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Thread: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey Peter

    You say no Tele but what about the 200 2.0 and the 400 2.8 or the 200-400 4.0 or the 500 4.0. Super expensive but surely these lenses are no slouches and reports compare the 200 2.0 to the wonderful Leica 180 2.0 which I owned and loved. I can't afford any of these beasties but I don't think they are at all anything but A class lenses. JMHO

    Woody
    Woody - I have no doubt at all that Leica make wonderful glass - as you well know I pretty much own or have owned everythign they have ever made. So yeah - that tele stuff you allude to is wonderful. However - I dont think that the S2 is a tele camera...and in the same way it wont be able to match Schneider or Rodenstock in wides....

    My rumination is about the handholdability issue of teh S2. I have no doubt that it will be easier than current MF systems - but still there ar ea LOT of megapixels there. It isntlike I dont have steady hands still I can still shoot a rabbit or a fox @ 200 meters with my Blaser.

    I think ljl makes the point that the S2 is aimed at the fashion/portrait/wedding /studio shooter - perhaps a more elegant solution that the legacy MF glass systems we are using now.

    what is NOT in doubt is that it will be the sexiest most beautiful kit around!

    I am a gear slut as Guys says - a lot of teh stuff I buy is because I liek teh engineering and teh look and fondle factor - I am not and hav enever been ashamed of saying that.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    too many spokes in that porsche wheel. all you need is one:
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:27.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Let's see...
    AF servo S/C/M
    Eposure mode (A and M)
    Flash compensation
    Compensation
    Metering type
    Exposure lock
    Bracketing on/off
    ISO setting
    Output Quality/Size/Type
    DOF preview
    AF on

    Review
    Lock image
    Delete image
    zoom & pan image

    That'a about 15-18 buttons right there depending on how you count.

    Changing metering between spot and matrix is crucial to understanding the dynamic range of a scene, To see where the highlights are WRT exposure. I use it all the time.

    The lock button is a must, I almost couldn't live without it. The way I use it is as soon as I review images I lock the good ones, then every now and then do a delete all, which keeps the locked ones. This means I can tag keepers with one button press as soon as I take the viewfinder from my eye. If I had to use two buttons to lock an image then that would break the flow, making it cumbersome. If I had to assign one out of four soft buttons to "Lock Image" then what function would I lose as a tradeoff?

    There are several buttons on the Nikons that are programmable or context-sensitive.

    We all have our ways. If you judge the world around you by using yourself as reference then everyone else is an idiot. A discussion around product design cannot be based on your own needs and preferences only.

    In the end, the reason Nikon and Canon designs are good is that they are proven over time, with tens of thousands of working pros. You might not like them, but you'd be in a minority. Leica S2 is at this point as far as we know between design study and production, but not even version one of a shpping product.
    Now take a woman's sized hand and try to change some of these buttons....Most of the buttons on the D700 I can't change without pulling the camera away from my eye.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Now take a woman's sized hand and try to change some of these buttons....Most of the buttons on the D700 I can't change without pulling the camera away from my eye.
    Being a guy and having rather large hands - I also have to take my D3 from the eye to change anything. Simply not possible without looking on these 100es buttons to find the right one.

    Canon comes much closer to the concept of aligning useful and reachable buttons which can be operated also in blind way

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Suffice it to say that your statement that "Nikon and Canon designs are good" is also a personal statement. I, and at least some others here, don't agree with that.
    Not really. It's not me saying they are good designs, it's the pro market saying so. Nikon/Canon cameras outsell the rest of the pro market by a large margin. OTOH, your statement that you don't agree is indeed a personal statement.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

    Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won!
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

    Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won!
    I am pretty sure the most important reason why Nikon and Canon Pro are sold is, because agencies are simply buying them in huge numbers and do not even think about asking the Pro's who have to work with that equipment if they like it or not.

    Buying (or leasing) in large numbers is simply related on the best price at reasonable IQ. But be honest, what IQ do these agencies really need??? Even for printing double pages in nice glossy magazines these cameras all outperform what is needed

    This is NOT the market the S2 or any other MF solution is aiming at!

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Let me see if I am understanding this rather strange discussion or not. Are some of you guys seriously dismissing (or reveling) in an as yet unreleased camera/system because of the number, placement and style of control buttons??? Folks, get real. Do the lack or abundance of control buttons really make that much difference if the camera is able to be operated by the user after they gain familiarity with it?

    I do understand personal preferences, but they do not make one design "better" or "worse" than another.....to the opposing individual maybe, but from a functional standpoint, they really do not. Sure, there is the ongoing beef about a lack of an easy to use MLU button on the Canon cameras (notably by complaints by Michael Reichmann in all of his reviews), but has that feature ever prevented folks from getting the shots and using the camera? Hardly.

    I happen to presently shoot Canon, after shooting Nikon for 25 years or more. I also shot Minolta, Leica, Hasselblad, Exakta and others. Each had its own design and quirks for use. They all work quite well, and after using any of them for a bit of time, the placement and number of controls became second nature. Some things may be easier to use for some, but all the needed features were there and accessible to get the job done. Personally, I like uncluttered, but I also like practical functionality for the way I use things. My M8 is not a speed demon, nor does it have ready access to control features, except through the menu system, while my Canons have what some describe as obscure button combinations and stuff in order to change things. They both work. Neither is the epitome of design for utility, if there is such a thing. Use either for more than a few days, and everything is pretty easy to figure out and make it do what you need it to do. There is not "perfect camera", nor "perfect design" for use. All are design compromises or plans to accommodate the builder's objectives. In the case of Canon and Nikon, some things are vestigial carryovers, others are designed by committee to some extent. In the case of Leica, there is a drive toward sleekness and apparent simplicity or lack of clutter, but maybe at the expense of some greater utility by some users. Everything is that way....cars, steering wheels, radios, cell phones, etc. What is the big deal? We each have our personal preferences, but that surely does not make one design or function "better" or "worse" than another....just different.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    I have my 5D in my hand. It certainly doesn't have a huge amount of controls. With that in mind I want to ask...

    How do I have direct control over both shutter and aperture at the same time? This is such a basic concept that none but the most amatuer and basic SLR's leave this to only one wheel. Or if using aperture or shutter priority, how do I apply exposure compensation? The idea that a pro photographer would have to press a button then turn the wheel to do either of the things mentioned is shocking when even the mid range SLR's provide it as a given.

    You can use a 4 button system on a back. I can see that. All you need is a menu and playback system. To expect those 4 buttons to also give you one button access to ISO/Shooting mode/exposure compensation/exposure lock/AF point selection - all things that are a one button or dial away on my simple 5D, that's giving a MF SLR less functionality than a Drebel. Who thought that was a good idea?

    I can understand the want for simplicity. Losing the most basic of functionality to more than one button press away relegates this to a slow working camera. A studio camera. Certainly not a DSLR. If you can't change aperture and shutter speed at the same time or apply exposure compensation without hitting a button first then the idea that Leica is doing something new and different is a joke. It won't even have the ease of use of a D30, the first of the DSLR's.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    In shooting mode, the S2 has aperture on the wheel, and there is a dedicated shutter speed wheel on top. Applying exposure compensation can not be done without pushing a button on any DSLR I know of, unless I am missing something? The D3x has it under the right index finger, the +/- button. The 1Ds3 is the same. So I am not sure which camera you are referring to. The S2 has the same level of indirection for these controls as the top DSLRs.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Canon comes much closer to the concept of aligning useful and reachable buttons which can be operated also in blind way
    I think this is very subjetive. I feel the opposite way and also have owned and used both

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Carsten,

    With the H3 you have exposure compensation on the rear wheel even when
    shooting in Aperture Priority Mode. With my Nikon F5 i achieve the same by switching to manual, read the exposure in the viewfinder and compensate in 1/3 meter steps with the exposure wheel. So personally I don't use the exposure compensation dial at all on my Nikon.
    Anyway, honestly I don't care at all about what the S2 provides or doesn't provide, i made my investment last year.

    Regards,
    Ralf

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Might as well jump into this mess. Slow morning. 1Ds2 - simply 1/2 tap shutter button, then can simply rotate wheel with shutter finger to change EV comp. Eye stays on VF. Trigger finger maybe slides 0.5".

    The ideal camera would have everything essential one, eye-on-VF, button-touch away. That said, such an ideal, give the 1001 features we all seem to want on a camera (or at least Marketing seems to think we want), has yet to exist. Designers make compromises for history ("oh no, they changed the position of the XYZ button that they've had since the F3... horrors, where's my keyboard.."), for a test photogs feedback - or for simple looks (the most idiotic).

    It's a fact of life that we have to work around thru actual use.

    On the S2, I do share some of Peter's handling concerns about camera mass vs pixel density vs lens mass.

    Lets also be honest here, like the Phase series backs (which Leica clearly copied), no one puts 4 simple multi-mode buttons on the back of a camera (or Leaf a stylus system) to enable fast, "grab that Pulitzer" shooting.

    All I can say is after all these debates before the sucker is even released, I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica). That assumes it actually is released of course. Or is released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

    And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses.

    And yes, they're 'Leica lenses", but having Nth percentile glass will only compensate for so many other sins given the superb units already in the market from Mamiya, Hassy, Rollei, et al within a known snack-bracket and on well-established bodies, broad market availability and with well-established (and reasonably quick) support structures.

    There will come a point where wringing that last degree of uber-fine-detail resolution out of a scene will simply not be noticed in commercial prints using similar sensors (all of which lack AA filters and all of which are from the same 3-4 vendors). At that juncture, any resolution above that 'I get paid' point is simply bragging rights. That said, Allah knows, a lot of folks do pay a lot for those rights.

    Shuttered-lenses aside, will a Phase 30-(or it's upcoming) 40MP body+ say a 150/2.8 D (or Hassy/Leaf equivalent), which are getting cheaper by the week, produce that worse a shoot than an (as yet released) S2 + 180/3.5? If so (or if lens shutters are desired), just how much of a premium in terms of $$, support issues, Beta-testing will you willingly pay?

    Also, if moving into (or upwards within) MF land, how long are you willing to wait to acquire a STABLE S2 kit+service structure, price aside, as values keep dropping on existing systems? Systems that could be earning you $$/Euros today? Say if you move next week with a Hassy/Phamiya/Leaf kit will you then be willing to dump that system say in 6-12 mos for $0.66 on the dollar to acquire for +/- 2x that sales cash, an S2? Or would a fraction of that cash outflow be better spent acquiring the next level in lighting or computing to lower your effort spent for $$ collected or for better studio rental?

    I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.



    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    In shooting mode, the S2 has aperture on the wheel, and there is a dedicated shutter speed wheel on top. Applying exposure compensation can not be done without pushing a button on any DSLR I know of, unless I am missing something? The D3x has it under the right index finger, the +/- button. The 1Ds3 is the same. So I am not sure which camera you are referring to. The S2 has the same level of indirection for these controls as the top DSLRs.
    Last edited by robmac; 19th May 2009 at 06:02.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    A lot of the cameras user interface seems to be determined by marketing, not by engineering or actual photographers (God forbid). Thats why Canon has a direct print button and didn't (until recently) have a quick way to lock/unlock the mirror. Bells and whistles only serve to make operation of the camera less fluid. I believe the single most significant improvement to the modern camera would be a thoughtful redesign of its user interface.
    Last edited by Paul_Kerfoot; 19th May 2009 at 05:33.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Rob,

    "I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica).

    That assumes it actually is released of course - or released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

    And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses."

    Two things: if the S2 is nothing more than an MF sensor + a shutter + lenses, why all the hysteria over it? And, is it clear that there's a relationship between cyber-land hysteria and actual sales? There are certainly of few poeple posting incessantly about the S2 (not you, Rob) who will never buy one unless it sells for under $15,00 with a lens.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.
    I don't think they're talking that much - it's us that's doing all the talking

    Anyway - if the S2 has to survive simply on inroads to existing MF users it doesn't stand a chance.

    As for the interface, it seems to me that it could turn out to be anything from a stroke of genius to a complete lemon as far as what we can now see.

    This argument would seem to be between the half full brigade and the half empty brigade - still good fun though.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Good point Jono - I would give the edge to we chatterboxes re: the S2. Lets just say the quicker they get it out the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I don't think they're talking that much - it's us that's doing all the talking

    Anyway - if the S2 has to survive simply on inroads to existing MF users it doesn't stand a chance.

    As for the interface, it seems to me that it could turn out to be anything from a stroke of genius to a complete lemon as far as what we can now see.

    This argument would seem to be between the half full brigade and the half empty brigade - still good fun though.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Might as well jump into this mess. Slow morning. 1Ds2 - simply 1/2 tap shutter button, then can simply rotate wheel with shutter finger to change EV comp. Eye stays on VF. Trigger finger maybe slides 0.5".

    The ideal camera would have everything essential one, eye-on-VF, button-touch away. That said, such an ideal, give the 1001 features we all seem to want on a camera (or at least Marketing seems to think we want), has yet to exist. Designers make compromises for history ("oh no, they changed the position of the XYZ button that they've had since the F3... horrors, where's my keyboard.."), for a test photogs feedback - or for simple looks (the most idiotic).

    It's a fact of life that we have to work around thru actual use.

    On the S2, I do share some of Peter's handling concerns about camera mass vs pixel density vs lens mass.

    Lets also be honest here, like the Phase series backs (which Leica clearly copied), no one puts 4 simple multi-mode buttons on the back of a camera (or Leaf a stylus system) to enable fast, "grab that Pulitzer" shooting.

    All I can say is after all these debates before the sucker is even released, I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica). That assumes it actually is released of course. Or is released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

    And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses.

    And yes, they're 'Leica lenses", but having Nth percentile glass will only compensate for so many other sins given the superb units already in the market from Mamiya, Hassy, Rollei, et al within a known snack-bracket and on well-established bodies, broad market availability and with well-established (and reasonably quick) support structures.

    There will come a point where wringing that last degree of uber-fine-detail resolution out of a scene will simply not be noticed in commercial prints using similar sensors (all of which lack AA filters and all of which are from the same 3-4 vendors). At that juncture, any resolution above that 'I get paid' point is simply bragging rights. That said, Allah knows, a lot of folks do pay a lot for those rights.

    Shuttered-lenses aside, will a Phase 30-(or it's upcoming) 40MP body+ say a 150/2.8 D (or Hassy/Leaf equivalent), which are getting cheaper by the week, produce that worse a shoot than an (as yet released) S2 + 180/3.5? If so (or if lens shutters are desired), just how much of a premium in terms of $$, support issues, Beta-testing will you willingly pay?

    Also, if moving into (or upwards within) MF land, how long are you willing to wait to acquire a STABLE S2 kit+service structure, price aside, as values keep dropping on existing systems? Systems that could be earning you $$/Euros today? Say if you move next week with a Hassy/Phamiya/Leaf kit will you then be willing to dump that system say in 6-12 mos for $0.66 on the dollar to acquire for +/- 2x that sales cash, an S2? Or would a fraction of that cash outflow be better spent acquiring the next level in lighting or computing to lower your effort spent for $$ collected or for better studio rental?

    I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.
    rob

    I think the issue of focal plane vs leaf shutter from a practical standpoint has to do with flash syncronization. Many studio shooters want to have flash sync well above the typical from a focal plane shutter e.g. 1/250 seconds. A leaf shutter allows flash sync at all shutter speeds up to the usual limit of 1/800 second or so. I don't do studio work (at this moment) so it is not a limit for me but it will be into the future.

    Other than that, focal plane shutters have some nice advantages which most of us are familiar with so I won't go into details here.

    I think it was a very wise decision for Leica to go with a system that will do both............something Mamiya/Phase have promised for several years now but have not delivered. We'll just have to wait and see if they will deliver into the future.

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Stephen,

    I think the hysteria is multi-fold:

    1. It is a move by Leica back into D-SLR land (finally)

    2. Leica-love + excitement by Leicaphiles. Understandable - to a degree. However, I will say too many people, especially in 'other' forums, pick up that enthusiasm, tuck it under their arms, and run with it well into the realm of fantasy, wishful thinking and "what drugs are you on?" land.

    3. People who like to pick on #2 and know JUST what big red button (no pun intended) to push.

    4. The very interesting dynamic of Leica entering a new market with an uber-system at what will probably be uber-prices while the rest of the established MF market has morphed to the 'brick off a roof' DSLR pricing curve -- and in the midst of a global recession.

    5. Leica users, a bit more sane, who have been treading water for a LONG time waiting for an R10 and are now:

    a) pissed off that the R10, for now, is the S2 and the iffy success of the latter will determine the very existence of the former.

    b) wondering if it's time just to stop treading and succumb to the depths of ____.

    6. Bored people with keyboards.

    I do agree that the sweet spot of say $15,000 w/glass would probably better ensure the unit's success (and thus the advent of an R10) as many folks would think it worth the risk to step into that pool. That said, I wouldn't bet my 1/2 finished cup of cooling coffee on that happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Rob,

    "I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica).

    That assumes it actually is released of course - or released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

    And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses."

    Two things: if the S2 is nothing more than an MF sensor + a shutter + lenses, why all the hysteria over it? And, is it clear that there's a relationship between cyber-land hysteria and actual sales? There are certainly of few poeple posting incessantly about the S2 (not you, Rob) who will never buy one unless it sells for under $15,00 with a lens.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Woody - quite right. The option of Leaf or FP shutter was a brilliant move. That said, as a 'pro' for teh system, it needs to be folded into the risk/rewards profile of the whole enchilada as it were.

    It's also an advantage that can be stroked-thru on the whiteboard the moment Mamiya or Hassy, etc release AF or even auto-metering manual focus (but chipped) leaf lenses. The CS vs FP option from Leica may be just the kick say Mamiya needs to get it into gear. What happens to that cool advantage when Mamiya releases say a $3000 CS version of the 150 D (to pick one)? Hell, they (or Hassy) could up the premium nicely and still make it look like a bargain (with no systems swap needed) vs what the equivalent Leica glass will probably price at. Using a CS lens on a FP body would simply be the matter of a new firmware release.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

    Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won!
    Yeez. Grow up.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Carsten, on both canon and nikon cameras, all but the very cheapest, in manual mode one wheel does shutter other does aperture. In Aperture/Shutter priority or program mode one wheel changes the aperture/shutter the other applies exposure compensation. The +/- button is for zooming into the photo. Unless the Leica has a system whereby you can do either of the above it has the same DSLR functionality of a Drebel. Hardly a claim of useability or a paradigm shift in MF camera design.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Yeez. Grow up.
    "Grow up"??? It was a joke! Leica put only a few buttons on the camera, and there is nothing either of us can do about it. It was also the second time I was trying to stop having this discussion. There is no knowledge that one way or the other is more popular, regardless of which cameras are more popular. There is no sense in trying to figure out who is right, because there is no "right". Do you feel that it is more grown up to keep discussing this with no end in sight, and no way to resolve it properly?

    Ben, I didn't mean the + and - loupe buttons, but the single +/- button on top of the cameras. Anyway, I thought you were talking about manual mode, so we were talking past each other.
    Last edited by carstenw; 19th May 2009 at 08:42.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    I think we need a subset thread inside this forum thread. Low blood pressure tips and tricks.

    1st TIP: IGNORE THE HYPE
    2nd TIP: You don't have enough money to even think about it. That goes for all of us. LOL
    3rd TIP: I finally could give a rats *** until it is out.
    4th TIP: We truly are debating about air.
    Seriously I have read so much BS marketing on this thing that it truly is sickening and I can pretty much punch holes in every argument but alas I am just not going to think about it any more and keep my nose out of it. I truly hate half truths and missing data that it truly drives me crazy but I am going the low blood pressure route from now on.

    Podium off.
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Yes Guy, we are all waiting patiently for your thread with the S2 test shots - we know it will happen.


    Until then, I am not listening to a word of hype!

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Well if Leica was smart they would send me one. And shut my mouth. LOL

    This thing has a LONG way to go before I put any faith in it. I like it but I need to see 95-100 percent on all counts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Carsten thats very well put,the alpha is a joy the formula one ,clinical,professional.This is a british versionyes its square
    Last edited by nei1; 24th October 2009 at 03:01.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    That car is really, really small. Or, at least the image is. I can't quite see what it is?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I just updated my blog with photos and measurements from yesterday when I had an S2 mockup in our store.

    David Farkas Photography Blog

    I have side-by-side photos of the S2 and Nikon D3x, S2 and Mamiya 645 AFD, as well as some comparisons of S lenses to Hasselblad HC lenses.

    I hope this settles some of the confusion on the size of the S2.

    David
    Dear David
    Nice work. The S2 looks interesting ergonomically, and no one yet (I don't think) has pointed out how Leica got a SMALLER camera with virtually MF capability (the sensor has three times the MP and about the same area of some 645 backs, like H's from PO and Kodak)

    By NOT needing room for film cans or DB, not only is the body smaller (electronics wrapped like a SLR) but the prism finder is a LOT smaller. It will definitely have more of an SLR feel. But you HAVE one (at least Mock up) is that true? Also, I can see Leica offering sensor upgrades as needed rather than new backs.

    May not be a big deal for some, but I can tell you I often take the Alpa on the trail simply because it packs better. (BTW, with 12 stops and WA lenses, I haven't found any AF, AE etc. necessary.(" f8, don't be late" works for me

    SO, am I still near the top of your S2 list? I am actually, FINALLY considering selling some stuff.

    ....maybe

    Regards
    Victor

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Seriously I have read so much BS marketing on this thing that it truly is sickening and I can pretty much punch holes in every argument but alas I am just not going to think about it any more and keep my nose out of it. I truly hate half truths and missing data that it truly drives me crazy but I am going the low blood pressure route from now on.
    Oh ye of little faith...spend some phone time with Brother David from Dale Photo land and heed Brother John's "12 Steps" now up on the Sunset Bar, then you too will be ready for the coming of the S2!
    Roger
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Heard the sermon Roger, threw the money in the fountain that was enough for me. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    you know after reading this far into this
    I think we should start a thread and have people state how much they think this thing will cost and how much "they" are willing to pay for it.
    should be an interesting read to go with my morning coffee
    am

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    don't know if you need a new thread, but a lot of speculation, on what price SHOULD be. Based on Back prices,and remembering that you are getting camera and 'back', $20,000 rather than $15,000 seems like a more reasonable 'floor'.
    I don't think anyone would argue with a new Leica camera being $5,000. A 40MP bacK, $20,000 for SOTA would not be unreasonale, so my bet is

    $22,500.

    I would likely be willing to pay $25,000.

    Think about it; don't look at what people can afford but what it has in value; if Leica can maintain their lens quality and deliver 4x the DMR resolution and support high quality auto focus, it has got to be close to the 'value' of a 40MP Hasselblad in my mind.
    Where are those now?

    Victor

    PS ...and NO I am not independently wealthy; I am 66 years old and still work 14 hour days.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Victor your P65+ will depreciate soon enough to join everyone else's gear in "its worth peanuts land".

    but dont worry my friend - this moment will coincide with an announcement about their brand new P80+ back with improved LCD!! for a modest $20K changeover price it will be all yours! Also you will get a 'free' 5 terabyte portable hardrive so you can store teh 20 files it wil make.

    little barbs thrown at poor old Hasselblad are so much fun to read!

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    well, tell me where the hasselbad barbs are, I woudn't want to miss the fun.

    However, if yoiu are referring to my question, it is a real one. I think the Hassebad 39 are between $28k and $33k, so even at $25k the Leica would be high, but not out of line.

    Peter, take off the 'noir' coloured glasses, all is not gloom out there!

    best regards
    Victor

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Think we should start a pool. Closest number (body+kit lens) gets the S2 shell Dale had on display (someone must have some strings in Solms they could pull).

    One nice thing about looking in on the MF pool is that with every month you hold off they get cheaper and cheaper. While prices are currently adjusting in a step-wise manner to the realities of the new MF market vs old, they will eventual stabilize and then shift into (finally) a normal DSLR-esque style depreciation curve.

  37. #87
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Haasy 39 is 22k and your NUTS to even consider 25K for a S2 and I like you. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Think we should start a pool. Closest number (body+kit lens) gets the S2 shell Dale had on display (someone must have some strings in Solms they could pull).

    One nice thing about looking in on the MF pool is that with every month you hold off they get cheaper and cheaper. While prices are currently adjusting in a step-wise manner to the realities of the new MF market vs old, they will eventual stabilize and then shift into (finally) a normal DSLR-esque style depreciation curve.
    I am very sure that all the "entry level" MF offers will be below 10k$ for camera, back and lens finally. Give it another 6 - 12 months.

    Not fun for the economy, not fun the the MF vendors, but very good for the users. I would even not be surprised, if one or the other vendor will disappear over this time - Leaf? Sinar, etc?

    You may be right, at the end of this war a serious MF system will be in the range of a high end Pro DSLR.

    I think I can wait

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    ptomsu,

    I think six to 12 months is too short a time frame. After all, we want prices to drop, but not so fast that Leica goes out of business. (And we don't want prices to fall to a few hundred dollars, or Leica will have trouble keeping up with demand.)

    My advise is to wait six to 12 years. Then, even if prices haven't fallen to the level you desire, you'll at least be able to buy a good used camera.

    Steve

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    re Hasselblad barbs : You just have to be around a while - they resurface all the time..-

    Re the world - it IS a beautiful place ..but things are grim..

    Someone wrote that people go through 5 stages of grieving :
    1. denial ( lots of people still there )
    2. anger ( what i felt when haselblad did their first price reduction)
    3. negotiation ( what people are doing about everything to do with buying now)
    4. depression ( when people se that teh world REALLY HAS CHANGED )
    5. Acceptance ( when companies accept the fact that tehy are better off making quality that lasts and stop with the BS)

    OR

    maybe I am too close to the meltdown and what is going on..-


    On the S2 - how does one price 'quality'..I know I will end up paying whatever...IF the system works.
    Last edited by PeterA; 20th May 2009 at 05:45.

  41. #91
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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Haasy 39 is 22k and your NUTS to even consider 25K for a S2 and I like you. LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    On the S2 - how does one price 'quality'..I know I will end up paying whatever...IF the system works.
    I doubt I'll be getting any of 'em. BUT if the system works . . then I'd certainly consider paying for the S2 - even if it's just for the size and the weather sealing. . . . . IF the system works.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    ptomsu.

    I think there will ALWAYS be a gap between MF and Hi-end SLRs. I just think that within the next year say, MFDB prices will stabilize at a normalized $$$ gap above such DSLRS.

    However at that juncture, both systems will follow a very similar depreciation curve in terms of % value lost with the passage of time -- and more importantly when new models come out. Guess what happens when the first back with a hi-res LCD and LV comes out?

    If Canikon make a S2esque move into > 35mm sensors, then that gap will narrow and prices will adjust downward for MF kits, then they will all hold hands as they toboggan down the same depreciation curve. Some folks just want > 24x36 at a reasonable MP count with no AA filter and decent lenses. For those that phew over Nikon/Canon lens performance (I'm one on many occasions), Nikon is getting better and they have to bear in mind that a very nice but not mind-blowing lens immediately 'gains' resolution when bolted to a modest MP-count sensor lacking an AA filter. Then you have (assuming they'd have the image circle) using CV, Leica, Contax, ZF, M645, Hassy F/C_ glass in stop down on said bodies.

    I do think the DSLR makers would love to start playing in the higher-price snack bracket where they could charge notably less than the exiting norm for say a Hassy 31MP but still get higher margins due to manufacturing economies, etc.

    Leica has a great idea, but it will be a) Leica and b) at Leica prices.

    There is also THE other shoe to drop - a discussion John Black and I chatted about off line.

    WHEN (not IF) Phamiya comes out with an unit that has Hassy-style integration, the value of existing Phamiya kits will take a 1x step-down adjustment, then ride the curve downward with the rest of the pack.

    Integration is a natural goal of the Phase+Mamiya linkage (they did it with that goal in mind - or at least to stop someone else from doing it).

    It makes life easier for both vendors, cuts on service/support time (fewer complaints of A not working with B), happier customers (no A blaming B who blames A) when something goes south, fewer instances of something going south (a natural by product of bolting two vendor's products together with miniscule tolerances needed), allows milking Nth degree performance from glass while keeping glass more affordable, etc. Hassy PO'd some folks when they pulled their move, but it makes sense.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th May 2009 at 07:35.

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    ptomsu,

    I think six to 12 months is too short a time frame. After all, we want prices to drop, but not so fast that Leica goes out of business. (And we don't want prices to fall to a few hundred dollars, or Leica will have trouble keeping up with demand.)

    My advise is to wait six to 12 years. Then, even if prices haven't fallen to the level you desire, you'll at least be able to buy a good used camera.

    Steve
    Well,

    by then I most probably will not need any camera anymore

    I live now and I want to do business now and I at least am not waiting such a timespan.

    But I can only reiterate - I think the most dramatic price erosions will happen in the next year.

    And BTW - I do not care which company will go bankrupt or whatever by this, I want a cheap and godd MF digital solution. All that counts for me

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    Re: Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    We must not forget that we are getting used to things, even to disadvantages or design-curiosities - both, Leica and Nikon-users.
    [...]

    but just look at the switch for the exposure method. In the R8 it was perfectly integrated underneath the time wheel - where is it on the F5 (or D3x)? At the side of the prism, who came up with this idea? Just because there was space left?

    I would love to hear how a Japanese feels about that, maybe it's the opposite?
    [...]
    The exposure meter mode? Its because of tradition.

    Early professional Nikons had a mechanical body and an interchangeble viewfinder with meter. The controls for the meter ended up on the viewfinder prism. Have a look at the Nikon F (Photomic finder), F2as and F2a.

    They've kept this tradition through the original F, F4, F5 to the current D3x.

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