in that regard.

I am not denying that a dealer can be and often is a good human being, helpful when you need information. Dealers cannot drop the price of a camera beyond a minimum set by the manufacturer, this applies to most major companies. They also need to make a living from what they do and by necessity have to be nice to their customers, Phase is thus no exception. That does not change the fact that the model that Phase One employs is one of exclusion and secrecy, perhaps it serves to maintain an aura of mystery and mystique for the uninitiated. But what it does is it creates a barrier to access and makes it harder to compare. If the price was the same everywhere and was transparent to the buyer then the real value of the dealer is in the service - which is where they really need to put in the work. That is when you can separate the good from the average, not in how much of a discount one dealership was offering.

Times indeed are a changin'. I can already print my A7r3 images happily at a size I want on my large Epson. I doubt very much they will look very different coming from a 150Mpx back. Then you have techniques to achieve 'super-resolution' both within camera and in post these days. So the advantage of a $50K camera cannot just be in image size. Which is why the marketing needs to change. But again, this is just my opinion. I am sure others will disagree. And that's why we are all here - because we can agree to disagree, without rancor.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Exactly my thoughts. I want transparency, fair pricing, modern distribution a la RED / TESLA and cut out the fat layer of dealers to get better prices. If I were the CEO I would slowly setup my own shops like Leica did and oust the dealers over time to keep more margin and open up the prices to drive customer base expansion.

In the 7 years I owned my back I never needed the support of a dealer. Not once. And even if I needed it, not sure that 1-2 hours of time are worth 10k USD.

Believe me, I can afford multiple systems at full retail if I wanted to; I just dont like the secrecy, the fat dealership model and the general feeling of being fed marketing BS all the time for incremental updates.

The trichromatic BS was the best marketing hype I have seen in a long time and dealers were woking overdrive to frame it as the next coming.

Now all of a sudden it is not necessary anymore. It just shows that the real driver are the sensors which they buy and the rest is just a shiny layer of sugar candy marketing.

They had a good idea to expand into institutional clients which increased top line by a third, but I cannot believe that the high prices can be sustained with this antiquated distribution model and people having been burnt in the past with their investments.

Yes, there will always be people who can do this, for them the money is completely irrelevant, $10-20K difference in price makes absolutely no difference to their daily lives. However, even the super rich did not get there by being stupid. At some point one has to pause a moment and think - am I being taken for a ride here or what? Once that starts to happen, the whole edifice comes crumbling down.



See, that's one other thing that has bothered me right from the start. Why the secrecy? In 2018, one should not have to play cloak and dagger to find out how much something costs. And the real question nobody asks is why the need for exclusive and limited dealership? What does the dealer offer really that is free? In my case it was pretty much nothing. Everything that I wanted to know about the system needed extra fees - like 'come and attend our learning seminars - of course you have to pay for them'. Every time I had to have something shipped to me I had to pay for it unless it was for repairs within warranty. My 35mm dealer actually ships everything to me free, by overnight delivery! No extra charges at all.

The upgrade path is even more secretive. It seems like if I am a potential for more purchases in the future, or if I've bought a lot of stuff in the past I would get a better deal, else not. This 'old boys' club' mentality is what puts people like me off.

No, not a Ferrari, but I'm on my third Tesla now. I can tell you, nothing beats this experience. Took all of 5 minutes to do the paperwork and drive out of the dealership with my car. Everything else was done via email or online. Prices are posted online for everyone to see and are EXACTLY the same for every buyer, whether you've bought before or not. The only discount you get is if you refer somebody and they buy a Tesla - but this too is openly posted on the website.

That is how business should be done.

 

[MrSmith]

When you go and pick up your camera/back purchase do you get prosecco or decent champagne? Asking for a friend.
Thanks.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Jack,

I agree on most, just a few comments.

First, I don't think we get sensor updates each 18-th month. That was a while ago, sensor development used to be a three year project, but they often had two teams working in paralell with some offset.

The 50 MP 44x33 mm sensor has been around for 4-5 years. Sony has redesigned the 44x33 mm sensor, and the 54x41 mm sensor just reuses the pixel design. I would expect no more significant updates for 4-5 years.

The other factor is that with Hassy and GFX now selling at around 6k$US, 44x33 MFD has been established at a lower price point. It could be said, a reasonable price point. The GFX and the X1D are EVF systems, with advantages and disadvantages.


The GFX and the X1D are designed around the 44x33 mm sensor and in all probability with 100 MP taken into account.

So, in a year, we will see 100MP on 44x33 with lenses designed for that sensor and that format. Probably at under 10k$US. How will that affect the competitive landscape, we don't know.

Both the GFX and X1D are complete cameras, not digital backs. To some extent, they may be usable on technical cameras.

It may make sense for Phase One to focus on high end, it is really thing between them and their customers. I don't think Phase One wants to be a high volume producer and increasing volumn needs investments in production capability.

The new sensors are BSI (Back Side Illuminated), that may work better with near symmetric ultrawides on technical cameras.

I would also say that making sensors smaller is mostly beneficial. If you can get 100 MP from a 44x33 mm sensor on an ultra wide, it will offer more shift capability than a 100 MP 54x41 mm sensor. So if you are happy with 100 MP, it may be a smart move to use the smaller sensor. It will offer more lateral movement and needs less stopping down. The downside wit 44x36 mm is that you may need a wider lens.

Best regards
Erik

Now for a comment on the thread

Facts:

1) Sensors are going to continue to get more dense; and likely with a major "upgrade" about every 18 months.
2) Internal processing enhancements will advance at a similar rate, and hence output speeds will remain at the very least, stable.
3) Prices for the new stuff will be higher.
4) Many won't be able to afford -- or justify -- the expense.
5) Some have the luxury of money being no object.
6) Some in group 4 will always be jealous of those in group 5; and they show this by expressing non-need and furthermore disdain for the new product.
7) Others in group 4 really do not need the newest best to make their art.
8) It has always been this way.
9) GREAT images are made by the artist not the gear; great art is still being made on film and great images are still being made with 22MP DB's and great images are being made with cell phones too. Again, the equipment does not make the image, the photographer does...

Hence, if you want and can afford this new bad boy, I say GOOD ON YOU! Go get it, and share your art -- I personally can't wait to see it! Will we see a difference in online images? Yup -- especially when all the 100% crops are shown :lol: But that said, I still want to see art from your 22MP back if that's what you use. Or film if that's what you use. Cell phones, not so much, unless it's really good :ROTFL:

My .02 only -- carry on

PS: And for the record, if I could justify the funds I'd really like to have an IQ3 60 or 80, probably on a tech cam with three lenses. But alas, it's out of my practicality zone. And probably always will be...

 

[Abstraction]

When you go and pick up your camera/back purchase do you get prosecco or decent champagne? Asking for a friend.
Thanks.

No, but you get a small pillow you can bite on.

 

[narikin]

Like many here I'm already locked into the upgrade path, so it's just over $20k to go from 100>150, trade in. My order is in, but I suspect it will be the last time.

If I had no trade in, or one that's near worthless, I'd definitely wait for the 100mp Fuji/Hassy and go down that path. Totally agree with many here - that's by far the better route.

I'll be getting one of those myself when it's released, and maybe the new GFX-50R, which looks a great walkabout camera. (+ I love rangefinders!).

 

[stngoldberg]

My 2 cents again.
The importance of a good dealer cannot be overstated. Two weeks ago, Chris Snipes from CI spent over an hour on the phone with me solving a problem that I was having with Capture One. The solution had nothing to do with the wonderful camera he sold me, and he worked with me on a Saturday morning while I’m sure that he wished he could be with his family.
Over the past two years, I have reached out to Chris probably six times by email or text; he responded each time within a few minutes.
The point that I am attempting to make is...I NEED A GOOD DEALER AND I AM WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.
I am willing to help Capture Integration profit because I need them to stay in business!
On the other hand, I am really upset with Phase One because they eliminated my Hasselblad hybrid set up on their new 150mpx back; and in doing so, they eliminated me as a customer going forward.
Stanley

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Admin deleted -- not helpful

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well thats the mind trick. You would get 15-20k for your back when selling it and you are paying 20k, so effectively 35-40k. You just think it is a good deal because the nominal discount on paper is high. They are still making a lot of off of you, no?

Like many here I'm already locked into the upgrade path, so it's just over $20k to go from 100>150, trade in. My order is in, but I suspect it will be the last time.

If I had no trade in, or one that's near worthless, I'd definitely wait for the 100mp Fuji/Hassy and go down that path. Totally agree with many here - that's by far the better route.

I'll be getting one of those myself when it's released, and maybe the new GFX-50R, which looks a great walkabout camera. (+ I love rangefinders!).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Admin deleted -- not helpful or relevant.

 

[MrSmith]

A good dealer is very handy, there are 3 ‘pro’ dealers I have accounts with here in london and they have all gone the extra mile in one way or another. Funny thing is the level of service hasn’t been dictated by margins or spend, if you are a customer you get treated the same.

The only thing that has changed over the years is they now stock Sony and other 35mm gear (after being exclusively MF/LF) and a lot more moving image equipment. I guess the market is smaller here so they have to stock a broader range of equipment such as printing/computer and lighting, a MFD only boutique isn’t sustainable in the UK.