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Thread: Here we go again...

  1. #51
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go again...

    It's the hype.

    95% of the people believed it and now they're pissed.

    The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

    That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

    Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.

    You could say it's the consumers fault for being consumers. I've never seen so much hype over a camera and I'm totally over getting one now. (Although I am eyeing a 7s for the ISO performance - but even then there's no point shooting high iso if the images are all washed out anyway).

    I do think though that what Sony HAS done is to show that certain levels or technology are now available and this drives other manufacturers forward.
    Last edited by Chris Giles; 19th August 2015 at 01:12.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    It's the hype.

    95% of the people believed it and now they're pissed.

    The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

    That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

    Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.

    You could say it's the consumers fault for being consumers. I've never seen so much hype over a camera and I'm totally over getting one now. (Although I am eyeing a 7s for the ISO performance - but even then there's no point shooting high iso if the images are all washed out anyway).

    I do think though that what Sony HAS done is to show that certain levels or technology are now available and this drives other manufacturers forward.
    ^^^

    This is an example of what I was referring when I posted this:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/556...tml#post654828
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    ^^^

    This is an example of what I was referring when I posted this:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/556...tml#post654828


    Chris is a Pro who uses Canon. He is a "target" market for this cam as Sony people said. You may not like it but Sony may pay attention.

  4. #54
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I like the A7 again
    It seems to do really well - I would say though that the problems seen with these lenses are much more obvious when shooting at (or near) infinity (when the rear element is closest to the sensor).

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    What is really ironic is that while Sony totally ignores Leica, recent tests with the A7r2 show the WATE as the best UWA option available, with performance actually superior to the M246. The WATE beats the new CV 15 v3, which really surprised me:

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...77/12#13146713

    Think about that:
    A7r2 3k
    Used WATE 3.8k
    Batis 1300
    FE 35/2.8 650
    FE 55/1.8 650
    then some good long glass.

    For this kind of money one can put together a very good M kit, today, which is going to hold value better. Now many are not interested, I understand, but that's what makes a 700USD A7 and Kolari mod very attractive. 1100 USD and you are not far off the M240, with a body that loves, really loves, SLR glass, which is alot cheaper too.
    Well, I think Guy had it in his original rant - Sony ain't going to put any effort into making M lenses work well - why should they? Of course there are a few oddballs who want a FF mirrorless camera for shooting M lenses (I'm a proud member of this peculiar group) - but it's really unlikely that anyone is going to do this - Leica not only have a specially designed sensor - but firmware adjustments for colour cast and vignetting for all the lenses - who would (or should) bother to go to all this effort? What's become clear is that it certainly isn't going to happen by luck! The Kolari mod solves one side of the equation (the cover glass) but it still doesn't solve the issue with firmware adjustments.

    Of course some M lenses work really well (The WATE for instance also works really well on the A7 and A7ii). In the final analysis, you still do best with M lenses on an M camera, and that's unlikely to change in the near future.

    But this doesn't detract from the A7rii which is obviously a fantastic new camera - class leading and game changing. . . . . . .

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Chris is a Pro who uses Canon. He is a "target" market for this cam as Sony people said. You may not like it but Sony may pay attention.
    Well, as I said, alternate viewpoints are always welcome. But when someone begins a post stating that 95% of the people believed the "hype" are "pissed", it makes the rest of the post not worth reading. I haven't read too many angry posts from A7rII OWNERS. In fact, it seems pretty solidly favorable - surprisingly so, given the price of the camera.

    I agree it's a great thing for Sony to pay attention to user experiences. IMHO, the A7rII proves Sony HAS paid attention.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Well, as I said, alternate viewpoints are always welcome. But when someone begins a post stating that 95% of the people believed the "hype" are "pissed", it makes the rest of the post not worth reading. I haven't read too many angry posts from A7rII OWNERS. In fact, it seems pretty solidly favorable - surprisingly so, given the price of the camera.

    I agree it's a great thing for Sony to pay attention to user experiences. IMHO, the A7rII proves Sony HAS paid attention.
    Please don't take a post too seriously from me where stats are concerned. Any man and his dog will know that figure is a generalization. It's not like I'm privy to a secret set of data or anything.

    You could argue that out of all the photographers in the world only 5% actually know what they're doing or buying. Some would even say 0.01% - You could argue that on the surface, it only seems that 5% of the camera users in the world actually know, understand or value what dynamic range is.

    I didn't believe the hype, fact I wrote so much in my 5DSr review two weeks before the release of the A7rii. I'm talking about the Stan Lee true believers that got pulled in. Of which there were many. Admittedly they do tend to be on DPR for the most part. I am seeing a lot of turned opinions of facebook though, people I've known and worked with for years who took a chance on it to see what all the fuss was about.

    One even made an unboxing video (which was awesome) but now they aren't using it in mixed lighting due to silent shutter banding.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

    That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

    Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.
    Hmmm
    Well, with respect to the Canon AF compatibility - I guess this is the other side of the issue with M lenses - Why should Sony make an effort to sell other manufacturer's lenses? - if these things work it's a bonus, but there's no reason to criticise Sony for it.

    Interfaces and menus are definitely subjective - you like them or you don't, there's hardly a right or wrong (although granted, if you're a Canon user you're likely to prefer Canon interfaces). Decent flash systems - okay . . . but with cameras doing great 6400 ISO flash systems aren't quite the imperative that they used to be (at least, they aren't for lots of users, and I don't see that Sony have pretended to anything they don't deliver).

    Banding in silent mode and overheating I can't comment on, not having tried the camera, but it sounds like the sort of thing which is prone to being drastically exaggerated by those with vested interests in other systems. Certainly, I didn't find it an issue with the A7ii.

    The camera isn't for me either (but for different reasons) - but I don't feel hoodwinked, and I can see that for many many users it's a fantastic solution, and the native lens situation is improving all the time.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    but now they aren't using it in mixed lighting due to silent shutter banding.
    Are you talking about colour banding with fluorescents as this is a problem I have had with all the Sony A7's up till now, Yes it was worse with full electronic shutter (A7S) but it was still there with the A7 and A7s with electronic first shutter or even full mechanical shutter at shutter speeds above 1/90sec. Haven't tested yet if the A7rII is any better or worse. Anyway I believe this is problem in general with electronic shutters and as I said the A7s has it
    My Leica's don't suffer from this problem

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmm
    Well, with respect to the Canon AF compatibility - I guess this is the other side of the issue with M lenses - Why should Sony make an effort to sell other manufacturer's lenses? - if these things work it's a bonus, but there's no reason to criticise Sony for it.
    They gave an adapter (Leica M or Canon or Sony, etc) of choice for free in Australia with an A7/7r/7s.

    Leica wides don't work- Canon teles are iffy- Sony A mount lenses-which adapter?

    They should not make a camera for others' lenses, I agree.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Are you talking about colour banding with fluorescents as this is a problem I have had with all the Sony A7's up till now, Yes it was worse with full electronic shutter (A7S) but it was still there with the A7 and A7s with electronic first shutter or even full mechanical shutter at shutter speeds above 1/90sec. Haven't tested yet if the A7rII is any better or worse. Anyway I believe this is problem in general with electronic shutters and as I said the A7s has it
    My Leica's don't suffer from this problem
    No, it was at a tipi wedding in ambient light. There was some overhead fairy lights but they were very dull.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    No, it was at a tipi wedding in ambient light. There was some overhead fairy lights but they were very dull.
    Similar things happen with the A7s in silent shutter mode as well. It is least reliable when it is most needed. Works very well in daylight though.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    David, I don't dive into this stuff as much as many but I don't think the "hype" for this body was generated by Sony as much as by people from other systems looking at it as a economical way of using their glass on a body with some technological advancements. From what I remember the first info was at or near its announcement and it was not much more than stating what it had. It was the public that ran a flag up the pole and hysterically chanted its name into some sort of super camera. But I am old and my memory sucks...

    I have had this body since the 6th and it is performing better than my a99 for the purpose I bought it. I have yet to experience even one of the issues some are going to extremes to find. Then again I don't use or even need silent shutter or video. As far as the long exposure issue ... I have done night exposures at base ISO with lenr on to 30 sec and have yet to see a issue. I don't shoot solar systems as though I find them interesting there is little to no market for them where I am located.

    Bottom line I bought it as a replacement for my NEX7 as a light hike in scenic camera and it has exceeded my expectations. I don't use or own Canikon anything nor Leica so if their glass works or not on this body is of no concern to me. It is a tool I bought for a purpose and it does better than I had hoped for my needs and wants. I have not bought a digital camera body expecting it to be a do everything exceptionall body since my first dslr. I buy them like golf clubs meaning specific bodies for specific needs and I think Sony with the A7x line knows that and builds its bodies for specific needs as well which has been obvious. Will every body make every customer happy? Nope!!! And that is expected going in: will some hate things about a camera just to be haters or their expectations were unrealistic? Yup! Or will there be those who will never admit they spent considerable money on a product without doing enough personal research to determine if it meets their needs and wants but instead jumped on a hope and wish hype train and filled in? Of course!!!

    I buy a still camera to be a still camera... If I wanted a video camera I'd buy a video camera. I do not set unrealistic goals nor do I expect any product to work exceptionally outside its design intent goals. Ask me what I think of the a7rII and I would tell you it is a exceptional tool.... I literally laugh at people complaining about performance issues after 72 continuous 30 second exposures in the summer. Or video in a still camera that after 20 minutes of continuous use it overheats. I just shake my head and go out using this camera for what I bought it to do that was defined initially in the Sony release specs. If I was a video guy or a astrophotographer and experienced what some are noting I would send the body back knowing that it might not be the best tool for this purposes. Silent shutter banding? I have seen flor light banding in just about every digital I have owned at certain shutter speeds. Not experiencing this specific issue I don't know if it is the same or a new issue but then again like a astro or video guy if silent shutter is a need in mixed lighting then again this might be a deal breaker. I have yet to find the Swiss Army knife camera body in digital that does everything better than any other body out there. If it doesn't do what the buyer needed it to do then send it back but the absurd whining and complaining of functional issues on the extreme spec boundaries by some is as overhyped as many were initially going into the purchase.
    Last edited by Jim DE; 19th August 2015 at 04:33.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    I don't know why people would buy a camera because it worked well with other manufacturers' lenses. If they do, it is very naive of them to expect performance on par with the OEM bodies.

    I have always been looking for a small, compact camera that can do most of what I do with my Canon bodies and deliver the same if not better IQ. Needless to say, the lenses too would need to be smaller. If such a camera does appear on the market and is also able to use other third party lenses (albeit not perfectly), it is simply the icing on an already nice cake.

    To me, the A7 series from Sony did just that. Not perfect, for example it never made a good cup of coffee, but it did deliver on most of what it promised.

    I tried the Leica M system before the Sony came along. Bought the M9 and later the M240 as well, along with Leica and Zeiss lenses. Total expense - $20K. The Sony A7RII with equivalent lenses - $8900. IQ, ease of use, AF, versatility (primes vs zooms), fps, expandability (third party equipment), high ISO performance, all so much better with the Sony. My own comparison of sharpness, color, contrast, distortion showed me that a lot of the legendary Leica quality is hype too. The only down side with the Sony being the larger size of the lenses. But, overall satisfaction way higher.

    Everyone has their own needs and expectations. I am sure many here love their Leicas for various reasons. We all make mistakes, buying stuff that we later regret, I've done enough of that. However, sometimes it does work out.

    Right now, in terms of IQ and size, I can honestly say my A7RII with the Batis 25 is just about the best combination of lens and camera I've ever owned. Period.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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    Re: Here we go again...

    I guess this is a lot like altered computer phrase." Unsustanciated, unrealistic, customer hype going in yields unrealistic, irrational hype going out"

    We can expect nothing less......


    Dave, just so you know these statements have nothing to do with you or your review because I did not read yours or anyone else's once I saw it was another basic "witch hunt" to have to find something or anything wrong with this body no matter how absurd the criteria had to be taken to observe said issues.
    Last edited by Jim DE; 19th August 2015 at 05:12.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I buy a still camera to be a still camera... If I wanted a video camera I'd buy a video camera. I do not set unrealistic goals nor do I expect any product to work exceptionally outside its design intent goals. Ask me what I think of the a7rII and I would tell you it is a exceptional tool.... I literally laugh at people complaining about performance issues after 72 continuous 30 second exposures in the summer. Or video in a still camera that after 20 minutes of continuous use it overheats.
    I don't know about 72 continuous 30 second exposures . . . but a camera offering 4k video IS a video camera - and should be able to manage more than 20 minutes before it overheats - I know you don't need it (and nor do I), but if you have a feature, then it should work properly, and this camera is touting professional quality video

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Silent shutter banding? I have seen flor light banding in just about every digital I have owned at certain shutter speeds. Not experiencing this specific issue I don't know if it is the same or a new issue but then again like a astro or video guy if silent shutter is a need in mixed lighting then again this might be a deal breaker.
    It's not the same issue - if you look at Dave's sample, it was taken in low ambient lighting with fairy lights - and if you're shooting a wedding that kind of thing is a catastrophe (I know, I've done it). Lost shots are not alright . . . ever.

    Edit - having just read Greg's review (who took the image with the banding) - he says
    "Out of thousands of images I’ve only seen this once inside a teepee with lights running off a generator and only on one image. But it’s worth being aware of."
    doesn't mean it's okay, but it does put a rather more realistic light on the situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I have yet to find the Swiss Army knife camera body in digital that does everything better than any other body out there. If it doesn't do what the buyer needed it to do then send it back but the absurd whining and complaining of functional issues on the extreme spec boundaries by some is as overhyped as many were initially going into the purchase.
    It's not 'absurd whining' to expect it to perform properly within the quoted functionality - if you have a silent shutter it shouldn't trash images - or you should put a pretty strong warning in there to the effect. Neither of these issues are on the 'extreme spec boundaries' they're both core functionality, and they should work properly.

    On the other hand I realise that it's no deal breaker for you . . . . but it's still the case that these advertised features should work properly, and if (when) such things don't work on Canon cameras (or Nikon or Leica) then there is just the same kind of outcry.
    Last edited by jonoslack; 19th August 2015 at 06:05. Reason: reality check

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Jono, the absurd spec boundaries I am referring to are the long exposure noise and hot pixel issues. As I said I am not aware of the silent shutter banding but as you found once in 1000 shots is a very small occurance rate to say the least. Wouldn't you agree and with a gas generator as a power source for the lighting???

    I don't know what would be realistic time wise before a full frame sensor would overheat during continuous shooting but I will say this attaching microphones, monitors, sound units, and aux recorders to a still camera to make it as functional as a true video camera is like putting mag wheels and slicks on a VW beetle and expect to beat don Garlits funny car. I still say if one wants professional video buy a video camera and be done with it.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    No, it was at a tipi wedding in ambient light. There was some overhead fairy lights but they were very dull.

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    That is indeed very odd and looks more like a firmware problem or even a card issue (have seen similar things posted that turned out to be a write-toward issue) rather than a rolling shutter and florescent lighting as shown in these shots below with the A7s and electronic shutter.
    I know know how to avoid this and it is really no longer a problem

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    Last edited by Viramati; 19th August 2015 at 08:09.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    That is indeed very odd and looks more like a firmware problem rather than a rolling shutter and florescent lighting as shown in these shote below with the A7s and electronic shutter


    May be the SSS freezes the band? Banding with and without the SSS may give an answer?

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    Re: Here we go again...

    I think a feature like 'silent shutter' is very valuable in certain situations and combined with the high ISO capability of the A7RII I can see how it would be a great camera to take when you are in an indoor event where discretion is desirable.

    I am not likely to utilize the camera in such settings, and especially not professionally since I am not a pro. I can see though how it could be very important for wedding/concert photographers. I don't know much about the banding issue, but if as per the OP of the tepee image, this is just 'one image in thousands', then is it that a huge problem? Would it not be easily taken care of by reverting to the mechanical shutter, especially since the A7RII shutter sound is so much less intrusive than its predecessor?
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    No, it was at a tipi wedding in ambient light. There was some overhead fairy lights but they were very dull.
    That first pic shows a big problem — very strange — although it doesn't appear to be related to mixed lighting. I wonder what caused that? The fluorescent lighting problem shown in the other pics affects all digital cameras at shutter speeds above 1/60th or so due to the cycling of the lights. As far as I know, only Canon's 7D2 and 5Ds/sR have an anti-flicker feature designed to time the shutter precisely in a way that avoids the fluorescent lighting banding even at higher shutter speeds.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Event work I really shoot mostly at 1/60 or below with a flash. But I have seen this before with other cams as well. Not sure you can do much about it. It's a timing recycle issue with those lights.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    That first pic shows a big problem — very strange — although it doesn't appear to be related to mixed lighting. I wonder what caused that? The fluorescent lighting problem shown in the other pics affects all digital cameras at shutter speeds above 1/60th or so due to the cycling of the lights. As far as I know, only Canon's 7D2 and 5Ds/sR have an anti-flicker feature designed to time the shutter precisely in a way that avoids the fluorescent lighting banding even at higher shutter speeds.
    I agree I really wonder whether this 'one in a thousand' error is even related to the silent shutter and certainly not the mixed lighting. I know that effect in my shots is down to the cycle time of the lighting

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Could even be the SD card or the SD reader which I have seen screw up images before. Like to see more samples to find to the source or it could be just a electronic glitch. Hard to say
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    I can see in some applications this would definitely be a issue and for those who shoot in this environment would feel this was a deal breaker. I, like Guy, have seen the condition like the lower pics and it is just a matter of changing the shutter speed till you don't see this effect in your EVF (EVF a huge advantage here with this situation). The one studio I shoot in has flor daylight lights behind a diffuser for its product setup and 60 cycle banding has to be taken into account when setting up to shoot.

    The other issues like noise/hot pixels when turning off LENR(which was designed to counter these items because it was a known digital sensor issue) and losing DR after 70 continuous 30 sec exposures in a row to me are just conditions that are beyond the normal design intent of the camera. Temp shutdown after 20 minutes of continuous 4k video with a camera of this type is a spec I am not familiar with and don't know if this is within its spec parameters. I would think that the camera was designed more for stills and shooting short video clips than filming say a hockey game like a real video only camera. But that is just my opinion. Personally, my a7rII will never shoot 1 second worth of video, never shoot silent shutter (because I avoid people photos like the plague and my jetties and waves are not shutter noise sensitive), and if I shot astrophotography and was able to show the milky way here in the mid-atlantic region of the USA no one would believe it wasn't fake anyway as we can barely see stars at all in our night skies here (but if astrophotography was my thing I guess these issues would be a deal breaker).

    Once again... no camera does everything the best and one has to buy or not according to needs and wants.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Have not even tried video yet but to address the overheating issue. But in my mind that is designed to cut off after a certain period of time to protect the sensor and overheating. We need to remember this is a very compact camera and with all the electronics heat will build up fast. Like Phase backs when doing long exposures the heat will create noise. My guess Sony is doing this intentional to protect from overheating which will not only create noise but could damage the circuitry . They certainly do this with there flash units to cut off if it's going to overheat to protect itself. Obviously this answer needs to come from Sony itself but I would bet a dozen donuts on this being the answer.

    I guess the real question is this Are we expecting too much. Maybe , maybe not. I understand some of the dilemma with some folks reaction to these things but on the other hand when I bought a 50k dollar back , I did not get dancing girls to go with it either. I'm joking of course but heck I got really nothing for that 50k except a very expensive sensor in a little box.

    All relative of course but sometimes consumers think for 3200 dollars it should take out the garbage too. Yes we should get our monies worth but honestly I felt more ripped off by the A7r given its issues. Obviously we all have opinions on this and myself I expect some issues to pop up, now Sony needs to update firmware more frequently and pay attention to some of these complaints or issues that are obvious problems. That's what firmware is for and other OEMS are far better at this than Sony. They need to change this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  26. #76
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    Re: Here we go again...

    I want the camera that gives a full hot oil body massage and mixes/serves drinks....... Dang Sony let us down there too with this new body
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    All relative of course but sometimes consumers think for 3200 dollars it should take out the garbage too. Yes we should get our monies worth but honestly I felt more ripped off by the A7r given its issues. Obviously we all have opinions on this and myself I expect some issues to pop up, now Sony needs to update firmware more frequently and pay attention to some of these complaints or issues that are obvious problems. That's what firmware is for and other OEMS are far better at this than Sony. They need to change this
    Maybe they all need to be emailing Sony about any 'real' issues as I remember doing when there was the problem with IBIS not kicking in with adapted lenses when the A7II came out and they sorted it pretty quickly. If I remember rightly there are a couple of forum members who have some direct access into Sony in the US. On the whole though the lack of firmware improvements is my biggest gripe with Sony, fuji have shown the way in this area

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    Re: Here we go again...

    The question becomes what are the real definitive issues at hand. On one hand we have real issues brought up by folks with the experience to find them and Identify them ( question is who the hell are they as they all have already screwed this up with Canon lenses for example) than you got the whiners that look for stuff , they Canon/nikon folks that are just flat out jealous for some odd reason and than you got I just hate Sony folks. Problem is finding the right set of folks that are neutral on all issues , smart enough to find them and actually know it is a issue. Than you have reviewers that you question there ethics because they are getting paid or whatever. This is a vicious circle of mistrust, experience and so on and so forth. Seriously I look at every review with a huge question mark on this release. Reason I am not going to do one, I'm not putting my reputation on the line and be put in this **** up of a release.

    Ill hang here with my friends. lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  29. #79
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Meanwhile at Sony HQ:

    Name:  99-american-movie-locations-60508-22-420-75.jpg
Views: 356
Size:  19.6 KB


    House point for anyone who gets the reference.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: Here we go again...

    I am not sure what the REAL ISSUE's are? Is it a real issue to expect a camera to perform beyond a reasonable design intent engineering limit. Or that it performs flawlessly on the extreme limits of its specs? Or that it performs flawlessly as a so called pro level still camera as well as a so called pro level video camera without compromises? (whatever PRO Camera means)

    I have not seen one REAL ISSUE that would stop a paid professional or average user from using this camera within the bounds of typical daily requirements of a still camera in day to day photographic assignments demanding excellent IQ at large print quality levels. I have seen issues identified at the extremes in usage but none in 99.9% of typical applications for a camera such as this. Sure it won't do network quality 4K video for a 9 inning ball game and it won't shoot 70 continuous 30 sec exposures without showing DR deterioration issues ........ I feel this is just asking far too much for any handheld camera to do flawlessly no matter how advanced the technology is today.

    Maybe the next model will have a cool can cooling system on it you can wear as a backpack while manipulating this little body on a steady cam mount with directional microphones, monitors, and aux sound, and aux video recorder units with a pocket full of SD cards and batteries and do next years Met's game from start to finish.
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  31. #81
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Personally my biggest niggle through all the publicity was the hidden 'buts'.

    It has better less read noise - but the noise isn't actually that great anyway.
    It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result.
    It shoots 4k - but overheats

    This doesn't apply to everyone but it applied to me. Not to say I dislike the camera, as that would be a lie. The 7rii didn't choose it's parents and as such shouldn't be beaten down for their life choices.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result

    Im still trying to figure out why that is. It just does not make any sense logically to me. It has to do with the shutter itself.


    It shoots 4k - but overheats

    This one makes sense to me at some point it needs to shut off and cool down
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Guy do the other bodies with silent shutter do the same?

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Guy do the other bodies with silent shutter do the same?
    I don't have any of those but I think I read that they do. So not body specific per say.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Personally my biggest niggle through all the publicity was the hidden 'buts'.

    It has better less read noise - but the noise isn't actually that great anyway.
    It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result.
    It shoots 4k - but overheats

    This doesn't apply to everyone but it applied to me. Not to say I dislike the camera, as that would be a lie. The 7rii didn't choose it's parents and as such shouldn't be beaten down for their life choices.
    Chris as you may have noticed my attitude on certain things being negative its really only been on the reportage of this release. Its freaking horrible and Im pretty pissed off about this and the blow our industry has taken over it. Its turned into who can blog faster and report more stupid crap than the next guy.

    Some of these things are workarounds and just niggles I agree. Some like the 12 bit issue needs a serious talk with the engineers. I really like this unit and really not finding much fault as the part number but more coming from base camp
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  36. #86
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Meanwhile at Sony HQ:

    Name:  99-american-movie-locations-60508-22-420-75.jpg
Views: 356
Size:  19.6 KB


    House point for anyone who gets the reference.


  37. #87
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    Re: Here we go again...

    12 bit output happens when in

    1. Silent shutter mode

    2. Speed priority continous shooting

    This is the case with the A7s and it is continued on the A7rII. It could stem from the lack of processing capacity.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Is their any camera made by anyone that has a silent shutter operation that has a better than 12 bit output?

    I ask this because I just never have researched this at all as it is a technology my photography does not require but I am curious if anyone has silent shutter and is able to do it better.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result

    Im still trying to figure out why that is. It just does not make any sense logically to me. It has to do with the shutter itself.
    From what I have read, under some specific circonstancies, the camera switch from recording in 14 bits to 12 bits, which diminishes DR. those circonstancies includes low exposure noise reduction, silent shooting and high speed continuous drive. The reason behind it is that the body needs to manage and store the data faster.

    I don't know how much DR is lost due to that, nor nor how that will affect real life shooting.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Is their any camera made by anyone that has a silent shutter operation that has a better than 12 bit output?

    I ask this because I just never have researched this at all as it is a technology my photography does not require but I am curious if anyone has silent shutter and is able to do it better.
    The Sony RX100 iv perhaps is the candidate for that. I am hoping that tech permeates to the rumored A6000 successor.

    Both (silent shutter and continuos speed priority shooting)features are very useful to me.

  41. #91
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Thanks Vivek and I can appreciate its usefulness in some applications. I was just seeing if any other camera offered silent shutter and a better bit performance or even equal to it.

    Point is though useful and everyone likes improvements but essentially what I am understanding is we are complaining about bit performance with silent shutter when if you need silent shutter Sony is the only and best game in town. I would think those that need silent shutter would be glad to have it even at a reduced bit output.
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  42. #92
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Jim great to have no question. I guess what the real question is why dropping to 12 bit. High speed shooting I get the buffering and speed issue and high speed bracketing. Silent shutter to me does not seem to need faster anything. It's just supposed to be silent. Myself a unused feature since the new shutter sound is pretty quiet but it does have its place for some. Technically it just does not make sense.

    Be nice if Sony directly answered some of these questions as I think it would be understood more why. I think Sony coming from video over many years is still using some of that tech here on the still side of the house.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Guy your last point hits the nail on the head as to how Sony approaches still photography. We see it in mirrorless technology, EVF's, high speed frame rates, etc....

    No major corporation does engineering designs without a reason or known effect. I would assume the same thing of intentionally dropping bit output with certain features. I am guessing it solved a issue they were having and most likely figured it would be unnoticed or unknown to the vast majority of their customers.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Be nice if Sony directly answered some of these questions as I think it would be understood more why.
    The recent "interactive session" missed that opportunity.

    My rudimentary undestanding is that the electronic shutter for a CMOS sensor involves a lot of computing power.

    BTW, the silent shutter mode can not be used in conjunction with the speed priority mode.
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  45. #95
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Guy your last point hits the nail on the head as to how Sony approaches still photography. We see it in mirrorless technology, EVF's, high speed frame rates, etc....

    No major corporation does engineering designs without a reason or known effect. I would assume the same thing of intentionally dropping bit output with certain features. I am guessing it solved a issue they were having and most likely figured it would be unnoticed or unknown to the vast majority of their customers.
    Almost every issue brought to light is in firmware updates even if something needs processing power it could come down to lossy compression files or something of that nature.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Dropping to 12-bit mode for silent shutter makes sense, because they're bound by sensor readout speed. They only have so long to electronically 'stop' the exposure; if it takes too long you start to see rolling shutter, etc, IIRC. And at 42MP, readout speed is a big challenge.

    To me, it's dropping to 12-bit in _bulb_ mode, even with LENR off, that makes no sense whatsoever.

    As for the drop with continuous, we should at least be offered the option to shoot in 13-bit, at reduced fps as compared to 12-bit.

    Sony's insistence on taking away control from the user is what frustrates me. This applies to their insistence on using lossy RAW as well. All we're asking for is options.
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  47. #97
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    Re: Here we go again...

    I thinks it's normal to have gripes or find genuine faults with a new camera but there is a group of people that spread issues, these are the ones I shake my head at. I don't understand why they do it but it's mostly happened with the NEX-7, the A7R, and now this camera for Sony. Interestingly they have do have surprising links to the manufacturer. They seem to look at what is a potential fault and since they have covered off more noise with a bsi I wonder if they are looking into the others bsi problems of pixel bleeding and increased diffraction.

  48. #98
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slingers View Post
    I don't understand why they do it but it's mostly happened with the NEX-7, the A7R, and now this camera for Sony. Interestingly they have do have surprising links to the manufacturer.
    Would you blame them or Sony for making NEX-7 and A7r?

    Don't forget that better sensors came into NEX after the NEX-7 (criticism) (I paid 1200 Euros for the NEX-7) and the shutter issue has become non existent in the A7X cams (I paid 2200 Euros for the A7r).

  49. #99
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Issues like the shutter shake are genuine problems and are very useful to know and to have a workaround. As well as the unforgiving NEX-7 sensor which overheats in 1080 faster than the A7RII in 4K.

    I think it's great the next cameras have removed these problems and hopefully the current issues like reducing to 12bit during bulb mode are fixed going forward.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Slinger I think I noticed it first with the introduction of the a33 slt technology. Seems anything designed outside the status quo like slt's, mirrorless, ff mirrorless, newer sensor technologies, etc... Bring out the haters and the hate spreaders. Unfortunately Sony has and does design outside the typical SLR technologies which brings this sort of actions to come after them. We saw the same sort of thinking back at the beginning of digital and those with death grips on their film gear. In short the hater and hater spreaders are a result of resistance to change and the idea that we have always done this that way and nothing new is going to do it better or if man was meant to fly ......
    Last edited by Jim DE; 20th August 2015 at 09:47.
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