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Thread: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    K-H,
    That is a wonderful display of what this camera can do. I am amazed at the way it handles lights.

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    K-H,
    That is a wonderful display of what this camera can do. I am amazed at the way it handles lights.

    Dave

    Many thanks Dave. I agree.
    The Sony A7R with Leica Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 or with APO-Telyt-R 280/4 are capable of stunning performance with lights as well.
    One has to be careful not to blow the highlights. I also had to adjust the WB as it was mixed lighting.

    Here is a link to the full size version: http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i.../i-cD3HjPr.jpg
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 5th January 2014 at 11:51.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Here are two shots and their crops from A7R + APO-Extender-R 1.4x + APO-Telyt-R 280/4.
    First WO at f/4, then stopped down a tad at f/5.6. Here we go.







    It was cold and a little windy when I took the shots across a canyon between two mesas.
    I tried to focus on the word DIRECTV.
    At f/4 I see vignetting that has nicely cleared up at f/5.6.
    I also think I can detect a little more DOF at f/5.6.

    Is this the kind of sharpness performance one would expect when adding an APO-Extender-R 1.4x to an APO-Telyt-R 280/4 on A7R?
    How would this lens/extender combination perform on an M240 in a similar situation?
    Do you think there is any shutter shake visible in the images? If yes, how do you notice it?


    I appreciate your feedback. TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Here are two shots and their crops from A7R + APO-Extender-R 1.4x + APO-Telyt-R 280/4.
    First WO at f/4, then stopped down a tad at f/5.6. Here we go.







    It was cold and a little windy when I took the shots across a canyon between two mesas.
    I tried to focus on the word DIRECTV.
    At f/4 I see vignetting that has nicely cleared up at f/5.6.
    I also think I can detect a little more DOF at f/5.6.

    Is this the kind of sharpness performance one would expect when adding an APO-Extender-R 1.4x to an APO-Telyt-R 280/4 on A7R?
    How would this lens/extender combination perform on an M240 in a similar situation?
    Do you think there is any shutter shake visible in the images? If yes, how do you notice it?


    I appreciate your feedback. TIA.
    It was windy?

    What shutter speed was used? The detail on the left looks marginally more acute, but the exposures are ever so slightly different, so it is hard to tell.

    Why not rent a M240 and EVF + the R adapter and compare side-by-side? The M 240 shutter is most certainly more dampened. Question will be, can you even focus such a demanding combination that finely with their EVF? That is the $8,500 question.

    I wonder why your long lens image previous to this one was successful, and you feel this one is not? How did the shutter speeds differ?

    What is the highest meg camera you have used this lens/extender on? You may be in new and more demanding territory here.

    I'll repeat something again: I've shot with big time photographers and cinematographers ... inside on reinforced concrete floors using camera stands that required 3 men to set up, and when they went to shoot EVERYONE had to stop walking, or moving around to avoid blur ... and even then, we would not move on to the next shot or set-up until the tech guys said it was clean.

    Minute camera or subject movement is THE major cause of pixel peeping blur. I don't even trust a 2 sec delay ... for anything that critical I use 10 sec to let the camera settle after pressing the shutter, or use a remote, or a long release if possible (short ones can even cause movement).

    When I had just a 90mm on the A7r, I looked at the 7.2X mag view and just touched the camera and the image jumped around like it was a 500mm ... can't imagine a really long lens.

    If we insist on pixel level scrutiny with high res digital, we have to up our game and stop trying to defy physics.

    It'll be interesting to see how the 24-70/4 with IS fares on this camera.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    EXIF reads:
    F4.0 -> 1/400 sec, ISO 50 (left)
    F5.6 -> 1/160 sec, ISO 50 (right)
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Hi K-Hawinkler,

    Thank you for this very interesting comparison : would it be possible to get a 100% crop of the E-M1 results as well ? I don't see much difference between the two shots at the reduced size you have shown. And the fact one can more easily shoot the MFT system handheld is a big plus.

    I own an E-M5 plus an EOS-6D and was first interested by getting an A7 to finally be able to shoot my Zeiss Contax G lenses at their real focal length. I did even sell my M6 and 35mm Sumicron in order to fund that (yet kept the 50mm F1.4 and 90mm F2 both pre-aspheric). But the short flange distance have the effect I feared when using wide angle RF lenses. So this has considerable tamed my enthusiasm.

    So for the moment, I have an appreciable credit at a brick and mortar camera shop, but have put everything on hold.

    Don't you fear that your E-M1 will remain on a shelf now that you have an A7r ?




    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Research Greenhouse.

    Olympus OM-D E-M1 + 75-300/4.8-6.7 II @ f/5.1, ISO 200, 1/90 s handheld, FL in 35 mm film 200.



    Sony A7R + Leica Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 @ f/4.2, ISO 100, 1/125 on tripod, FL 200 mm.


    100% Crop @ f/8
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    EXIF reads:
    F4.0 -> 1/400 sec, ISO 50 (left)
    F5.6 -> 1/160 sec, ISO 50 (right)

    Thanks Bart. That's correct.
    Those were the settings on the lens.
    (I didn't bother to add the 1 f-stop for the 1.4x extender)

    I didn't notice any wind for the first shot, but did notice a wind gust for the second shot. Aside from the wind induced vibration is the overall performance what you would expect? Thanks again.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Bart. That's correct.
    Those were the settings on the lens.
    (I didn't bother to add the 1 f-stop for the 1.4x extender)

    I didn't notice any wind for the first shot, but did notice a wind gust for the second shot. Aside from the wind induced vibration is the overall performance what you would expect? Thanks again.
    So, the set up was a R to E adapter, 1.4X, and then the lens. Almost 400mm with a lot of connecting points. That'd be a mighty demanding set-up even if it were a straight 400mm.

    Have you ever considered a Wimberley head? I had a 400mm I couldn't get a tack shape image from until I got one of them. But maybe that was just me.

    Curious why you used ISO 50 which is a pulled speed, and not optimal? I think 50 is okay in the studio with very controlled light, but not so sure it is for ambient ... plus you could get the shutter speed up a bit.

    As to your question ... I wouldn't have a clue what to expect. I've never had the pleasure of using such a stellar long lens

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Hi K-Hawinkler,

    Thank you for this very interesting comparison : would it be possible to get a 100% crop of the E-M1 results as well ? I don't see much difference between the two shots at the reduced size you have shown. And the fact one can more easily shoot the MFT system handheld is a big plus.

    I own an E-M5 plus an EOS-6D and was first interested by getting an A7 to finally be able to shoot my Zeiss Contax G lenses at their real focal length. I did even sell my M6 and 35mm Sumicron in order to fund that (yet kept the 50mm F1.4 and 90mm F2 both pre-aspheric). But the short flange distance have the effect I feared when using wide angle RF lenses. So this has considerable tamed my enthusiasm.

    So for the moment, I have an appreciable credit at a brick and mortar camera shop, but have put everything on hold.

    Don't you fear that your E-M1 will remain on a shelf now that you have an A7r ?

    Thanks Anna for your feedback and questions. Here are my answers.

    This is a 1024x1024 crop from the E-M1 image. I tried to match the colors with the A7R image.
    This image is a little brighter than the one from the A7R as I wanted to get a little closer to the glare I see with my own eyes.



    With regards to your last question, no I am not worried.
    I have a number of different cameras and use them for different purposes.
    The camera that will get less use is probably my Leica M9.
    But it's the only Leica and rangefinder I have ever owned. So, I'll keep it for good.
    And I continue to enjoy shooting it and will have it repaired, if forbid, it should develop a problem. Knock on wood!
    Although I had planned to get an M240, after a year of waiting I canceled my order.
    Too many compromises with the EVF focusing and inferior electronics changed my mind.
    Also its infrared filter doesn't seem quite strong enough to avoid any residual infrared contamination, same as with the M8, M9.
    I originally wanted the M240 more for my Leica R than my M lenses.
    I have never had an FF camera for my FF Leica R lenses and I didn't want to leitax them.

    So what do I use my cameras for? A7R and E-M1 for general photography.
    They are also great to hand out to other family members to use as P&S cameras.
    The A7R is now my general walk about camera.
    The E-M1 is my walk about for super tele lenses with the new 75-300 lens.
    As before my E-M5 I will also use the E-M1 for birding.
    It has better tracking than the E-M5.
    Even better tracking has my Nikon D800E with the new AF-S 80-400 VR lens.
    But it's too heavy for walking around.
    So, I use it mostly for hummingbirds around the house or close to my car.
    I like the images the M9 produces, so I will continue to use it for family and landscape shots.

    What makes the E-M5 and E-M1 so desirable is their IBIS IMHO.
    And that also works with all my Leica M, R, V and Nikkor lenses.

    Digital cameras in a way are consumables that get replaced fairly often.
    Too often, considering their high cost, but nevertheless.
    So my oldest son now has for good my Nikon D300 and D3 and some lenses like the 70-200 VR.
    I don't miss the D300, but I do miss the D3 with its great UI and 11 FPS.
    As I didn't use it much I didn't want to keep it and it's being used a lot now in capable hands.
    I have kept however my Nikon D200 and even had its shutter repaired.
    If I am not mistaken it's the last or one of the last CCD sensors in a Nikon DSLR.
    It makes great 12 MP images. I particularly like the colors it produces.
    But I am most impressed with the colors from the A7R!
    The E-M5 with some lenses I will give probably very soon to my other son.
    I use my E-M1 basically with two Olympus lenses, both are new, the 12-40/2.8 and the 75-300 II.
    Of course, I also use Leica and manual Nikkor lenses on it.

    Some of the FF lenses I have I consider my real treasures.
    And most of them work well on the A7R, all of them well on the E-M1.
    For example I can focus precisely my Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2 WO on the A7R.
    But not on the D800E as the green focus confirmation dot is not accurate enough.
    Luckily my Leica WATE 16-18-21/4 works very well with LCCs on the A7R, no corner smearing I can detect.
    Together with the Leica 28-90/2.8-4.5, Nikkor 28/1.4, Minolta 24-35/3.5, FE 35/2.8 and Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2
    I am well covered on the A7R from super WA to normal focal length lenses.
    Still need to evaluate for example my Nikkor 14-24/2.8 lens.
    I probably will add the FE 55/1.8 to have another AF lens for the A7R.
    I am really impressed by the performance of the FE 35/2.8 and expect similarly from the FE 55/1.8.

    Short tele lenses seem all fine on the A7R.
    However, some adapters were built for the NEX APS-C sensors and don't work for all lenses on the FF A7R.
    For example my Phigment adapter for M lenses only, though great on NEX cameras, vignettes on 90 and 135 mm M lenses.
    It's great to use on my NEX-5N and NEX-7 as it adds some missing UI features.
    On the A7R some of those those features are already built into the camera.

    Longer/tele lenses up to 560 mm or even longer create their own challenges on the A7R.
    For example heavy vignetting or shutter vibrations if one isn't careful.
    I think I got a handle on the shutter vibrations in Landscape but not in Portrait orientation.
    I will attempt another stab on the latter once I have an RRS L-plate.

    I find image quality-wise no other tele lenses I have tried can match the performance of my Leica R lenses.
    Both the Leica APO-Telyt-R 280/4 and Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 offer unique characteristics.
    I will try to avoid shooting them with extenders until I know by how much the latter decrease image quality.
    And decrease the extenders do. For extra reach I prefer to shoot the Leica APO-Telyt-R 280/4 on my NEX-7.
    This yields a 420 mm 135 film equivalent focal length. The following 20 mile shot was taken with that combination.
    I prefer the B&W version of the image as colors always suffer when shot through 20 miles of hazy air.



    This is a 100% crop from the upper right.


    One can clearly distinguish between burned and unburned forest areas, as well as between aspen and fur trees.
    Also, one can clearly see the still standing tree trunks and their shadows in the evening sun.

    Unfortunately I have to send my 105-280/4.2 lens in to have it adjusted as it misses by a smidge focusing to infinity.

    I hope I answered your questions. Many thanks again for your interest and feedback.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 6th January 2014 at 13:46.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Many thanks Marc for your feedback.
    I appreciate that very much, in particular after having read some of your illuminating contributions on LUF with great interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    So, the set up was a R to E adapter, 1.4X, and then the lens. Almost 400mm with a lot of connecting points. That'd be a mighty demanding set-up even if it were a straight 400mm.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Have you ever considered a Wimberley head? I had a 400mm I couldn't get a tack shape image from until I got one of them. But maybe that was just me.
    Yes, I have, but only for birding.
    So far I have managed to get what I thought were sharp images from even longer lenses with APS-C and MFT mirror-less cameras.
    However, in light of the A7R I will have to look at this topic anew. Maybe I wasn't critical enough.
    Tomorrow I expect to receive a heavier aluminum tripod so that I can use a long lens support attachment on it.
    I can't use the attachment on my sturdy Gitzo tripod as tightening the clamp will crack the carbon fiber leg of the tripod.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Curious why you used ISO 50 which is a pulled speed, and not optimal? I think 50 is okay in the studio with very controlled light, but not so sure it is for ambient ... plus you could get the shutter speed up a bit.
    Excellent points. I agree.
    I was trying to shoot a number of different ISO values, starting with the pulled ISO 50.
    But it was very cold, including the windchill factor, and I gave up after this.
    Typically I would not have posted these images, but I was very interested to learn how other folks assess extenders on the 280/4 lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    As to your question ... I wouldn't have a clue what to expect. I've never had the pleasure of using such a stellar long lens

    - Marc
    Indeed, a pleasure it is and I feel very privileged having acquired some of these special lenses recently.

    Thanks again for your help.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    K-H
    Your continued a7R/lens testing is most appreciated. The one shot of the tower with a non Leica and non Sony was impressive for me to see. I am trying to figure out why it was so sharp.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Thanks Lou, much appreciated.
    Is this the shot you have in mind?
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/558035-post126.html post #126



    This was shot with Olympus OM-D E-M1 + Olympus M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 75-300mm f/4.8-6.7 II Lens in AF.
    The distance was less than 100 yards instead of almost a mile away.

    The camera used, the E-M1, has incredibly capable IBIS, that is In-Body-Image-Stabilization.
    As it has a micro four thirds sensor the lens has the FOV of a 135 film equivalent 600 mm lens.
    And since the previous model, namely the E-M5, these Olympus cameras have finally state of the art sensors, provided there is plenty of light for fast movements.
    For shooting static objects in low light I typically use base ISO and up to 1 second exposure time handheld. The E-M1's IBIS is that good!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Anna for your feedback and questions. Here are my answers.

    This is a 1024x1024 crop from the E-M1 image. I tried to match the colors with the A7R image.
    This image is a little brighter than the one from the A7R as I wanted to get a little closer to the glare I see with my own eyes.



    With regards to your last question, no I am not worried.


    What makes the E-M5 and E-M1 so desirable is their IBIS IMHO.
    And that also works with all my Leica M, R, V and Nikkor lenses.
    Many thanks for the E-M1 100% crop and for all your detailed answers. It is always helpful to see how other people use their cameras and what motivated their decision.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Not sure if this is the right place to ask (but didn't want to start a new thread) -- is there any way to frame alternative aspect ratios through the EVF on the A7/A7r (thinking specifically about 4x5/8x10, coming from a background of shooting large format and 6x7)? One reason I never upgraded from 5D Mk. II to Mk. III is that one can no longer change the focussing screen and I have a Brightscreen with 4x5 crop marks in my Mk. II that is pretty critical to the way I shoot. Thanks -- really enjoying seeing what everyone is doing with these Sonys!
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Smith View Post
    Not sure if this is the right place to ask (but didn't want to start a new thread) -- is there any way to frame alternative aspect ratios through the EVF on the A7/A7r (thinking specifically about 4x5/8x10, coming from a background of shooting large format and 6x7)? One reason I never upgraded from 5D Mk. II to Mk. III is that one can no longer change the focussing screen and I have a Brightscreen with 4x5 crop marks in my Mk. II that is pretty critical to the way I shoot. Thanks -- really enjoying seeing what everyone is doing with these Sonys!
    You can put the 6w x 4h grid up on the screen/viewfinder when shooting. If you framed off center you could precisely frame 5x4 but off center then just shift over. Nothing else to do. In the menu it is: "Gearwheel>1>GridLine>square"

    Robert

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Thank you Robert! That just might be a solution, was thinking of renting one soon from lensrentals.com and will give it a try.

    Best,
    --Geoff

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    This shot just for fun ...



    Now the only blur I can see is coming from the dials moving ...



    | leica vario-elmarit-r 1:2.8-4.5/28-90 asph |
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Thanks Bart. Very funny!
    A great building and a terrific shot.
    I think that Sony A7R - Leica Vario-Elmarit-R combo works well together,
    whether handheld or on a tripod with the Novoflex ASTAT-NEX, even on my light Gitzo Traveler.

    BTW, did you get around to use your A7R on a bigger longer heavier R lens?
    I am curious about your observations.
    TIA.

    I just ordered the Milich L-plate.
    It should arrive well before I will receive my RRS one.
    The latter are already out of stock.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Bart. Very funny!
    A great building and a terrific shot.
    I think that Sony A7R - Leica Vario-Elmarit-R combo works well together,
    whether handheld or on a tripod with the Novoflex ASTAT-NEX, even on my light Gitzo Traveler.

    BTW, did you get around to use your A7R on a bigger longer heavier R lens?
    I am curious about your observations.
    TIA.

    I just ordered the Milich L-plate.
    It should arrive well before I will receive my RRS one.
    The latter are already out of stock.
    Yes, that R2890 is pretty good with the A7R.
    A bit nose heavy perhaps, but it does a good job.

    Well, using the R70180 and 2xT/C with the A7R proved to be too much of a challenge for my rig.
    Up till now every time I went out it was just too windy to get a steady shot.
    It's that fine vibration that spoils it and I wonder if the result could have been better when I had used it hand-held.
    Worked fine with the E-M5 and E-M1, but then those have IBIS ...
    For now I'm waiting for the courier to bring me a more stable solution and then I'll try again the long lens.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Yes, that R2890 is pretty good with the A7R.
    A bit nose heavy perhaps, but it does a good job.

    Well, using the R70180 and 2xT/C with the A7R proved to be too much of a challenge for my rig.
    Up till now every time I went out it was just too windy to get a steady shot.
    It's that fine vibration that spoils it and I wonder if the result could have been better when I had used it hand-held.
    Worked fine with the E-M5 and E-M1, but then those have IBIS ...
    For now I'm waiting for the courier to bring me a more stable solution and then I'll try again the long lens.

    Kind regards.

    Bart thanks.
    If your shutter speed is high enough one also could try steadying the lens on a tripod with a hand during exposure.
    That certainly helped in my case. That is one hand firm on camera, the other on top of lens above ball head.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Bart thanks.
    If your shutter speed is high enough one also could try steadying the lens on a tripod with a hand during exposure.
    That certainly helped in my case. That is one hand firm on camera, the other on top of lens above ball head.
    LOL not sure what would be worse - my hands are not that steady you know ...
    Even when standing upright, I'm swaying like a (drunken) sailor.
    Quite a challenge getting something in focus, let alone keeping it in focus.

    But seriously, I'll give your suggestion a try next time, K-H.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    A lot of landscape pros use this 'hands on tripod and camera' technique with all sorts of cameras, such as very lightweight 4x5 rigs and medium format cameras. It helps both camera-induced blur and fights wind-induced blur, especially for intermediate shutter speeds around 1/15 to 1/60s. A good degree of downforce helps stabilise the tripod also, just by leaning on it firmly. It's much harder to jerk the camera body on shutter release when it is firmly attached to a well-anchored tripod.

    Another solution is a tied off loop of 10mm shock cord (from outdoor/rock climbing shops) hooked onto the tripod's centre column hook or below the head. Most of us use the same tripod height for most shots more or less, so you can prepare one or more loops; then simply step into the loop with your shoe or boot for a constant and strong downforce for the whole setup. I use this with a light Gitzo CF pod, it works very well and the loops are ultra light and small to stash away. I figure on using the 'loop anchor' or 'lean on' technique plus 'hand holding upon release' most times with the a7r.

    Hope this helps. cheers.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Philip,

    Thank you so much. That's excellent advice.
    I think at one time I read about this technique but then forgot about it!
    Many thanks for the refresher short course!
    Much appreciated. I will get that cord.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    K-H,


    ..................Not Good, in fact this example looks almost completely useless, because of the hinges:
    http://www.sunwayfoto.com.cn/uploadf...tor/TLS-00.jpg

    Much better:
    Manfrotto 359 Long Lens Support (MN359-1) - Wex Photographic.................................
    ...

    I'm trying to resist any interest in the Sony; I suppose that I'm reading and responding to this thread is a bad sign .
    I thought I'd mention that I've used the Sunwayfoto very effectively to stabilize a 600mm lens; I did modify it a bit and will add the Manfrotto (mounted on the portrait plate) if I need shutter speeds around 1/15s. Pretty much rock solid, but makes changing camera position much more complex. One more comment: I do keep my hands and body weight pressed against the camera, a technique I was forced to learn with the Pentax 67.

    Tom


    _IGP1179 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
    Last edited by tsjanik; 16th January 2014 at 07:37.
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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    [QUOTE=tsjanik;561917]
    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post

    I'm trying to resist any interest in the Sony; I suppose that I'm reading and responding to this thread is a bad sign .

    You and me both!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    [QUOTE=D&A;561921]
    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post


    You and me both!

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi Dave,

    I don't have a collection of lenses for the Sony, so not so tempting for me. I hope this sensor appears in a Pentax body soon, then I'll be on the pre-order list.

    Tom
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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    [QUOTE=tsjanik;561917]
    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    K-H,


    ..................Not Good, in fact this example looks almost completely useless, because of the hinges:
    http://www.sunwayfoto.com.cn/uploadf...tor/TLS-00.jpg

    Much better:
    Manfrotto 359 Long Lens Support (MN359-1) - Wex Photographic.................................

    I'm trying to resist any interest in the Sony; I suppose that I'm reading and responding to this thread is a bad sign .
    I thought I'd mention that I've used the Sunwayfoto very effectively to stabilize a 600mm lens; I did modify it a bit and will add the Manfrotto (mounted on the portrait plate) if I need shutter speeds around 1/15s. Pretty much rock solid, but makes changing camera position much more complex. One more comment: I do keep my hands and body weight pressed against the camera, a technique I was forced to learn with the Pentax 67.

    Tom


    _IGP1179 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
    Very very übercool setup, Tom.
    However, do you reckon that Sunwayfoto long lens support proves to be enough rigid to combat the A7R's shutter slap ?
    It seems a bit awkward to me and even far from effective, but like to hear your opinion to ease my doubts.
    I'll be using Sunwayfoto's DYH-66I levelling base soon for my tiny-in-comparison R70180 lens.

    Thanks for the picture of your rig.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    Hi Tom,

    I agree with Bart. Cool indeed. Many, many thanks for your feedback.
    Did you ever feel it necessary to add the Manfrotto 359 Long Lens Support to your setup? TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post

    Very very übercool setup, Tom.
    However, do you reckon that Sunwayfoto long lens support proves to be enough rigid to combat the A7R's shutter slap ?
    It seems a bit awkward to me and even far from effective, but like to hear your opinion to ease my doubts.
    I'll be using Sunwayfoto's DYH-66I levelling base soon for my tiny-in-comparison R70180 lens.

    Thanks for the picture of your rig.

    Kind regards.
    Bart, the Sunwayfoto appears flimsy because of all the joints/hinges, but each joint has a tightening knob, so when all is tightened, this assembly is quite rigid. As to the A7R, I don't know; the 645D has some shutter issues when using long lenses and the body is not attached directly to the head - hence this contraption I assembled. It's not always 100% effective, but much better than no additional support.

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Hi Tom,

    I agree with Bart. Cool indeed. Many, many thanks for your feedback.
    Did you ever feel it necessary to add the Manfrotto 359 Long Lens Support to your setup? TIA.
    K-H, Yes I do add the Manfrotto at speeds around 1/60 -1/2s. Although the pictured support is quite rigid it can still pivot around the single point of attachment - the ball head; the Manfrotto prevents that, but makes it more difficult to reposition the camera.

    Here's a cropped shot using the 600mm at 1/13s; some blur from movement of the bird:


    _IGP1495 by tsjanik47, on Flickr

    Another using the 600mm and a 1.4x; not much detail here but what there is, is quite sharp:


    Mark Rothko appears in Lake Erie by tsjanik47, on Flickr
    Last edited by tsjanik; 16th January 2014 at 06:21. Reason: the usual - typo
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    Re: Shutter Shock at 784 mm in Portrait Mode!

    Thanks Tom, those are terrific shots.
    Stunning indeed!
    Your lens is outstanding!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Shocking ...
    Glad I bought the A7r instead of the M240 ...

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    A shame the Sony chooses to bury their heads in the sand..... That said I have yet to see any FPS camera that doesn't exhibit some shutter shake at some level. Nature of the beast....

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    If we really want to look at shutter vibration, we should do some tests on the Pentax 6x7. Even with the mirror lock-up function, the shutter creates a great deal of vibration.
    Here is the kicker: Somehow, I was able to create sharp photographs with it.
    Go figure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Shocking ...
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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Bart, very funny! The message I am getting is very simple.

    After eliminating the mirror the mechanical shutter needs to be replaced by an electronic one.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonf View Post
    If we really want to look at shutter vibration, we should do some tests on the Pentax 6x7. Even with the mirror lock-up function, the shutter creates a great deal of vibration.
    Here is the kicker: Somehow, I was able to create sharp photographs with it.
    Go figure!

    Well, better lucky than smart! Certainly my preference!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Shocking ...
    Glad I bought the A7r instead of the M240 ...

    Kind regards.

    Me too! Excellent educational choice!

    The question now is, how to spend the money saved?
    Ah, my choice: nMP from Apple!

    I am considering the fully loaded 6-CPU version.
    However, that is approaching the M240 price!
    Oh well.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Damn, his award-winning photo of a bolt was ruined, RUINED, I tell you.

    He has officially left the realm of absurd and is now entering the land of insane.

    We know there clearly are shutter movement impacts on sharpness in the a7r and apparently the M240 as well. But what I don't understand is why most people seem to feel it is a failing of the camera? Yes, ideally, there would be less of an impact on the image (or none), but shutter and mirror movement has been a specific issue with cameras since they were added as 'features'. This is not new and most camera test reports back in the film days would include information on the shutter speeds to avoid for this reason.

    It seems that we have forgotten that, and now presume that this problem is something to bitch and moan about, call the company and complain about, and whatever else.

    Far better is to do what K-H has done; test the camera and lens with the mounting arrangements he intends to use and learn how to overcome the issue with good shooting technique.

    This camera is simply too light on it's own to dampen the shutter. When the camera design moves to a fully electronic shutter, this will probably be an issue of the past, but until then, some precautions are in order.


    ----Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm
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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Thanks Michael.

    Now that everybody's sensibilities have been heightened to this shutter vibration issue I think it's only a question of time until the transition to all electronic shutters will be completed. That will presumably happen once the technical challenges have been solved at economical cost, also for high MP sensors.

    Personally I am looking forward to that day!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    Damn, his award-winning photo of a bolt was ruined, RUINED, I tell you.

    He has officially left the realm of absurd and is now entering the land of insane.

    We know there clearly are shutter movement impacts on sharpness in the a7r and apparently the M240 as well. But what I don't understand is why most people seem to feel it is a failing of the camera? Yes, ideally, there would be less of an impact on the image (or none), but shutter and mirror movement has been a specific issue with cameras since they were added as 'features'. This is not new and most camera test reports back in the film days would include information on the shutter speeds to avoid for this reason.

    It seems that we have forgotten that, and now presume that this problem is something to bitch and moan about, call the company and complain about, and whatever else.

    Far better is to do what K-H has done; test the camera and lens with the mounting arrangements he intends to use and learn how to overcome the issue with good shooting technique.

    This camera is simply too light on it's own to dampen the shutter. When the camera design moves to a fully electronic shutter, this will probably be an issue of the past, but until then, some precautions are in order.


    ----Michael
    Michael, your comment well summarizes a school of thought. I must disagree. Of course all FP shutters vibrate. The problem is that some cameras - the A7r among them - shake unpredictably. Naturally, Sony look at the "all focal plane shutters are crap" argument and say "ours is no crappier". It would be more useful if comments on the internet give Sony positive incentive to fix what is a real problem, rather than an excuse not to fix it.

    I do not know Lloyd or his site but, OK, so it's a bolt. Makes no difference if it's a bolt or a moody landscape. If you are competent, whatever you image should be captured as well as it can be. If there is blur it should be because you want it there. Subject, composition, artistry all load on top of that basic competence. Know your tools. This unpredictable shutter vibration makes it harder to know the A7r. Once I get beyond the two lenses I have tested extensively, I am insecure because the camera may or may not degrade sharpness. I just want things to be easy.

    Shake bad. No shake good. Sony - you fix shake.

    I fully agree with your last paragraph.
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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Shake bad. No shake good. Sony - you fix shake.
    YUP...

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Michael, your comment well summarizes a school of thought. I must disagree. Of course all FP shutters vibrate. The problem is that some cameras - the A7r among them - shake unpredictably. Naturally, Sony look at the "all focal plane shutters are crap" argument and say "ours is no crappier". It would be more useful if comments on the internet give Sony positive incentive to fix what is a real problem, rather than an excuse not to fix it.



    I do not know Lloyd or his site but, OK, so it's a bolt. Makes no difference if it's a bolt or a moody landscape. If you are competent, whatever you image should be captured as well as it can be. If there is blur it should be because you want it there. Subject, composition, artistry all load on top of that basic competence. Know your tools. This unpredictable shutter vibration makes it harder to know the A7r. Once I get beyond the two lenses I have tested extensively, I am insecure because the camera may or may not degrade sharpness. I just want things to be easy.



    Shake bad. No shake good. Sony - you fix shake.



    I fully agree with your last paragraph.

    Lloyd is very rigorous in his testing. Reminds me of the rigorous testing done by hifi magazines, at least in days past. Lloyd's testing has as much to do with photography as hifi equipment magazines have to do with music. He LOVES testing cameras and lenses.. I hate it, with a passion. It's photographs that I love. I expect my equipment to work as advertised. I'll test it when new to verify it and it's almost a process distasteful enough to make me swear off new equipment.

    I've seen Lloyd's unmistakable, and repeatable demonstration of shake. He is the master of testing. I'll work around it. I'm not impressed with his attitude, he seems like a rather loutish fellow.


    www.fredmuellerphotography.com

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Cunim,

    I was making light on his moaning that he had a week's shooting ruined by camera shake...

    However, I suspect that he had not properly braced the camera to produce the level of performance he was expecting. If he had, he would not have the compromised images.

    It doesn't take much to do things to address this properly, but you need to do some testing to understand when to be applying more rigorous methods than a simple lens mount on an inadequate tripod, etc.

    You say that the shake is unpredictable? From what I have seen, it is consistently in a range of exposures duration that goes from about 1/15 to around 1/125 plus or minus. That feels pretty predictable to me.

    My point is that I would have been more surprised if there were NOT shutter shake issues in some range of shutter speeds without decent camera bracing. It's a case of accelerating and decelerating mass. What makes it worse (or more apparent) is probably two things: the low mass of the camera itself, and possibly an inexpensive shutter mechanism that doesn't use anything to help counteract the forces of the movement. In this respect, Sony should probably have worked harder to avoid the problem.

    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    I agree with those who state that pretty much all FP shutters cause some shake. This just isn't news.

    Those of us who shoot the Phase One DF, for example, know full well to avoid 1/10 to 1/60th/sec when using longer lenses. (Even with leaf shutters - the FP shutter still has to open). The Hasselblad 2000 I once owned had FP vibration at longer speeds.

    The only camera I own that seems truly vibration free is a Rollei 2.8 F - no moving parts at all except for a light leaf shutter in a relatively heavy body!

    Work around! It's much easier in this day of auto ISO than it was in the film era. And just for the record, I'm having no vibration problems with the a7r and M glass as long as I stay shorter than 1/60th.

    I have just got the EA4 Adapter which I will test with my A mount glass tomorrow. I suspect the mass of the ZA 24-70, for example, may provide different results.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    More about shutter shock and related stuff.

    Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. Post #4142

    Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. Post #4143

    It seems the story is more complicated and the proposed delay between closing the shutter and shooting an image might not solve the problem.

    I will continue with my approach to couple as much mass/inertia as necessary to the camera body itself and additionally dampen vibrations of the support structure, i.e. tripod, ballhead, and rail.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    K-H
    I keep revisiting here in hopes things have calmed down and there is a solution. Lost track of everything said here, but what if 1/250 would be a minimum shutter speed for outdoor shooting with the 19 to 180 range?

    Or is the a7 the answer due to shutter mechanism? Guy seems to have very nice shots with even wide r lenses on that camera, but did not catch shutter speeds he used.

    Also he seems to have been using no tripod, unless I misunderstood.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    If I recall correctly Guy (or someone else) said that it's more of a problem with lighter lenses meaning something like Leica M lenses. Also seems to be different shutter speed problems with different lenses, with problems mostly between 1/20 and 1/60 range.

    I think no probs reported with native lenses, so might be partially also about too much tolerances with current adapters?

    //Juha

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    I hit a shutter issue on a vertical shot with my Zeiss 135 at 1/50 th. I just readjusted to actually go slower.i think it is a partial issue with shutter vibration as it is with most FP shutter there seems to be a weak spot. But I also am going to call this a adapter issue as well. My Novaflex adapter is like a rock but metabones I had lose mounts and such which makes it separate from the body. Other than that things seem okay for the moment. The Leica R 280 seemed okay but with a 2x it was a issue. So we still need a firmware delay implemented to settle the bounce out. It's there. But it can be minimized some by changing shutter speeds using a good adapter and frankly this really is not a tripod issue but a balance issue on long lenses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

    Just did my first real "snapshots" with my A7R yesterday. Went out for a walk with the family and took the camera + 55/1.8 with me. At first glimpse the pictures turned out quite nice, so nothing to complain there. it was bloody cold, just -6C but the wind chill was the kind that gets to your bones.. not one single prob with the camera. Unlike my wife's old nex-5 - apparently the cold killed the lcd in it for good!

    Cloudy but bright due to snow & ice. Shot at manual with auto iso and lens wide open, shutter speeds around 1/3000.

    Quick 5 minute stab at the images with Aperture shows I'll need to work on color/wb some more.. reds seem a bit on the bright side and I need to figure out how to tame them.

    Also my old mb pro 13" will die woth those raws, despite the ssd + 8GB ram. Next try with the far more powerfull imac..

    Should probably try Lightroom also, though I only have Lr 4..

    Pictures later, should any of those be worthy of this forum ;-)

    //Juha
    Last edited by jlindstrom; 26th January 2014 at 21:33. Reason: typos
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