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Thread: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

  1. #101
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    If you all go back to the posts around launch time (photokina), the pricing that came out is not that much different than everyone was speculating. If the new M lenses like the 21 and 24 lux are $6,000 each and are selling, what were you expecting on the pricing for the new batch of S lenses? How much are the good lenses for the technical cameras?

    I think everyone was wishing it was going to come in lower and kept talking it down but go back to your posts from 6 months ago and read what you were saying then.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Very simple 18k was the top for it and around 3500 for lenses. No one said it should be anymore. This is 50 k before you even pack your back. It's completely out of reach. I have 25k in a WHOLE system, this is twice the price and not remotely twice the system. A normal lens at 4600 dollars is the most absurd price on the planet

    Think about this is there a normal focal length lens on the market on ANY system that cost 4600. I can tell you not a chance in hell there is. That's basically 2 k overpriced right there.

    Let's remember a brand new P40+ with body and lens is 21K . A S2 with body and lens is close to almost 28k without a service warranty and no central shutter which is 1200 more I believe( still trying to figure that one out). That is a 7 k difference and in my neck of the woods 7 k buys me 2 or 3 lenses.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Alright lets get down to a 4 lens setup which almost everyone agree's maybe the final setup and let's add the premium service on lenses and bodies. This is scary


    S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package - $27,995

    Accessories:
    Multi Function Handgrip S - $1,295 (Jan 10)
    Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399



    Lenses:

    Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)

    APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)

    APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)

    Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

    Service Packages for Lenses:
    S-Lens Premium Service - $495
    S-Lens Platium Service - $995

    No let's go for the cheap S lens Premium service which is 500 per lens . So that is 2k added on.

    Geez how stupid of me it's only 58k

    Now just off the top of my little head here. I could buy a P40+ and 4 lenses plus a tech camera and 4 lenses than throw a Nikon D3x in here and a few lenses and still have change left over.

    Terry your a investment banker , how would i come into your office with 60k in my pocket and justify to you get 5 items instead of 15 items that may depreciate in no time or worse yet the company go singing a swan song
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Okay need espresso number 2.

    Just looking at that i could not even sandbag my 12 year old into believing the s2 is a deal, never mind my wife which surely would pull the damn 9mm trigger and laugh doing it
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    It'll look great on the deck of a superyacht, casually slung in the back of a Ferrari, or on the shoulder of the latest supermodel.

    For the more typical propsective buyer, the price tag is absurd.

    Still, if I date that supermodel (after my wife has killed me that is ) maybe I will change my mind.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Look Guy,
    I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.

    Just a nitpick...you put a grip in the mix - can't do that with Phase. Did you included the value added pricing in your Phase price? Are you using prices for new lenses or used lens prices for both Phase and technical? I know these are minor things but need to play apples to apples here.

    By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
    D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Look Guy,
    I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.
    Does it matter? the wrong price is the wrong price regardless. For me, its actually a relief. I can at least strike the S2 off any wish list I might have.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    My feeling is the S2 price is a factor of two, maybe three factors - layers in a cake if you will:

    1. The typical 'we are Leica' ego premium.
    We used to call it 'believing too many of their own press releases'. The price premium some think is HS, some just tolerate, some think is partially justified on the lenses and some think is the rightful price of admission into the church.

    2. They dragged their feet and got caught with their shorts down.
    They took too long to get a new 'SLR' to market and now it's bitten them on the *** - hard. They approved the design of, acquired the tooling, etc for and entered into (likely) multi-year supply agreements for components, glass. etc just as the MFDB started to follow the DSLR depreciation curve. On top of that there were likely cost over-runs, etc - normal project snafus.

    They have a nice camera (on paper anyway) - but it's priced like Solms forgot what year it was because they'll never see their target ROI (or any +ROI) if they don't throw the calendar away.

    3. I suspect they know they have a problem, a big one - hence the idiotic talking points. If you need to talk about your price, let alone with STUPID comments like 'a free copy of LR' on a $22K camera, you know you're ***-deep in alligators.

    That said, I think they're hoping that enough of the faithful will snap up enough units (low-serial numbers..;>) to give the project a financial pulse. This vs. under-cutting the body price and praying like hell enough people BEYOND the faithful make up the volume in bodies and lenses needed to avoid a disaster.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Okay take out the grip . For a body , lens and its premium service the S2 comes in at 34k . 28 for the body and 6 k for the lens

    Same package new Phase body , 80 lens, P40+ and 3 year warranty. I can call Dave today at CI and anyone on this forum can get that for 23k and that is actually to high I think. Hell let's even make it 25k it still is 9k off any mark.

    Yes we are talking the price down no question it should be what is a comparable value the s2 is not even remotely close to what already exist today in the market. 9k in overpricing is something no one can justify and represents a extra 2 to 4 lenses to someone. They flat out blew it here. If it was even close to the P40+ package i may go for it but not at these absurd premiums.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Look Guy,
    I am not defending it. What I am saying is that you have all been consistently "talking the prices down" to the levels you want it to be however just go back to what the initial talk on pricing was and it isn't so different.

    Just a nitpick...you put a grip in the mix - can't do that with Phase. Did you included the value added pricing in your Phase price? Are you using prices for new lenses or used lens prices for both Phase and technical? I know these are minor things but need to play apples to apples here.

    By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
    D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.
    FYI, I didn't pay $7,500 for my D3X ... and you CAN buy mint used lenses for Nikon, or Canon or Mamiya or Hasselblad ... which you can't with this S2 set up.

    This vaguely reminds me of when I priced out a Leaf Hy6, which to start with was a similiarly heart stoppingly expensive system (over 50K) ... but at least you could get by with some used Rollei lenses. Superb sytem no doubt, but priced out of the real world, and now look at where it's at

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    But you could also buy some used gear in there to offset the total costs and also that was back when the economy and business was booming. Different landscape completely today. The Sinar system is expensive but you also had options to lower costs , here there are no options. Today Sinar in our minds is in limbo at least that is the perception we all have and that is not good for them and any recovery coming. I do hope they hang on for sure. We can't afford to keep lowering our options.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    By the way....prices have gone up not down on lenses
    D3x $7500 plus 14-24 $1800 plus 24-70 $1800 plus 70-200 $2400 = $13,500.
    More than anything else, the pricing of the S2 has made (in my mind at least) the D3X way more attractive and something of a bargain. Will I miss drooling over all the details and subtle nuance that Leica glass will no doubt provide on the S2? Perhaps. But the package as Terry describes it sounds pretty darn good to me. Since I will probably never shoot fashion in a studio for a billboard, D3X resolution and IQ could take me a very long way for nearly half the price of the S2 body alone. Nikon has probably been cheering and popping champagne ever since the announcement of the S2 pricing was made.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    My feeling is the S2 price is a factor of two, maybe three factors - layers in a cake if you will:

    1. The typical 'we are Leica' ego premium.
    We used to call it 'believing too many of their own press releases'. The price premium some think is HS, some just tolerate, some think is partially justified on the lenses and some think is the rightful price of admission into the church.

    2. They dragged their feet and got caught with their shorts down.
    They took too long to get a new 'SLR' to market and now it's bitten them on the *** - hard. They approved the design of, acquired the tooling, etc for and entered into (likely) multi-year supply agreements for components, glass. etc just as the MFDB started to follow the DSLR depreciation curve. On top of that there were likely cost over-runs, etc - normal project snafus.

    They have a nice camera (on paper anyway) - but it's priced like Solms forgot what year it was because they'll never see their target ROI (or any +ROI) if they don't throw the calendar away.

    3. I suspect they know they have a problem, a big one - hence the idiotic talking points. If you need to talk about your price, let alone with STUPID comments like 'a free copy of LR' on a $22K camera, you know you're ***-deep in alligators.

    That said, I think they're hoping that enough of the faithful will snap up enough units (low-serial numbers..;>) to give the project a financial pulse. This vs. under-cutting the body price and praying like hell enough people BEYOND the faithful make up the volume in bodies and lenses needed to avoid a disaster.
    I think they'll sell the 1000 they projected.

    Once it's in the hands of some superstar shooter and people see the results it'll sell to an elite cross section of people , including some successful pros.

    The pricing simply makes it not for everyone ... or almost "not for ANYONE". Working shmoes will have something to dream about when they hit the big time ... or the lotto. The rest of us will just bitch about not being abe to afford one.

    I can't swing a H3D-II/60 so this is even more out there on the end of the stick forever beyond my reach ... unless the economy recovers and I can retire ... then sell off almost everything and go out using the a Leica ... which is how I started this whole trek in photography ... using a M camera and lenses that I most certainly could not afford but got anyway.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    This entire scenario will make a great business school teaching case at some point, regardless of the outcome. Personally, like Tim and others have mentioned, I sort of feel relieved to take the S2 system off my radar at this point. I am sure there are some sighs of relief (plus muffled or outright laughter) at Phase, Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and even Sony right now, knowing that Leica may have taken itself out of the competition. Will be interesting to see what they learn and bring to the market from all of this.

    As Marc comments, once (if) the S2 gets into the hands of some superstar shooter (still not sure who that may be), it may draw a few more wannabes to the fold, but the pricing is surely going to remain a question, even for those with the money. Let's see what the real output from a fully-tuned production camera looks like to see if the S2 will even be worth dreaming about. (Also, let's see just how many rental houses will carry this kit for folks to test out or use on those rare high-dollar assignments.) My bet is that the other companies mentioned are already getting there with new glass and maybe sensors, or will get there shortly and offer something for a lot more justifiable price compared to Leica. Even if the lenses turn out to be stellar, it is not clear that many (any) folks will be that blown away to make the plunge. As has been mentioned by a number of folks, a tech camera and back will hold its own for landscape and maybe even product shooting, and the high end 35mm DSLRs, plus Hassies are holding their own for studio/fashion shooting. Where does that really leave this overpriced S2? Right, in the backseat of that Ferrari, on the deck of the yacht, in a "collector case" and maybe in a few "superstar" studios, but mostly NOT in the bag of serious photographers that may be trying to earn a living.

    Hey, there is always some hope that the outrage at Leica's nearly obscene pricing will get them to reconsider......they did make a number of concessions with the M8 after its series of problems ;-) In the meantime, go pull out your present gear, polish it up a bit, and go have some fun shooting with it now that your lust for the S2 has been crushed.....like mine.

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 31st July 2009 at 07:36.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I don't understand the shock and surprise. We are talking about Leica here, very limited production numbers, and these aren't manufactured in China.

    The challenge for Leica IMHO is going to be getting dealers to commit to the program. The margins are good as long as the dealer makes a serious commitment, but how many will? If a dealer doesn't commit to the full S2 program, the margins are less, but then why bother trying to push with the mundane margins? What's the incentive?

    Without the dealers, Leica will have to do all the selling but they don't have the sales force to do it...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think that the absence of upgradability and the short product life of digital gear raise problems for Leica. Talk of a thousand units a year for five years, for example, makes no sense if the camera is no longer cutting edge in three. And the absence of a way to get to a better camera/sensor without losing all of your "investment" in the S2 is a problem. If you have a Phase back, you can trade it in on a higher spec, newer design and get an attractive price on the new back. If you have an S2 and Leica produces an S3, you can sell the S2 here, or on eBay, but Leica has no solution for you.

    The S2 only makes sense if you think that you'll never need (or want ) a "better" camera in the future. It may well be that the S2 is so good that that could be the case, but it doesn't seem common among photographers to be able to sit still while new, better products become available. Maybe it should be.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Well I think the thing is that Leica is pricing themselves like they did with 35mm. They are saying, "oh, we are the best, we can charge double our competitors -- Canon and Nikon". But the problem is they are not playing with Canon and Nikon anymore. They are playing with Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei (well, its slowly decaying corpse anyway). Leica thinks they can demand a huge premium over Hasselblad and Mamiya, which really isn't the case. They don't really have the "premium" argument anymore. Hasselblad does not make "consumer" glass. None of the medium format makers are high volume and none of them have cheap lenses or bodies made in China. There are not really any current lenses in the Hasselblad, Mamiya or Rollei line that could be considered "bad". I doubt the equivalent cost of labor in Japan, Sweden and Denmark is that much cheaper than it is in Germany. So when they come in and price themselves as if they were competing against DX lenses there is a problem.

    Also, I don't think anyone had a problem with them charging a premium, because their glass probably will be better. It is about the KIND of premium they are charging. The 70mm is the best example. Both Mamiya and Hasselblad sell the lens with the bodies, so you would never really have to buy one, but if you did, retail is under 2000 for the Hasselblad 80mm (with shutter) and around 1200 for the Mamiya (no shutter). So the Leica standard lens costs 370% more than the Mamiya lens, and 300% more than the Hasselblad. At the very least, because you are not paying full retail for these lenses when you buy a normal kit, whereas Leica is forcing you to pay full retail.
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yup, at these prices the wholesale pricing means big $$$$ in RISKY inventory for a dealer, many will likely do it on an order-by-order basis only outside of a demo kit.

    As LJ said, if you're in MF, look lovingly at your 'bargain' Hassy, justify that new uber-lens(es) under the excuse that it's a drop in the bucket vs an S2 kit and be happy. You wouldn't notice the difference (vs S2) in prints anyway. It's not like the clients will give a rat's *** if you're lacking that red dot.

    If a DSLR shooter, do the same with your ___ and some nice R glass if you need a fix - or pick up that D3X or step up to the H3DII-31, etc under the 'it's a bloody bargain' justification.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I agree with most of what's being said in this thread. It is an amazing "business school" study.

    I expect the Leica glass to be something "special", but like others here, the premium is absurd in my eyes. I use Leica and Zeiss binoculars, Leica stereo zoom research microscopes (5 of them), etc. because I can see the difference in comparison to others. Still, the premium in those markets is more like 20-35%.

    I certainly expected the S2 lenses to be at least as much as Hasselblad, but not the 70mm; and I felt like a smarter body price would be about double that of the Nikon D3x – say $16K (for the crappy service model), maybe a bit more, + about $2K to $2500 for the 70mm. Get users into the basic body and lens for less than $20K and establish a base.

    I'm one who would have considered such a kit (though am very happy with Phase/Mamiya and will likely move upward in that line as the economy allows), and I would have been one to expect to keep the body for longer than three years. All of this drivel assumes a certain image output quality of course.

    Anyway, I wish Leica well, but I can't help but think that the dealers are not looking forward to this process in the first year of this exercise. During a peak economy it would be a challenging enough formula. Phase and Hassey must be partying.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    You folks get the punch only now, I got it went the DMR was launched, then again with the M8. The 5000 figure at the time were insane to me, but I am a poor "amateur" only !
    I knew then I would never buy leica again.
    When I heard of the S2, I knew they burried themselves alive, sad story.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The Catch 22 aspect of this fiasco is that the more people (rightfully) who think that Solms has really spiked the Kool Aid on this one, the more folks (rightfully) will think they've loaded the shotgun and simply trying to figure out how to get their big toe inside the trigger guard.

    This leads to more folks, beyond the "but it's a Leica.." & collector crowd hesitating or delaying buying one. "...if they're around next year, if prices come down (LOL) and S&S measures up, if I win the lottery, if, if, if...." Not many will want to take a winger on a $50K+ potentially orphan system, regardless of how sweet looking - especially given if you know/think/believe the risk is high going in.

    This of course leads to an early peak to the unit-sales chart after the initial 1st year 1000 'friends & family' volume, and around and around it goes.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I think what is going to kill them on this is, to recap:

    Getting dealers on board. Most dealers of this already have Phamiya and Hassie to try and sell in an uphill battle against D3X and Canon.

    Lack of used, legacy, and after market lenses. The M8 (and M9) price, though high, was easily justified by many users due to already being heavily invested in M glass. Same for D3 users. An R10 would have been the same - they really missed the boat on that one.

    Lack of rental gear. This is a biggie, esp for the mysterious "superstar" shooters that will supposedly rescue this thing. When one is shooting high end commercial jobs it's much easier to charge off the price of rental gear, therefore lots of high end shooter don't actually own that much gear.

    The service pricing thing. Shouldn't one buying a $20K plus camera already be guaranteed that? Esp as it's a new system. Really, the camera and lenses should be so fricking airtight that servicing is never really a necessity. Too many horror stories out the about the M8. I should know - I lived some of them yet still love the camera though when i show up for a money gig it's with the D3 in hand.

    Sorry thing is, just think if they had thrown all of that R&D investment into the M and for some serious non-rebranded compacts. And getting their **** together in the service dept. (like automated tracking!!!?? - buy NJ a couple of computers already!).

    Sad..... though if I did win the lottery tomorrow... oh, that's right, I don't gamble.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    My sentiments are with Charles - exactly.

    I love the M8.

    But when i was on a shoot on location, a million miles from civilization, a mere 6 months after buying it new, and the shutter failed, i was sure glad that D3 was in the bag.

    Leica missed the boat on this one. And I'm very sad to see that. Charles is right on - they should have come out with a killer R10 and rock solid M9.

    Damn.

  24. #124
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Ummmm wow.... the ultimate closed system, so expensive most real photographers won’t contemplate it. Some systems could be termed as closed through hardware or software but closed because of bank balance???

    The body price we all thought would be high, but not this high. But the real shock is the price of the lenses, they are just mind blowing.

    I’m not a Pro in any way shape or form, I class myself as an enthusiastic amateur I enjoy photography I use medium format (Bronica ETRSi) because of the way it slows you down and makes you think about what you are shooting, not bringing the camera to your face and machine gunning and just hope you might have something. Would I like to go digital medium format? Yes. Can I afford it? No. So why am I here this is mainly a digital forum? Because I’ve learned so much, the work you guys produce is amazing and you don’t hold back on giving advice or help.

    I’ve watched the almost excitement of the Leica S2 grow here then Bang!!! Price!!!

    I’m just an amateur and I can see that the pricing strategy is a few slices short of a picnic. I can see that in this economic situation no Pro will consider investing the amount of money they would have to invest to make a basic system up. Medium Format Pros would look at it and think what I have at the moment works for me, where would the incentive be for me to get one? 35mm Pros would look at it and think how much!! What’s the second hand market like on Phase or Hasselblad at least I know they work.

    As an amateur I can see this camera as rich peoples newest bling, all they would probably sell at a time is one camera with one lens, that’s it. If they drop the price of the lenses drastically then maybe a few would be tempted to get more than one lens, bring the price of the body down as well then more photographers might be tempted. But I’m just an amateur so what would I know .

    David

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    ....Sorry thing is, just think if they had thrown all of that R&D investment into the M.......
    Which would have strengthened the company, and revitalised a line carrying tired, half-century old designs. I have always believed that there were more urgent needs than the development of the S2, but these rarified prices worry me that a different sort of cost will be paid; by the digital M line. It's important for digital M users that the S2 does not fail, but pricing a camera outside of the reach of photographers does seem a pretty dumb idea for a camera company needing all the good will it can grab.

    ........... Chris

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    With these prices, they need a lease plan.
    -bob

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Yes, a M9 please ... and NOT a $13,000. one either. And NOT one where you need 2 of them to be sure you have a working M digital ... especially @ $13,000.

    The way I made sure my M8 wouldn't fail was to get two of them ... then nothing happens to either of them ...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    We need hope and pray every day that the S2 is a roaring success, else Leica will use the M9 to offset for S2 losses. I hope those 1000 people are lined up and putting down deposits on their S2's as we type. If the Leica goes kaput due to S2, well, let that happen AFTER they produce (and ship) the M9!!!

    I don't understand why Leica management opted to delay the M9. There were M8 owners lined up for the M9, but instead we got the M8.2. Once the M8.2 was announced, some M8 owners exited the system. Then Leica said the S2 was a priority over all else. More M8 owners moved onto other systems. The new M lenses are insanely expensive (the new Nocti & 24 Lux). And the Safari and White editions of the M8.2?!?! And R owners have far more to bitch about than M owners... The long Leica waits, the smaller the M9 market gets. And these crazy prices are alienating their customers.

    Leica's weekly staff meetings should have been short and sweet because of only one topic on the agenda - "how's the M9 progressing." And had Leica not gone done the S2 path, they probably could have picked up F&H for pennies and produced the HY6 and used that system to leverage into the medium format business. Had Leica stuck to their core business... Sigh...

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    When have cameras ever cost more than cars? Have we gone insane? The original retail for the M3 was 250 dollars, which was about 1900 USD when adjusted for inflation. And the S2 is 22,000? What happened here? I know that people consider the S2 expensive, even compared to the other medium format digital solutions, but who decided that digital cameras were worth over 10,000 USD when the most expensive film camera before that was well below 10,000? (the Hasselblad 200 series maxed out at 7000 in the 90s, which was absurd...even the Leicas were in the 1000-2000 range at the time).
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    I truly believe that the saddest thing about the s2 is that the absurd pricing will obliterate any chance of a future used market...especially the lenses. I know people that have spent big $$$ on backs because the used market offered great glass and accesories at reachable prices. I'd venture to say that most folks have gotten into mf at least partially via the used market. The obsurd leica pricing almost completely destroys the chance of a future used market for the s system... Either due to the lack of cameras in the public's hands or due to no one wanting to take a hit on an already overpriced system.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Charles, Marc and John....

    Yes, yes....I'm all for you folks who want the new M9, but come on now, fair is fair.....at least you've had one crack at digital Leica rangefinder. Pity the poor R-series folks. Don't you think they deserve a little love from Leica too? I'll bet many of them would have paid $8k for that long awaited R10 (24 megapixels please). Then Canon and Nikon would have had some serious competition.

    Gary

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    When have cameras ever cost more than cars?
    About the same time that some cars cost more than houses

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    When have cameras ever cost more than cars? Have we gone insane? The original retail for the M3 was 250 dollars, which was about 1900 USD when adjusted for inflation. And the S2 is 22,000? What happened here? I know that people consider the S2 expensive, even compared to the other medium format digital solutions, but who decided that digital cameras were worth over 10,000 USD when the most expensive film camera before that was well below 10,000? (the Hasselblad 200 series maxed out at 7000 in the 90s, which was absurd...even the Leicas were in the 1000-2000 range at the time).
    Indeed! The other aspect is that an old Leica still works, and is just as good as it was 50 years ago. You worked your way up to lifetime purchases ... with a Leica M, Nikon F and a Hassey (or pick your variation) and used them until you retired.

    Now you buy a digital system that is obsolete in a year. Not really obsolete, but is sure is made to seem that way. 25K camera that now sells new for 15K a year later... making your 25K camera worth what on the used market?

    You REALLY have to make sure that what you buy is something you are prepared to stick with for a long time ... which is in itself a gamble given that companies are going belly up all over the place.

    Times change. Hard times change even more.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Charles, Marc and John....

    Yes, yes....I'm all for you folks who want the new M9, but come on now, fair is fair.....at least you've had one crack at digital Leica rangefinder. Pity the poor R-series folks. Don't you think they deserve a little love from Leica too? I'll bet many of them would have paid $8k for that long awaited R10 (24 megapixels please). Then Canon and Nikon would have had some serious competition.

    Gary
    I think you are on the money there ... and I wouldn't have blinked twice if the price had been just shy of 10K since Canon and Nikon Pro units were priced at 8K @ launch.

    But the M is Leica's life line, and people keep buying the higher performance lenses ... which are anything but economical ... because they deliver second to none.

    Personally, I don't need or want some 25 meg FF M9 ... FF, yes, but 16 meg and much better low light ability without pixel shmeer would get my vote.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    An R10 would have gotten my vote AND my money! And yes, probably even at 10K for the reasons Marc points out.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    If I had a mainly optical company I would want to develop a camera that made me sell a lot of lenses instead of just very few lenses ...

  37. #137
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Wow, this is the first I have seen of this pricing. I've been out climbing too many rocks I guess. It will be interesting to see if this pans out for them. I hope the quality is good enough to carve them out a space in the market.

    I expected them to fall between high-end DSLR and MF where there seems to be more room in the market.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    If I had a mainly optical company I would want to develop a camera that made me sell a lot of lenses instead of just very few lenses ...
    I'd guess that you would not need to sell a lot ... if each one cost that much.

    That is another reason the R 10 made sense ... pent up demand for AF Leica optics. Look at how successful Sony has been with a Prosumer level, high meg camera because of the AF Zeiss lenses available for it. Granted, the A900 is only 3K, but the Zeiss ZA lenses aren't exactly inexpensive considering that none of them are APO designs.

  39. #139
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    The biggest problem with this camera isn't the price, but the marketing. On their website, Leica states: "In a class by itself", followed up by studio shots on the S2 page that could just as well have been taken with any MF camera. Result: photographers on this and other forums discuss the price of the S2 compared to Hasselblad and Phamiya, a comparison the Leica is doomed to lose.

    If Leica had shown photos of the camera in use by some super tough NG photographer hanging from Mount Everest by one hand in the rain, taking photos with the S2 with the other, we would have seen some very different discussions. It is a unique camera, but it's hardly mentioned in any discussion I've seen so far.

    Leica's marketing and PR department (do they have one?) has a lot to learn. They'd better start before it's too late. For starters, they should have a look in the Nikon F6 brochure. That's the kind of stuff they need to show to build confidence behind what is supposed to be an all-weather camera. Not some dinky studio shots.

    Some photographers, like me, wouldn't even consider a traditional MF camera, so comparing the price with those is rather uninteresting. The question for me is if I can afford it or not. At the moment, I can't, but if I could, I would buy it in an instant if it works as claimed.

  40. #140
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    These reactions from mostly people in the US are understandable allthough somewhat unjustified.
    Leica will have a problem selling the S2 in the US as long as the exchange rate is 1.4 USD for 1 euro. That is a fact nobody will deny.
    That exchange rate at the moment is unhealthy and should be more like 1 USD for 1 euro.

    The discussion that Leica will offer the camera for the same amount of dollars as it will offer the camera for in euro's is over with these prices.
    At least for the time the exchange rate is out of balance.

    Take 30% of the US prices and you will have the price we pay in Europe in the euro area.
    That gives quite a different perspective.

    Another thing nobody pointed at: It is easier to cut prices than to increase prices.
    If sales are less than expected a price cut may well be possible.

    In absolute terms the S2 is not priced out of reach for most Europeans be it pro's or amateurs.

    @ Stuart Richardson,
    Although I fail to see what the price of a car has to with a digital camera a decent VW or a Mercedes C class costs about the same as an S2 kit in Europe.

    As for the future of Leica depending on the faith of the S2:
    Leica is owned by a powerful German entrepreneur who can in fact afford the whole S2 adventure to be written off against taxes.
    Nobody with a sense for sound business starts the development of a new product to loose money.
    In this case it is highly unlikely an unsuccesfull S2 will take Leica down.

  41. #141
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Louvre View Post
    These reactions from mostly people in the US are understandable allthough somewhat unjustified.

    snip


    Another thing nobody pointed at: It is easier to cut prices than to increase prices.
    If sales are less than expected a price cut may well be possible.

    In absolute terms the S2 is not priced out of reach for most Europeans be it pro's or amateurs.

    snip

    As for the future of Leica depending on the faith of the S2:
    Leica is owned by a powerful German entrepreneur who can in fact afford the whole S2 adventure to be written off against taxes.
    Nobody with a sense for sound business starts the development of a new product to loose money.
    In this case it is highly unlikely an unsuccesfull S2 will take Leica down.
    Just a note of solidarity - I completely agree - this thread is like some kind of dreadful outraged feeding frenzy. You don't like the price? don't buy it then! If everyone agrees then it'll be a failure - if not . . .

    As for the development of an M9 - as I said back in May, if they were developing one, they wouldn't tell us (quite unlike the S2).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    We need hope and pray every day that the S2 is a roaring success, else Leica will use the M9 to offset for S2 losses.
    I believe there won't be any M9 (full frame) at all.
    *First because Leica has always said it was impossible to make a FF into a M body with actual M lenses. Remember they couldn't place a proper IR filter to avoid problem with certain lenses geting too much inside. It seems to be a physical size matter and it's not going to change.
    *Second, what was 2009 Leica incomes made from? M8.2 ? Hug....! P&S ? Pana sell them not Leica.
    They should be already into the hole !
    *Third, the M concept is outdated (see below)

    The new M lenses are insanely expensive (the new Nocti & 24 Lux). And the Safari and White editions of the M8.2?!?!
    As was the DMR and the M8 !!!!!! Awfully expensive !!!! I repeat again these cameras are just pieces of electronic the market provides to everyone. Is Leica so pretentious to mark up five times what they don't manufacture? As for lenses it's a bit different and we can understand a high price for a high mechanical/optical products Leica does.
    Again whealthy people didn't care for 5000 figure, at 25000 they feel the punch and bark with the wolf.

    The longer Leica waits, the smaller the M9 market gets. And these crazy prices are alienating their customers.
    The MicroThird format has taken over the M, Leica is part the 4/3 membership and here again they missed the boat.

  43. #143
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    No offense, but the 4/3 concept and cameras don't do much for me. Probably just me, but I can't fathom giving up the rangefinder experience for a 4/3 experience.

    Kurt

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    No matter how good the S System really is or not - these prices are a joke

    I cannot see any application where such a system will be worth the money especially if you compare to P65+ and the new H3D2-60. And those prices are more than competitive!

    And finally - which SW is going to ship with the S System being comparable with C1Pro or Phocus ????

    I feel this is a clear nightmare where Leica is driving into. Wish them good luck but I do not believe in this!

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The biggest problem with this camera isn't the price, but the marketing. On their website, Leica states: "In a class by itself", followed up by studio shots on the S2 page that could just as well have been taken with any MF camera. Result: photographers on this and other forums discuss the price of the S2 compared to Hasselblad and Phamiya, a comparison the Leica is doomed to lose.

    If Leica had shown photos of the camera in use by some super tough NG photographer hanging from Mount Everest by one hand in the rain, taking photos with the S2 with the other, we would have seen some very different discussions. It is a unique camera, but it's hardly mentioned in any discussion I've seen so far.

    Leica's marketing and PR department (do they have one?) has a lot to learn. They'd better start before it's too late. For starters, they should have a look in the Nikon F6 brochure. That's the kind of stuff they need to show to build confidence behind what is supposed to be an all-weather camera. Not some dinky studio shots.

    Some photographers, like me, wouldn't even consider a traditional MF camera, so comparing the price with those is rather uninteresting. The question for me is if I can afford it or not. At the moment, I can't, but if I could, I would buy it in an instant if it works as claimed.
    I'd have to agree with you on this point to some degree. I spent a life time marketing almost everything under the sun, including some pretty expensive considered purchase items.

    IMEO Leica has missed the mark so many times with their marketing and PR efforts that one wonders if there is a sub conscience corporate death wish at work More likely it's stubborn corporate arrogance ... of which there are numerous examples in the news every day.

    A potential issue with your marketing scenario is that companies like Phase One have done extreme torture tests with their backs already ... and its common knowledge that their gear will take a lickin' and keep on tickin' (frozen in a block of ice; Elephant stop demos). Now the camera body and lens o rings is a different story, and perhaps the source of a competitive stance. However, if even slightly successful, I doubt it would take much for Hassey and Phase to seal up their systems overnight.

    The other aspect is the advent of some pretty "up there" bullet proof 35mm DSLRs ... and relentlessly improving optics as a result of higher meg. machines. These cameras are already in excess of what many publishers and even advertisers require for reproduction ... who, BTW, are paying considerably less for the work these days. I think most pros that could afford this system would be paying for it with money made 5 years ago, not now, or even in the foreseeable future.

    Like you, I'd like one. Like you I can't afford it. Coulda, woulda, shoulda ... but couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't.

    In a nut shell that's the number one marketing hurdle IMO.

    Including full 3 year (or longer) full passport warranties at least during the launch phase would have helped position the S2 as being both a higher image quality camera than a 35mm DSLR, while being as tough as any 35mm DSLR out there. Whether even that would be enough is debateable.

  46. #146
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    (...) Look at how successful Sony has been with a Prosumer level, high meg camera because of the AF Zeiss lenses available for it. Granted, the A900 is only 3K, but the Zeiss ZA lenses aren't exactly inexpensive considering that none of them are APO designs.
    I fully agree, Marc.

    The clever combination of Sony A900 + the high-end ZA lenses was exactly what I had in mind when saying: "If I had a mainly optical company I would want to develop a camera that made me sell a lot of lenses instead of just very few lenses ... "

    I simply fear that Leica's camera price will decrease the sale. The high-end S-lenses vill last for decades, the digital body won't.

  47. #147
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Just a note of solidarity - I completely agree - this thread is like some kind of dreadful outraged feeding frenzy. You don't like the price? don't buy it then! If everyone agrees then it'll be a failure - if not . . .
    You might be right Jono. But if I were introducing a new product to market and encountered this sort of reaction to its pricing by one of the larger markets for said product, I'd have to be concerned. As in most aspects of life, perception is often the most critical part of success. So far, as Jorgen has suggested with his remarks about the Leica Marketing and PR, we have only their word that it's the "best" but very real evidence that it's the most expensive.

    All of which is ok I guess. There is always a product (seemingly) that is considered the ultimate in terms of quality with a price to match. But after all the odd stumbles surrounding the M and the management changes at Leica, it (the intro of the S2) feels like the opposite of a foundation for future success.

    It may turn out that we're all a bunch of whiners (whingers?) and that within months, the Euro and the Dollar will be on par allowing everyone in here to suddenly realize they can afford to take the plunge with a completely new system. But until then I have to trust my gut which tells me this is far too rich for my blood and start getting serious about the alternatives.

    And yes, that is disappointing. I really wanted the camera. The long build-up since the first revelation of the camera had me salivating. It feels almost as if after silently building my courage and rationalizing every which way, when I finally asked Gwyneth Paltrow for a date, she laughed at me.

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Buying the M digital hasn't done any good to Leica. Because they could afford the toy they bought it without much price consideration but just rely on "Leica fame".
    This has encouraged leica in their wrong pretentious path.
    The S2 idea was to beat the CanoNikon FF "only", already dropping the R line in their mind, until they realised they were playing with MF, they thought "great idea we'll strike two with one stone".
    If only this prices concern had taken place when it should, means at the launch of the DMR and then the M8, this S2 project would never existed and Leica alive

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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by sinwen View Post
    Buying the M digital hasn't done any good to Leica. Because they could afford the toy they bought it without much price consideration but just rely on "Leica fame"....
    If, by 'they' you mean those of us who purchased the M8; then your statement needs redressing. The M8 is my first Leica. I purchased it after rigourously following the trauma of it's bodged release [complete with utterly incompetent PR and marketing by Leica], and the revelations by the earliest adopters that it was indeed a compact camera which punched above it's weight. I downsized to the M8 after working with 6x7, and 6x9 rollfilm rangefinder cameras for over 25 years, it was a very conscious choice to purchase the M8 and the cost was big for me. My M8 is a serious camera bought for serious work, it has it's legacy faults and I've voiced them , but it doesn't resemble a toy in any way whatsoever.

    Contrary to your assertion, those of us who did take the leap by purchasing the M8 may well have saved the company - though that is a speculation as none of us have access to the company's true financial health at the that time. I have zero interest in what you perceive as 'Leica fame', but I do have interest in seeing the company invigorate it's 'M' line - which I believe has greater potential than the current M8/M8.2, or the S2 which has always felt like a vanity dead end to me. Leica deserves a lot of the criticism it gets from it's customers, but your sloganeering I quoted above is ultimately weightless, and worthless, and fails to land a blow - if that was your intention.

    ........... Chris

  50. #150
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    Re: Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    If, by 'they' you mean those of us who purchased the M8; then your statement needs redressing. The M8 is my first Leica. I purchased it after rigourously following the trauma of it's bodged release [complete with utterly incompetent PR and marketing by Leica], and the revelations by the earliest adopters that it was indeed a compact camera which punched above it's weight. I downsized to the M8 after working with 6x7, and 6x9 rollfilm rangefinder cameras for over 25 years, it was a very conscious choice to purchase the M8 and the cost was big for me. My M8 is a serious camera bought for serious work, it has it's legacy faults and I've voiced them , but it doesn't resemble a toy in any way whatsoever.

    Contrary to your assertion, those of us who did take the leap by purchasing the M8 may well have saved the company - though that is a speculation as none of us have access to the company's true financial health at the that time. I have zero interest in what you perceive as 'Leica fame', but I do have interest in seeing the company invigorate it's 'M' line - which I believe has greater potential than the current M8/M8.2, or the S2 which has always felt like a vanity dead end to me. Leica deserves a lot of the criticism it gets from it's customers, but your sloganeering I quoted above is ultimately weightless, and worthless, and fails to land a blow - if that was your intention.

    ........... Chris
    Ditto.

    After many initial trials and tribulations with the M8, it has settled down to be a serious tool I use for a fair amount of paying work. Nothing is more welcome when on the go for 8 straight hours of shooting than to lift the M8 to eye rather than the lead brick I've been toting around all day. The image quality for much of that work demonstrates that the Leica legacy is still there running side-by-side with the big dogs.

    -Marc

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