Upgrade your lensor sensor to 16mp?

[Godfrey]

Ok

Well, on DPR just now, I read responses from two folks who seem to have good Ricoh connections. They said that the Ricoh call center response implying that the A12 camera units would be upgradable to an A16 sensor was incorrect, a misunderstanding.

I suspect the sensible way forward is to release new A16 camera units with the same lenses (with re-optimizations as appropriate) as time rolls forward. That way you get ongoing sensor development and improved operations with the GXR system going forward, and the cost is less than in a traditional system since you're only paying for the camera unit, not the whole camera.

At $650 per A12 28 and 50 camera units, that's actually not too expensive given the quality of the lenses they include and the excellent sensor performance they already have. The sensor assembly is more than half the cost of the camera unit, I'm sure.

 

[Vivek]

So, you and Vivek both want a B&W only sensor but cannot articulate a good reason why it has any advantage, despite the disadvantages I cited.

Godfrey, See this (one of the latest such so I add it here): B&W Conversion

There are also articles on the Kodak's monochrome camera and such on the web. Read them for yourself to check if your concerns hold any water.

There are other reasons for my quest for a monochrome camera. I am not going to list them here since as such the topic has taken a detour.

 

[Streetshooter]

Thanks for the update. I also saw that the DPR. I don't like posting there but I do read.
If Ricoh releases a few A16 units at say, $600.00 USD or so, what value would the used A12 units have? Not just financially but also in use.

Vivek, cool link...thanks...

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, See this (one of the latest such so I add it here): B&W Conversion

There are also articles on the Kodak's monochrome camera and such on the web. Read them for yourself to check if your concerns hold any water.

There are other reasons for my quest for a monochrome camera. I am not going to list them here since as such the topic has taken a detour.

The example in that link has nothing in it to illustrate the concept I'm speaking of. Did you ever do B&W photography with film?

I used the Kodak DCS760w for a while, belonged to a friend of mine who was using it for his work. To illustrate what I mean I'll have to do an example shoot for you, since you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about.

But I won't bother since you don't seem to want to discuss it. It's a bit of work to do the example properly.

 

[Vivek]

Indeed, if you had not noticed it, I try to avoid interacting with you.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks for the update. I also saw that the DPR. I don't like posting there but I do read.
If Ricoh releases a few A16 units at say, $600.00 USD or so, what value would the used A12 units have? Not just financially but also in use.

Why would they release A16 camera units at prices lower than what the A12 camera units have sold well for?

What value do the A12 camera units have now, both financially and in use? The resale price will go down, but in use ... they are exactly the same as what you're using now. Is your photographic effort constrained so much that 15% more linear resolution or an extra stop of usable sensitivity is going to make that much of a difference?

 

[Godfrey]

Indeed, if you had not noticed it, I try to avoid interacting with you.

Ok, that's easy. The ignore function is helpful.

 

[woodmancy]

Godfrey, we are all friends. You are very knowledgable as well as a fine shooter. If you leave this thread, it shall be noted as a loss.
Please, I ask in front of all... Reconsider your stance and share your knowledge.

I personally will appreciate it and would hate to suffer the loss.
Don

+1

Well said, Don

Keith

 

[Streetshooter]

Thanks Keith...that's why I do Admin work....

 

[Streetshooter]

Why would they release A16 camera units at prices lower than what the A12 camera units have sold well for?

What value do the A12 camera units have now, both financially and in use? The resale price will go down, but in use ... they are exactly the same as what you're using now. Is your photographic effort constrained so much that 15% more linear resolution or an extra stop of usable sensitivity is going to make that much of a difference?

My photographic work is not in the least constrained.
I do very well in my area. I don't see anything negative with upgrading gear.
If the GXR keeps expanding, I will hang in with it for a long time. If not, I still will. This camera offers no intrusion on my vision.

Changing sensors, lensors only adds to the adaptability and offers maybe another way of seeing.

This is wanted by all. A camera that allows your vision to reach its potential, challeng that vision and help you find that vision.

If upgrades aren't really needed, why would you add the M9?
Not because it's a Leica, that's not the issue, is it?

 

[woodmancy]

If Ricoh brings out a B & W Lensor, I'm standing in line for it. Here is a good discussion between a veteran photographic magazine editor and a physicist looking at all the nuances around this topic. Please read this if you haven't already, you will enjoy it.

The Online Photographer: Mike and Ctein Discuss B&W-Only Sensor Implementation (Digital B&W Part III)

Ricoh's digital DNA has black and white running through it - so I wouldn't be surprised if they do something.

Keith

 

[Streetshooter]

Thanks Keith.

 

[Godfrey]

...
If upgrades aren't really needed, why would you add the M9?
Not because it's a Leica, that's not the issue, is it?

The Leica M9 isn't an "upgrade."

Although I've owned Leica cameras of all sorts for thirty and more years, the fact that the M9 is a Leica is one of the smallest points of my purchasing it. The fact that it is an optical rangefinder camera which takes my existing lenses is the important part.

It's a different kind of camera with a different format, with a different kind of focusing and viewfinder. I work with it differently from how I work with the GXR; its different format and its different focusing/viewing system allow me to see in a different way.

I didn't need the additional pixel resolution the M9 offers. I had considered the M8 or Epson R-D1 to save money but what I wanted were the imaging qualities, driven by the format size, and as close to the handling/in-use characteristics of the film Ms as I could get. The M9 is the only game in town for what I was after.

The M cameras are very different from the GXR in that respect, and it's something that I've missed since I sold my last Ms in 2002. I'm happy to have it back, as in 2002 it was unclear as to whether Leica would survive at all or whether there could ever be a digital camera in the same format that would work properly with the RF lenses.

If anything, the M9 is for me a retrograde or sideways step ... re-acquiring an older camera type and shooting style that I prefer.

 

[Godfrey]

If Ricoh brings out a B & W Lensor, I'm standing in line for it. Here is a good discussion between a veteran photographic magazine editor and a physicist looking at all the nuances around this topic. Please read this if you haven't already, you will enjoy it.

The Online Photographer: Mike and Ctein Discuss B&W-Only Sensor Implementation (Digital B&W Part III)

Ricoh's digital DNA has black and white running through it - so I wouldn't be surprised if they do something.

Read that when it was first published, thanks for reminding me of it.

I think Ctein dances lightly across the finesse possible by manipulating RGB curves along with using multiple layers and masking as opposed to optical B&W filtering. Changing the RGB filtering selectively within an image is also not possible by filtering optically ... and easily done in image processing. Of course, with a monochrome sensor, you can always shoot filtered R, G and B layers independently and blend them for color (like we do with science instruments) ... that nets the full capabilities of the color information but is somewhat 'disadvantaged' for doing people photography.

And remember: with digital imaging it's all numbers. I can manipulate the numbers with infinitely more precision than I can select and manipulate which filter I choose, even if I can't do it with sliders in a clumsy dialog window. I use to write image processing software for NASA ... ;-)

 

[Streetshooter]

Godfrey, I'm an old M shooter also. I still have more bodies and lenses then most stores in stock. I was the buyer at Kosmins here in Philly.
Ok, I'm qualified to understand your reason for the M9.
I get it 100%.
The reason you have the M9 is the exact reason why I want a B&W sensor.
To help me see what I see differently.

By the way. The eppy RD1-s is a nice camera and makes the best images ever from a 6mp camera but the Rangefinder ... Well... If Moses used it, there would be another Commandment....

 

[woodmancy]

. . .. .
By the way. The eppy RD1-s is a nice camera and makes the best images ever from a 6mp camera but the Rangefinder ... Well... If Moses used it, there would be another Commandment....

My RD-1s is still for sale on Craigs List, maybe I should change my mind. Best picture in the only photo book I ever done is from that camera.
Following closely for IQ in my collection is the Minolta 7D (same sensor?) - I'm still shooting a lot with that one.

Hope this turns into a discussion of Black and White film, stuff gets buried down in that analog section. Film is fifty percent of my time these days - vive la figital revolution. Trying some 127 in my Yashica 44 at the weekend - square is beautiful

Keith

 

[woodmancy]

Read that when it was first published, thanks for reminding me of it.

I think Ctein dances lightly across the finesse possible by manipulating RGB curves along with using multiple layers and masking as opposed to optical B&W filtering. Changing the RGB filtering selectively within an image is also not possible by filtering optically ... and easily done in image processing. Of course, with a monochrome sensor, you can always shoot filtered R, G and B layers independently and blend them for color (like we do with science instruments) ... that nets the full capabilities of the color information but is somewhat 'disadvantaged' for doing people photography.

And remember: with digital imaging it's all numbers. I can manipulate the numbers with infinitely more precision than I can select and manipulate which filter I choose, even if I can't do it with sliders in a clumsy dialog window. I use to write image processing software for NASA ... ;-)

Ctein also kind of dismisses a mere 20-30 percent increase in resolution, whereas we all know how easy it is to recognize a sensor with the AA filter removed . .

Keith

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, I'm an old M shooter also. I still have more bodies and lenses then most stores in stock. I was the buyer at Kosmins here in Philly.
Ok, I'm qualified to understand your reason for the M9.
I get it 100%.
The reason you have the M9 is the exact reason why I want a B&W sensor.
To help me see what I see differently....

I can understand that. The problem I have with it is that, in use, it just didnt pan out very well ... The resolution and sensitivity of the Kodak were fine for the time, but to get the results I wanted required the same dance with filters and such that image processing of RGB data freed me from. If it happens, and you go for it, I'll be very interested to see what you make of it.

I've never been satisfied with any of the cameras' I've had in-camera B&W rendering either. Just find it awkward and not quite what I want. YMMV

 

[Godfrey]

...
Hope this turns into a discussion of Black and White film, stuff gets buried down in that analog section. Film is fifty percent of my time these days - vive la figital revolution. Trying some 127 in my Yashica 44 at the weekend - square is beautiful.

Speaking of which, my uncle handed me his lovely Polaroid SX-70 over the weekend. I just ordered a few packs of The Impossible Project film for it, both BW and color. I'm looking forward to experimenting with the BW most.

 

[woodmancy]

This is sounding like the serendipity of Dickens. The only Leica I ever had was a nice IIIg, some 35 years ago. I sold it for a . . . . SX-70, which I still have.

Let me know how that film goes, shall I buy some?

Keith