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Thread: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

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    A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    HI There
    Not sure this needs a thread, but it's to avoid being asked 100 questions.

    I've really enjoyed my 24 hours with the lovely A7r - but.

    This morning I did a series of tripod shots with:
    28 'cron (f2 and f5.6)
    35 FLE (f1.4 and f5.6)
    50 'lux (f1.4 and f5.6)
    60 macro elmarit R
    35-70 f4 vario elmar
    Zeiss 28-85 vario sonnar.

    I shot the same series with my M(240).

    Basically, there's more detail in the A7r shots, sometimes lots more detail, but the three M lenses all had issues shot wide open (the 50 not much - but some).
    This means that one would have to shoot with care and consideration with each of these lenses

    The R lenses were great - but in every case the decision as to which was better had more to do with focus accuracy than definition. . . . and I NEVER use a tripod in the 'real' world.

    I do two sorts of shooting - a) more careful shooting with prime lenses, and b) pottering about the a zoom lens and the dogs. . . . . . So, what I had to decide was whether the A7r would be the camera of choice in either of this situations (assuming that the 24-70 f4 zoom will be good when it comes).

    The honest answer is no. When shooting carefully with primes I'd still rather use a rangefinder - and I already have an M. . . .
    when pottering about with a dog and a zoom the Olympus E-M1 with the 12-40 zoom is perfect, lighting quick focusing and brilliant image stabilisation. Added to which I can pop a 600mm equivalent lens in a coat pocket in case I see something interesting a long way off.

    If the A7r had produced better results with M lenses overall, then the decision might have been different. . . .and if I didn't already have an M then I would certainly be keeping it.

    Of course, this is MY decision, and it's largely to do with my careless and casual way of shooting.

    I don't have any criticisms of the A7r as a camera - I loved the controls and the results, even the shutter noise didn't bug me, but basically it's a big beast in a small box, and to get the most of it one will eventually need big lenses too.

    So, I'll really miss chatting about it here and investigating its quirks and wonders, - especially with so many great photographers and friends snapping them up, but it's not for me.

    . . . . . if the native lenses turn out to be very good, or they bring out another body with IS then things might change.

    So - enjoy your wonderful new camera - I'll be watching!

    all the best to all the best

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.



    (I did not read your post. Thanks for the title! )
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Jono, many thanks for posting this! I would have loved to see more of your images taken with the A7R, but I fully understand your reasoning. The reason I'm interested in this camera is exactly because I *don't* have another FF ILC like a Leica M available (and because the NEX-7 has taught me to use a tripod for most of my shooting). Will be picking my A7R up tomorrow. Can't wait!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Incidentally, I'm sure we would all be happy if you were to share images of your comparison between A7R and M240.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I liked this one: Is Sony the New Leica? | Leica BOSS

    I am sure there will be plenty of all sorts of comparisons to come.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Jono, many thanks for posting this! I would have loved to see more of your images taken with the A7R, but I fully understand your reasoning. The reason I'm interested in this camera is exactly because I *don't* have another FF ILC like a Leica M available (and because the NEX-7 has taught me to use a tripod for most of my shooting). Will be picking my A7R up tomorrow. Can't wait!
    Hi Ron - thanks for the kind words. I might actually have a few more images to post.

    In your position I'd be really excited as well - it's a fantastic camera, no doubt. I just had to decide whether it was going to help me to take better pictures than the cameras I already have.


    . . . . as for sharing my samples - I'm really not rigorous enough to be able to do it without being criticised - it's one thing doing it to your own satisfaction, but something different to do it to an independent third party's satisfaction. . . . . . added to which, history relates that kind of comparison only starts a flame war!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    So you had issues with the 35 lux? Hmmm..........this is not sounding good. Although the A7 is said to have less issues (corner smearing, magenta shift) compared to the A7r. I will have to see when my camera comes.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by roanjoh View Post
    So you had issues with the 35 lux? Hmmm..........this is not sounding good. Although the A7 is said to have less issues (corner smearing, magenta shift) compared to the A7r. I will have to see when my camera comes.
    They weren't that serious - and I could have lived with it if there wasn't a perfectly good M sitting here as an alternative.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I will miss your stunning images and well worded posts.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Thank you Lou . . .
    A7r with Noctilux and silver efex pro


    heading off down the road

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Thanks Jono, very nice!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Hi Jono,
    Your rational makes perfect sense to me - not that it matters what I think. Personally, I would prefer the M over the A7R, but I will be getting the A7R based on bang-for-the-buck and flexibility. If I still had some M lenses laying about, then would be more inclined to follow my heart instead of wallet.

    FWIW, your sample image of the bridge with the Contax 28-85mm has peaked my interest in that lens. I have the Zeiss 24-70mm f4 on preorder, but it is not planned to be available until early February. The Contax could be fun to try out - I really liked the one-touch zoom/focus lenses of my youth.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I had the A7r for almost 2 weeks. I had M9 and M240, but sold them both ahead of the A7r release. Few things that is obvious for me. The A7r sensor is a lot more demanding that M9/M240 in terms of having the proper optics to get the most out of the sensor. For example, the new 50 APO ASPH combined with the A7r creates images that are close to my phase one digital back, while some wide angle rangefinder lenses are unacceptable even down to F8.

    Overall, I got a lot more keeper form larger aperture lenses like Noct and Summilux through the focus magnification. The smart phone remote control and the WIFI transfer is a great addition, abeit from the rather clumsy first time setup.
    Yat

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    It is a luxury to be able to return a brand new camera for a full refund!

    With some others, we have seen many FS, "I preordered it, after >1 year of wait now I have it, can't return it to the boutique shop and have to sell" and such.

    Sony is great!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is a luxury to be able to return a brand new camera for a full refund!

    With some others, we have seen many FS, "I preordered it, after >1 year of wait now I have it, can't return it to the boutique shop and have to sell" and such.

    Sony is great!
    Hi there Vivek
    It's nothing to do with Sony - WEX have a 7 day returns policy - I've not taken advantage of it before (except when something didn't work properly). But this is a big purchase, and would cost a lot more in the future (buying native lenses), so I thought it better to get out quickly.

    It's quite liberating actually!

    All the best

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    I had the A7r for almost 2 weeks. I had M9 and M240, but sold them both ahead of the A7r release. Few things that is obvious for me. The A7r sensor is a lot more demanding that M9/M240 in terms of having the proper optics to get the most out of the sensor. For example, the new 50 APO ASPH combined with the A7r creates images that are close to my phase one digital back, while some wide angle rangefinder lenses are unacceptable even down to F8.

    Overall, I got a lot more keeper form larger aperture lenses like Noct and Summilux through the focus magnification. The smart phone remote control and the WIFI transfer is a great addition, abeit from the rather clumsy first time setup.
    I understand all of that . . . . . but I just love using rangefinders, and I'm very very practiced, so I still get better focus hit rates with it than with an EVF - and I don't like magnification because I then get the composition wrong!

    Each to his own. Truth to tell I'm more interested in image content than image quality, being an instinctive/reactive photographer the ergonomics/operation of a camera is of more importance (for instance I don't shoot MF, even for landscapes). The difference between an M240 image and an A7r image is easy to see . . . . but it doesn't really float my boat (what an admission!).

    all the best

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi there Vivek
    It's nothing to do with Sony - WEX have a 7 day returns policy - I've not taken advantage of it before (except when something didn't work properly). But this is a big purchase, and would cost a lot more in the future (buying native lenses), so I thought it better to get out quickly.

    It's quite liberating actually!

    All the best
    Good to have that foresight, Jono!

    FWIW, I going to pass on the "native" lenses.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ....Truth to tell I'm more interested in image content than image quality....
    I suspect most of us are like that, but we often succumb to the easy conclusion that better technical quality will mean better pictures. I can't think of a single photograph that moves me that depends on technical quality for its effectiveness.

    The industry has reached a level of technical competence where just about any camera will meet or surpass just about any photographer's technical requirements. It would be great to now see a shift in focus to why most of us got into this discipline in the first place -- the ability to experience and express our distinctive vision of the world around us.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Well said John. Personally I'm over all this gear stuff. I will admit outside this Sony which opens some diffrent doors in gear is about the only thing of interest right now. Outside of it everything else is just standard stuff. Just want to shoot , teach and have fun right now. I also have limited my time on gear talk as its getting boring. Much rather talk about technique and getting images but I also will say this and as the industry keeps filling with personalities that know **** and those that do are slowly just not offering there help anymore it's becoming a more what makes you popular that seems more important than what you know is very disheartening. Anyway have a Great Thanksgiving everyone.

    Also for Jono, good to see you know what is important here and what your comfortable with. A wise choice
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 27th November 2013 at 05:54.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I understand all of that . . . . . but I just love using rangefinders, and I'm very very practiced, so I still get better focus hit rates with it than with an EVF - and I don't like magnification because I then get the composition wrong!

    Each to his own. Truth to tell I'm more interested in image content than image quality, being an instinctive/reactive photographer the ergonomics/operation of a camera is of more importance (for instance I don't shoot MF, even for landscapes). The difference between an M240 image and an A7r image is easy to see . . . . but it doesn't really float my boat (what an admission!).

    all the best
    Yes, at the end of the day, it's the photographer, not the type of the camera that matter most. I still use Leica Monochrome. It's one of those camera that I will never sell.
    Yat

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Sorry, I don't buy all this 'the cameras are now so good that it is the photographer that is the limiting factor' stuff: for most of what most of us do, that might be true but at least sometimes the margins are where we can make a difference and distinguish ourselves from others. Every wedding and event photographer could do with more low-light performance. Many landscape photographers could do with more resolution. Nearly all of us could do with more and better colour and more DR and nearly all of us could do with faster, smaller, lighter, better lenses that are sharper into the corners. We want longer battery life, better IS, faster and more accurate AF, the list is long and the hope of its fulfilment, which is slowly being realised, is what keeps us buying gear. I also think that the average standard of enthusiast and prosumer photography has improved as the technical limitations and price points have made more possibilities open to more people.

    To say that a talented photographer can make amazing images with a basic camera is true but it isn't the same thing as claiming that further advances in that photographer's technical reach won't allow him to make even more great images and possibly more often.

    Vive la revolution!
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    Vive la revolution!
    Pass the cigar around!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy all this 'the cameras are now so good that it is the photographer that is the limiting factor' stuff: for most of what most of us do, that might be true but at least sometimes the margins are where we can make a difference and distinguish ourselves from others. Every wedding and event photographer could do with more low-light performance. Many landscape photographers could do with more resolution. Nearly all of us could do with more and better colour and more DR and nearly all of us could do with faster, smaller, lighter, better lenses that are sharper into the corners. We want longer battery life, better IS, faster and more accurate AF, the list is long and the hope of its fulfilment, which is slowly being realised, is what keeps us buying gear. I also think that the average standard of enthusiast and prosumer photography has improved as the technical limitations and price points have made more possibilities open to more people.

    To say that a talented photographer can make amazing images with a basic camera is true but it isn't the same thing as claiming that further advances in that photographer's technical reach won't allow him to make even more great images and possibly more often.

    Vive la revolution!
    Agree Tim. BUT it is also how the image creator can use a mouse that often determines whether an image is OK or outstanding. I know that is one of my many limitations, but the learning curve for me is very steep regarding PP. And then add a new piece of digital gear and my learning curve goes nearly straight up for many images until I develop my own acceptable (and hopefully simple) workflow.

    So IMHO, gear+PP can make a difference. So shooting flow and PP workflow.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Difficult, surely, for anyone to reach a definitive conclusion about any camera when it has so far been used for the most part with lenses not designed for it.

    My first experience of the A7R, hopefully at the end of this week, will be with the Zeiss 35mm F/2.8 ZE lens.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Tim, it's this preoccupation with the technical margins that often makes us lose our way creatively and remain on photography's surface. Granted, some can handle both and bring these technical advancements into the service of their vision. But there's no doubt in my mind that most of us would produce better work and find photography more fulfilling by redirecting the energy spent on gear into what we photograph, and how, and why.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Difficult, surely, for anyone to reach a definitive conclusion about any camera when it has so far been used for the most part with lenses not designed for it.

    My first experience of the A7R, hopefully at the end of this week, will be with the Zeiss 35mm F/2.8 ZE lens.
    HI Quentin
    I absolutely agree - and my rejection was not based on any shortcoming of the camera itself - but because I don't want to carry a bag of big lenses around with me, having a teeny body just means that they handle badly!

    At first I thought it would be interesting - I could use the A7r with the 24-70 zoom, 1 telephoto and then use M lenses shared between it and the M(240) - and get rid of my µ43 kit. However I realised that there were too many compromises involved in using M lenses between it and my Leica (I was expecting vignetting, but not smearing).

    My current setup works really well - 2 M bodies, an E-M1 and an E-P5 together with some excellent lenses - the A7r was going to muddy the water badly, without really bringing anything new to the party . . . . . . . I reserve the right to change my mind later if the native lenses turn out to be excellent quality and small .

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy all this 'the cameras are now so good that it is the photographer that is the limiting factor' stuff: for most of what most of us do, that might be true but at least sometimes the margins are where we can make a difference and distinguish ourselves from others. Every wedding and event photographer could do with more low-light performance. Many landscape photographers could do with more resolution. Nearly all of us could do with more and better colour and more DR and nearly all of us could do with faster, smaller, lighter, better lenses that are sharper into the corners. We want longer battery life, better IS, faster and more accurate AF, the list is long and the hope of its fulfilment, which is slowly being realised, is what keeps us buying gear. I also think that the average standard of enthusiast and prosumer photography has improved as the technical limitations and price points have made more possibilities open to more people.
    I agree with all of this - without question BUT. In every situation there is a primary limiting factor - until recently (maybe 2009?) the limiting factor was often the quality of the image, but IMHO the day has come where the usability of the equipment is more often the limiting factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    To say that a talented photographer can make amazing images with a basic camera is true but it isn't the same thing as claiming that further advances in that photographer's technical reach won't allow him to make even more great images and possibly more often.

    Vive la revolution!
    But we aren't talking about basic cameras here - I'm not arguing against technical advances, just wary of changing an entire way of working on the basis of being able to do 60" prints which you can look at from 12" instead of 40" prints which you can look at from 12".

    As for weddings, I've done a few, and I'm not sure that I really need better high ISO any more (3 years ago - yes). . . . at least, not if I've got to sacrifice other really important features like image stabilisation in the Olympus or a rangefinder with Leica (important for me that is of course).

    all the best

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I keep seeing (on various forums) similar thread titles : I like it, actually.
    The great thing is reading WHY the new A7/A7r didn't suit each buyer according to his needs and expectations.
    I'm still waiting for a thread to address my specific A7 expectations but so far there hasn't been a casual cheapskate with a Jupiter-8 (or similar low-grades) who just wants the proper sensor size and to hell with resolution.

    Jono's post here is acutely influenced by his comfort and expertise with a proper rangefinder, a rare point of view I'm sure.

    One thing I'm interested Jono is how similar were the A7r and your E-M1 viewfinders?
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Quentin
    " having a teeny body just means that they handle badly! "
    .
    I'm using that as an excuse to avoid further diets...

    But more on point, the 35mm looks small and a great focal length for general work.

    More when I actually have the items in hand.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Douglas View Post

    One thing I'm interested Jono is how similar were the A7r and your E-M1 viewfinders?
    Hi there Ulfric. I did a very careful comparison, and it seemed to me that the E-M1 had better colour and was bigger, but of course the 4:3 aspect ratio affects that. I also found the A7 seemed a bit 'fizzy' in comparison. But the differences were small.

    ............

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I'm using that as an excuse to avoid further diets...

    But more on point, the 35mm looks small and a great focal length for general work.

    More when I actually have the items in hand.
    Personally I'd have been more interested in the 55. F2.8 is pretty slow though - but one lens does not a system make. I'll certainly think again when there are more lenses available.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Tim, it's this preoccupation with the technical margins that often makes us lose our way creatively and remain on photography's surface. Granted, some can handle both and bring these technical advancements into the service of their vision. But there's no doubt in my mind that most of us would produce better work and find photography more fulfilling by redirecting the energy spent on gear into what we photograph, and how, and why.

    John
    Perhaps we are confusing web banter regarding gear on a site dedicated to that, with private creative explorations? New tech info is something that can be shared, it is what it is ... creative musing are a bit delicate and introspective for having a dialog with people I've never even met.

    I tend to think the technical advancements open new creative doors for the clever photographer that sees what is now creatively viable, or is now easier to do. Every limitation that is lifted is a new possibility ... and new possibilities are the very essence of creativity.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    And with every limitation, new possibilities. There is a wonderful little film called The Legend of 1900, in which the main character 1900 is describing why he did not leave the ship he was on. He said the landscape was infinite. Being a piano player, he explained with 88 keys he can make an infinite variations in music, but if the keyboard was infinite, where would he even begin?

    Yes, I am all for technical innovation, but that does lead to better creative photography. It might lead to new images, but those tend to be neat because we have never sen them before rather than intrinsically good. I have found the photographers we label as "great" were not limited by technology and the technology was not the defining factor in their images.

    As far as the A7R, it really is simply a FF mirrorless. Nothing about that is innovative in any significant sense in regards to creativity. As far as quality, it is no better than a whole host of FF digital cameras available today.
    Will

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Perhaps we are confusing web banter regarding gear on a site dedicated to that, with private creative explorations? New tech info is something that can be shared, it is what it is ... creative musing are a bit delicate and introspective for having a dialog with people I've never even met.

    I tend to think the technical advancements open new creative doors for the clever photographer that sees what is now creatively viable, or is now easier to do. Every limitation that is lifted is a new possibility ... and new possibilities are the very essence of creativity.

    - Marc
    Well said!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    And with every limitation, new possibilities. There is a wonderful little film called The Legend of 1900, in which the main character 1900 is describing why he did not leave the ship he was on. He said the landscape was infinite. Being a piano player, he explained with 88 keys he can make an infinite variations in music, but if the keyboard was infinite, where would he even begin?

    Yes, I am all for technical innovation, but that does lead to better creative photography. It might lead to new images, but those tend to be neat because we have never sen them before rather than intrinsically good. I have found the photographers we label as "great" were not limited by technology and the technology was not the defining factor in their images.

    As far as the A7R, it really is simply a FF mirrorless. Nothing about that is innovative in any significant sense in regards to creativity. As far as quality, it is no better than a whole host of FF digital cameras available today.
    None of which fit the palm of your hand

    Once again we drag out the philosophical chestnuts ... "It's not the gear, it's the photographer behind the gear" ... (odd analogy on a thread where the OP is rejecting a $2,400 piece of gear in favor of a $7,000 one ) ... and the ever favorite "Infinite possibilities that stifles creativity story", same as the "Confines of a chess board story".

    What that has to do with advancing technology that allows one to better capture content (the personal creative variable) in ways not possible before escapes me. What if content can be better captured in places, or situations not possible before?

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I betcha there are still a lot more significant images made on film than those made digitally. Even though I'm sure there are now 10x more digital images made than film.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I tend to think the technical advancements open new creative doors for the clever photographer that sees what is now creatively viable, or is now easier to do. Every limitation that is lifted is a new possibility ... and new possibilities are the very essence of creativity.

    - Marc
    Hi Marc.
    This was a personal opinion, but I felt that this new technological advancement was closing existing creative opportunities and adding limitations (rather than the other way around). But I don't have a stack of A mount lenses to put on it! If I did I would certainly feel differently.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FotoIcon View Post
    I betcha there are still a lot more significant images made on film than those made digitally. Even though I'm sure there are now 10x more digital images made than film.
    Yep, we should all go back to film, because then we'll do significant images ...

    While we are at it let's go back to no computers, no cell phones, 3 channels on the TV ... no wait ... no TV, back to radio ... no wait ... no radio, back to drums. No cars (filthy beasts anyway), back to horses ... no wait, they are filthy also ... back to just walking.



    - Marc

    BTW, I'll go back to film when they pry my digital camera from my cold dead fingers. No wait, if they are cold and dead I can't push the shutter button.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    And with every limitation, new possibilities. There is a wonderful little film called The Legend of 1900, in which the main character 1900 is describing why he did not leave the ship he was on. He said the landscape was infinite. Being a piano player, he explained with 88 keys he can make an infinite variations in music, but if the keyboard was infinite, where would he even begin?

    Yes, I am all for technical innovation, but that does lead to better creative photography. It might lead to new images, but those tend to be neat because we have never sen them before rather than intrinsically good. I have found the photographers we label as "great" were not limited by technology and the technology was not the defining factor in their images.

    As far as the A7R, it really is simply a FF mirrorless. Nothing about that is innovative in any significant sense in regards to creativity. As far as quality, it is no better than a whole host of FF digital cameras available today.
    I'm afraid I buy not a word of that! It is attractive as whimsy only. The pianist would be welcome to take one look at his infinite keyboard, as I do with the Granny On the Beach By Moonlight HDR Panorama Mode, and ignore all but the 88 keys he knows, However, sometimes, he might want to reach for the 90th or the 100th. Beethoven would not have written as well had he only had access to an accordion.

    Aside from writing a lot about the gear side of photography I have a fine art practice. I am personally quite certain that better gear frees me in pursuit of the images I want. I also collect images and have on my wall a Burtynsky which is probably three metre long and an Olaf Otto Becker which is at least 1.2 metres and a Kander which is the same and a Lyon which is as long as a door. All of which would not have the same creative impact were they small. More pixels with higher bit depth and less noise in better bodies fronted by superior lenses = more creative freedom, control and potential.

    The danger comes in reaching for the 100th key before you have become very good at keys 1-88...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    Aside from writing a lot about the gear side of photography I have a fine art practice. I am personally quite certain that better gear frees me in pursuit of the images I want. I also collect images and have on my wall a Burtynsky which is probably three metre long and an Olaf Otto Becker which is at least 1.2 metres and a Kander which is the same and a Lyon which is as long as a door. All of which would not have the same creative impact were they small. More pixels with higher bit depth and less noise in better bodies fronted by superior lenses = more creative freedom, control and potential.

    .
    Yes Tim, but the A7r wouldn't have helped Burtynsky or Becker or Kander, more to my point it wouldn't help Elliot Erwitt either!

    We absolutely agree about more pixels, but 50% more isn't, (for me at least) enough temptation to subscribe to a system which currently relies entirely on non native lenses. 35 f2.8. Pshaw!

    Subscribing to technological advances doesn't oblige you to drop everything you know and love for the next new step.

    All the best

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    None of which fit the palm of your hand

    Once again we drag out the philosophical chestnuts ... "It's not the gear, it's the photographer behind the gear" ... (odd analogy on a thread where the OP is rejecting a $2,400 piece of gear in favor of a $7,000 one ) ... and the ever favorite "Infinite possibilities that stifles creativity story", same as the "Confines of a chess board story".

    What that has to do with advancing technology that allows one to better capture content (the personal creative variable) in ways not possible before escapes me. What if content can be better captured in places, or situations not possible before?

    - Marc
    I do scientific imaging and I am all for imaging breakthroughs. But the A7r is not a breakthrough. What most people are using it for, by the examples that are being posted, is the same thing most people photograph. So in the context of general photography, I agree with Jono that this is just another camera in a long line of cameras you can buy today that are going to produce excellent results. If you don't have a FF camera and this floats your boat, then buy one. If you have a FF camera you like, then the reason to buy gets unclear. If you have a smaller format and really like it, no reason to get these cameras either. This is certainly not a camera that can take pictures are not possible by other existing cameras.

    So Marc, as a former art director, which was more important, the photographer's book or their equipment list? I mean, if it is not the photographer… The argument which you seem not to understand is that skill is an important element in an art form. A good photographer understands the limitation in a system and uses them to advantage or controls the situation. Would you ever hire a photographer that blames his tools? Will you sell your M9 because the A7R is "better"? And don't you want to get away from such limited systems as rangefinders--there are so much "better" camera tech than that?

    Marc, this is not an either/or discussion. Gear and the photographer go hand in hand. I just think the overemphasis on gear making the image is strange. Unfortunately, when anyone tries to broaden the topic of photography beyond that, it comes to a grinding halt.
    Will

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yep, we should all go back to film, because then we'll do significant images ...

    While we are at it let's go back to no computers, no cell phones, 3 channels on the TV ... no wait ... no TV, back to radio ... no wait ... no radio, back to drums. No cars (filthy beasts anyway), back to horses ... no wait, they are filthy also ... back to just walking.



    - Marc

    BTW, I'll go back to film when they pry my digital camera from my cold dead fingers. No wait, if they are cold and dead I can't push the shutter button.
    So I guess you don't listen to the radio anymore and don't walk anymore.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes Tim, but the A7r wouldn't have helped Burtynsky or Becker or Kander, more to my point it wouldn't help Elliot Erwitt either!

    We absolutely agree about more pixels, but 50% more isn't, (for me at least) enough temptation to subscribe to a system which currently relies entirely on non native lenses. 35 f2.8. Pshaw!

    Subscribing to technological advances doesn't oblige you to drop everything you know and love for the next new step.

    All the best
    Well it might have done: at a stretch, an A7r file with careful handling could print to 1.2 metres. I would not like to see the results of that from a 25MP camera (I have, and that's why I like 36mp or 60 or 80 preferably for this sort of work). But as you say the limitation of available lenses is a real factor, thug even for the D800E, many lenses that used to be great, aren't!

    As for dropping, no, never, every building needs a foundation - but sometimes it benefits from a glittering cupola too!
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    A good photographer understands the limitation in a system and uses them to advantage or controls the situation.
    I am sorry but this is just plain wrong. So wrong I can't even be bothered to apply a reductio ad absurdam to it, because that should be obvious.

    It is merely an explanation of the magic a good photographer weaves when he turns a technical sow's ear into a creative silk purse - but it doesn't mean that if he was given silk to start with, he couldn't make a better purse.
    Last edited by tashley; 27th November 2013 at 13:30.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...
    This morning I did a series of tripod shots ...
    You own a tripod? I'm shocked. ;-)

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You own a tripod? I'm shocked. ;-)

    G
    I've got a monopod too :sleep006:

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Cheers!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I do scientific imaging and I am all for imaging breakthroughs. But the A7r is not a breakthrough. What most people are using it for, by the examples that are being posted, is the same thing most people photograph. So in the context of general photography, I agree with Jono that this is just another camera in a long line of cameras you can buy today that are going to produce excellent results. If you don't have a FF camera and this floats your boat, then buy one. If you have a FF camera you like, then the reason to buy gets unclear. If you have a smaller format and really like it, no reason to get these cameras either. This is certainly not a camera that can take pictures are not possible by other existing cameras.

    So Marc, as a former art director, which was more important, the photographer's book or their equipment list? I mean, if it is not the photographer… The argument which you seem not to understand is that skill is an important element in an art form. A good photographer understands the limitation in a system and uses them to advantage or controls the situation. Would you ever hire a photographer that blames his tools? Will you sell your M9 because the A7R is "better"? And don't you want to get away from such limited systems as rangefinders--there are so much "better" camera tech than that?

    Marc, this is not an either/or discussion. Gear and the photographer go hand in hand. I just think the overemphasis on gear making the image is strange. Unfortunately, when anyone tries to broaden the topic of photography beyond that, it comes to a grinding halt.
    Not really all that strange if you consider this is a Brand name, gear oriented thread ... on a forum that is primarily broken down by Brand names ... so what did you expect? Besides, what does trotting out Chestnuts about it being the photographer, not the camera and other related tired old platitudes have to do with any salient point about creatively making images?

    Saying that "I do not understand the element of skill in an art form" made me chuckle. I've spent my entire life mastering the skills needed to create visual ideas and bring them to fruition. From drawing and painting, to the plethora of skills required to succeed as an illustrator, Designer, Art Director, and a Chief Creative Director (in that order). You Sir, do not know the half of it. In my lifetime, technology roared through my industry like a Tsunami. Photography is just another extension of that.

    In fact, "skill" seems a good part of why Jono made his decision ... for what he does, he feels skillful with his rangefinder, and I totally understand that. I feel that way about rangefinders also.

    However, I did try the A7R ... for one thing there are only two 36 meg FF choices right now, and I do not want to lug around a DSLR brick the rest of my life. So, the first thing I did was put a few favorite M lenses on it and shot something in conditions I know for a fact the M9 and M240 would be hard pressed to handle ... but a condition I've faced numerous times while making photographs. So, now there is a tool that extends my creative reach like nothing before it.

    What I do have some confidence in is my own ability to become skillful with most any tool because I feel driven to use it to ... make photographs ... the skill part isn't Rocket Science it is persistence and practice ... and if it is too much, there is most certainly something else that won't be. That's the great thing about choice.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Boy do I feel badly for Sony.

    For years so many have complained about digital cameras.

    Too big.

    Too bulky.

    Too heavy.

    Too much noise at high ISO's.

    Too many buttons.

    No FF.

    Not enough dials.

    Too much moire.

    Not enough detail.

    The files are too small.

    The files are too big.

    Not rugged enough.

    Not weather sealed.

    No Digital M.

    The lenses have casts to them.

    Not enough bokeh.

    Great bokeh. Not sharp enough.

    55mm? Who needs that size?? (Common complaint for the new Nikon f1.4)

    Too expensive.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    So Sony listens to all these issues and comes out with the 24mp A7 and 36mp A7r. Both in smallish bodies about the size of Nikon FM or Olympus OM-1 from the film era that so many have yearned for.

    No mirror? No problem, they've got a super sharp, non-tearing (for once) EVF.

    LCD? It flips out for you for crazy angles.

    Dials: De minimus

    Menus? Refreshingly logical (I think).

    No split image? Peaking beats that.

    Lenses? Okay here's Sony kinda blundered coming out with a drool-worthy camera but not having any optics initially to go with it. The lenses they do have planned are kept deliberately slow to keep them small (FF still requires beefy optical designs if you want impressive light gathering unfortunately). Zeiss to the rescue with a (slowish but still quite sharp apparently) 35mm f2.8 and a blazingly sharp 55mm f1.8 to be followed by the f4 24-70mm zoom. Meanwhile adapters have gotten experimenters out with their closets full of old glass to try out.

    High ISO? So far things look great up to ISO 6400--something NO FILM could ever achieve even with Kodak's revolutionary T-technology (or whatever it was) at film's peak.

    Shutter noise? Okay, some. But more along the lines of a Hasselblad-like 'shluck'.

    AF issues? Not lighting fast. But fast enough. Okay maybe not fast enough to use for peak basketball shots or Super G skiing but certainly useable for other sports.

    Meanwhile I'm seeing threads with comments like:

    "I love it but..."

    "Great cam...but...

    "My other cameras are fine..."

    "Can't use anything wider than 28mm.

    "Too loud for museums! Shutter's too loud"

    "Too loud for street photography? (Seriously even in NYC?)

    "It's all about the photographer. Not the equipment.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    In all honesty I've really enjoyed these threads.

    But I can only imagine Sony engineers now going through their cabinets looking for their hair kari knives.

    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Hair Kari? I'm not sure they'd be cutting their own hair at this stage
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