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Thread: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

  1. #1
    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    No, we do not yet have the micro 4/3rds to end all micro 4/3rds cameras. Here, I stay away from things like, "Where's the pro micro 4/3rds with the weatherproof body?" and such and concentrate on what we know are the shortcomings of current bodies.

    G1: Not compact enough, not as attractive (sometimes it means something) as the E-P's and GF1.
    GH1: Too expensive with the obligatory 14-140mm lens.
    GF1: Poor resolution EVF option.
    E-P1: Slow and hunty AF and no EVF.
    E-P2: AF no better than E-P1.

    Now we need:
    The AF of the G1/GH1, the compactness of the GF1, the EVF of the G1/GH1/EP-2 (built into the body).
    Will the GF2 combine it all?

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    For video there are more missing features with the GH1:

    - Support for external monitor
    - Better Codec
    - 30fps frame rate
    - Better AF during vide- better control for sound
    - built-in ND filter
    - smother manual focus
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    G1: Not compact enough, not as attractive (sometimes it means something) as the E-P's and GF1.
    That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the G1 just as it is, or a little larger. It's certainly not a "flaw" to be "unattractive". I look through a camera, not at it.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the G1 just as it is, or a little larger. It's certainly not a "flaw" to be "unattractive". I look through a camera, not at it.
    I have no issues in terms of form factor with G1/GH1 either. Of course I want a good EVF. The G1/GH1 EVF is ok.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Member slau's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I still have to see either a 'perfect' still camera or camcorder yet . You can find some 'imperfection' about ANY camera or camcorder. The AF of G1/GH1 has tons of rooms for improvement.
    Stephen Lau
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the G1 just as it is, or a little larger. It's certainly not a "flaw" to be "unattractive". I look through a camera, not at it.
    Times two here.

    I would prefer the grip on the G1 to be a bit larger & house 4 "AA" batteries rather than the short life Panasonic cube.
    Panasonic G1 & GF1 bodies, Panasonic 14-45, 45-200mm, various Minolta, Pentax, Canon FD, M39 & M42 mount lenses.

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    Member hodad66's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    My only gripe would be the reports of the strap lugs
    pulling out. Otherwise..... I'm very happy with my
    G1 after many generations of canon DSLR's.
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Member slau's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by hodad66 View Post
    My only gripe would be the reports of the strap lugs
    pulling out. Otherwise..... I'm very happy with my
    G1 after many generations of canon DSLR's.
    I have read a few reports of broken lugs too but how many actually are 'defects' are still not sure. Tough to say the strap lugs are problem based on that. I have been using my GH1/G1 for months now and so far so good.
    Stephen Lau
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Evers View Post
    Times two here.

    I would prefer the grip on the G1 to be a bit larger & house 4 "AA" batteries rather than the short life Panasonic cube.
    To house 4 AAs, the grip would have to be about double the size and the camera would weigh 20% more with AA NiMH 2600mah batteries in it. And I get 500-700 exposures per charge with the Li-Ion battery ...

    I sincerely doubt that AAs will be all that longer lived per charge. My Pentax *ist DS used AAs and typically got 500-600 exposures per charge on NiMH cells. I was very glad when Pentax went to a Li-Ion battery in the K10D as it proved far more consistent, smaller, and easier to manage.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by slau View Post
    I have read a few reports of broken lugs too but how many actually are 'defects' are still not sure. Tough to say the strap lugs are problem based on that. I have been using my GH1/G1 for months now and so far so good.
    After a year+ of constant use, my G1 looks virtually as new and the lugs are not loose. I don't baby it, but I do treat it with proper respect as a precision optical-electronic instrument.

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    Member hodad66's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I just read about this today. Normally I never use the strap.
    I either use a holster bag or a shoulder strap connected to
    the tripod mount. I just ordered 2 hand straps because my
    GF said that she would like the wrist strap for safety.......
    funny that I would see this discussion today....
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    The only two flaws I see with this format are:

    1. Sensors don't lend themselves for high ISO performance
    2. Sensor size makes wide angle shots more difficult

    Other than that, I love everything about my G1/GH1. Frankly I don't need a more compact version, and I'm doing fine without the GF1/EP-1 format, so the fact that 'we need' something that compact is certainly debatable.

    I'd be very happy with an improved sensor that could handle higher ISO (at least up to 3200, but maybe 6400, with the same quality it handles 800 now) - that to me would be the perfect m4/3 camera. I don't think that's too far off into the future, and it seems the format has been adopted widely enough to interest manufacturers in continuing development on it.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    My Pentax *ist DS
    Godfrey, how does one pronounce that model? I've always been curious.

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    Member kwalsh's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Another vote for G1 in the form factor it is already in. I suppose you could nip a few corners but I still want a big EVF, articulating LCD and grip.

    Another minus for AA - I like lithium because it is low leakage and high energy density. No NiMH silliness please - heavier, bulkier and can't sit on the shelf.

    I think one of the easiest fixes to the "problems" you outline would be a GH1+14-45 kit to supplant the G1. And for varieties sake it'd be nice to see G1/GH1 type body from Olympus.

    Ken

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    The only two flaws I see with this format are:

    1. Sensors don't lend themselves for high ISO performance
    2. Sensor size makes wide angle shots more difficult
    1. Yes

    2. what about the 7-14mm (14-28mm equivalent). Not wide enough?
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    To house 4 AAs, the grip would have to be about double the size and the camera would weigh 20% more with AA NiMH 2600mah batteries in it. And I get 500-700 exposures per charge with the Li-Ion battery ...

    I sincerely doubt that AAs will be all that longer lived per charge. My Pentax *ist DS used AAs and typically got 500-600 exposures per charge on NiMH cells. I was very glad when Pentax went to a Li-Ion battery in the K10D as it proved far more consistent, smaller, and easier to manage.
    I guess its personal, but I hate AAs for camera use. I get excellent usage from my OEM batteries (I have 3 that I rotate between 2 bodies).

    As to appearance-- I don't mind the G1's appearance at all. Seems to me that there was a hue and cry about the 'faux' prism hump and that it looks like a mini-DSLR, but it takes care of the EVF--and I wouldn't want to lose that. If they find another place for the EVF that works, that's fine with me. I prefer a camera that handles nicely and the G1 does for me in its present form--much better than the GF1 and EP-1--the grip fits me. I understand that it might be a bit small for some men. All in all, it generally suits. I do have a GF1 and like it also, but I shoot differently with it--and the lack of a little bit more grip makes it less nice to handle--for me. I also don't care about it being smaller. The GF1 is as small as I want it--and the G1 can evolve, but I don't want it substantially smaller.

    There isn't a perfect camera. Things will change and improve--hopefully, but its a doggone good design for a first.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Godfrey, how does one pronounce that model? I've always been curious.
    Honestly have no idea how Pentax intended it to be pronounced.
    I've heard some Pentaxers call it 'star-ist dee ess'.
    Dumb name, but eh? not to worry.

    It was a fine little camera, made many thousands of excellent photos for me.

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    Member Ron Evers's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    To house 4 AAs, the grip would have to be about double the size and the camera would weigh 20% more with AA NiMH 2600mah batteries in it. And I get 500-700 exposures per charge with the Li-Ion battery ...

    I sincerely doubt that AAs will be all that longer lived per charge. My Pentax *ist DS used AAs and typically got 500-600 exposures per charge on NiMH cells. I was very glad when Pentax went to a Li-Ion battery in the K10D as it proved far more consistent, smaller, and easier to manage.
    I have never counted the number of shots I get but I sure get more on my S5 with 4 AAs than on the G1. I do take exception to your assertion that the size would increase dramatically to include 4 AAs in the G1. As you can see in the pic below there is only a size differential of 6mm between the S5 & the G1. The S5 is much nicer in the hand, particularly with a longer lens.

    As for shelf life of AAs, eneloop batteries from Sanyo hold full charge for months.


    Panasonic G1 & GF1 bodies, Panasonic 14-45, 45-200mm, various Minolta, Pentax, Canon FD, M39 & M42 mount lenses.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Hi

    on the subject of batteries I got about 700 images in rome with my G1 before the battery was cactus. This was a mixture of kit zoom and some legacy lenses (90% kit zoom)

    I know that I photocopied a 1600 or so page book on one battery using an FD 28mm legacy lens.

    The BLB13E battery I have is "rated" at supplying 9Wh (7.2V @ 1250mAh) now assuming the 4 1.2V 2700mAh AA's were used in series (to give 4.8v) we're still up on power (having 12.96Wh available).

    The only issue I see is "can the camera and its CPU operate at 4.8V"


    so if the cameras technology can't operate on 4.8v then its question answered really as voltage "step up" methods will not be efficient.

    on the issues of the perfect micro 4/3 ... the G1 in a weather sealed body is the perfect micro 4/4 camera.

  20. #20
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I am surprised no one has mentioned the limited (sic) dynamic range of Panasonic's M4/3rds sensor, I find highlight headroom quite restrictive.

    tripper

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    For video there are more missing features with the GH1:

    - Support for external monitor
    - Better Codec
    - 30fps frame rate
    - Better AF during vide- better control for sound
    - built-in ND filter
    - smother manual focus
    all of the above, but real 24P support instead of the 60i wrapper for video

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    (...)
    on the issues of the perfect micro 4/3 ... the G1 in a weather sealed body is the perfect micro 4/4 camera.
    I would like my next 4/3 camera to be similar to the G1 as well. I wouldn't mind the EVF to be moved to the left but if they decide to keep the basic form that's fine with me as well.

    But, there are several details I want Panasonic, or Olympus, or Fuji (or anyone else) to improve on compared to the G1:

    1) Noise. The sensor is small and I guess we all have decided to live with the noise levels. I hope they improve. Above all I hope the blotchy ugly sort of noise in shadow areas will become more film-like (in lack of a better word)

    2) A slightly bigger grip. It couldn't possible hurt anyone.

    3) Another wheel, at the back of the camera. I don't like the current solution with one wheel doing several things at all

    4) Move the front wheel. One can adopt, I know. But why not move it to the top of the grip instead?

    5) The flash... please make the flash work with legacy lenses. The current situations is simply stupid.

    6) Shorter synch time for flashes. The D70 was made several years ago and...

    7) Shorter shutter times. There is nothing wrong with 1/8000.

    8) ISO 50 and perhaps even ISO 25. Not for general use but it can be a godsend.

    9) A one push manual focusing function. Thank you.

    10) An option with 2x or 3x enlarged image when focusing manually. Sometimes 5x is a bit much

    11) IBIS - provided it can be turned off, guaranteed to keep the sensor completely still

    12) Tougher build, including weather sealing

    13) IR remote

    14) Improved AF if that is possible

    15) Shorter viewfinder black-out between shots

    16) A new menu system (similar to current Canon versions?)

    17) Electronic level thingie, and an orientation sensor in body

    18) One or two buttons totally customable (or similar solution)

    19) HDR-function, JPG and raw in-camera and also a more customable bracketing function

    20) Averaging function, JPG and raw in-camera

    This would probably make the camera a bit bigger. I see no problem with that. Smaller options are available for those liking that.

    I have already posted what I think about lenses. Not many liked those ideas. So, I guess these ideas will be rejected as well.

    Feel free to post anything I forgot and everything I never came to think of, and that I am an idiot wishing for something nobody else wants to have.

    Cheers,

    /Jonas

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Jonas, your list is quite coplete :-).

    I posted my wish list for video above.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I am surprised no one has mentioned the limited (sic) dynamic range of Panasonic's M4/3rds sensor, I find highlight headroom quite restrictive.
    I agree. The dynamic range of the GF1 needs to be improved in future models.

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Hi Uwe, Nice to see you here
    My experience is only with G1, I wish I had more control over Auto Bracket.
    Right know in order to take 3 pictures, -2EV, Normal, +2EV, you have to take seven pictures and wait until all frames are transferred to the card

    Manouch

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by manouch shirzad View Post
    Hi Uwe, Nice to see you here
    My experience is only with G1, I wish I had more control over Auto Bracket.
    Right know in order to take 3 pictures, -2EV, Normal, +2EV, you have to take seven pictures and wait until all frames are transferred to the card

    Manouch
    Yes bracketing is just silly on the G1/GH1.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    My biggest complain is really dynamic range. There other stuff I'd like to have, but they are not as crucial as DR for the type of photos I do.
    - Faster AF
    - Full manual control over video (full HD 24fps with a high quality codec)
    - A wider variety of lenses at more affordable prices
    - I guess better high iso (even though I'm happy with the E-P1 regarding this point)

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    Jonas, your list is quite coplete :-).
    I posted my wish list for video above.
    I know nothing about video but I think you covered most of the suggestions I have seen at different places.

    For still imaging my list may look long and it can give the reader the impression I think the G1 is a piece of crap. Now that is not the case. It is a long list but nearly all the listed improvements are minor and easy to implement suggestions.

    The G1 materialized over a year ago and it has changed the way I use a camera, it works pretty well and I don't think I have seen another "first of its sort" as well thought out.

    The worst flaw of all 4/3 cameras is probably that we want more of everything; options, low-grade, high-grade, lenses, flashes, retailers, whatever that make a system a real system.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I am super happy with the G1. I have had 3. Right now my blue G1 is at the service center. It has suffered from the covering coming off on the hinges. I believe there was a batch of cameras that had this problem. I also wore the paint off of the buttons on my first one, which was annoying.
    While I like the way that the GF1 fits in my purse better, when I want to go out and shoot with micro 4/3, I grab the G1. My only wishes for the future model are the focus assist to be put on the wheel like the GF1 and OIS like the E-P1 would be a plus.
    I happen to like the way the body looks. I could never understand why anyone thought it was ugly. I also have no problem with the OEM batteries. I have an extra in my bag, but rarely need it.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    I am super happy with the G1. I have had 3. Right now my blue G1 is at the service center. It has suffered from the covering coming off on the hinges. I believe there was a batch of cameras that had this problem. I also wore the paint off of the buttons on my first one, which was annoying.
    While I like the way that the GF1 fits in my purse better, when I want to go out and shoot with micro 4/3, I grab the G1. My only wishes for the future model are the focus assist to be put on the wheel like the GF1 and OIS like the E-P1 would be a plus.
    I happen to like the way the body looks. I could never understand why anyone thought it was ugly. I also have no problem with the OEM batteries. I have an extra in my bag, but rarely need it.
    I agree Cindy. I really like the G1 for what it is. Good ergonomics (at least for me), excellent LCD, super EVF, and great kit lenses. It is not a wannabe RF or a full fledged DSLR - just the very capable G1. I also use a GF1, but mostly for casual walks and web stuff. Most of the printable shots come from the G1 and for the landscapes those taken with a tripod using the LCD (my favorite combo).

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by tripper View Post
    I am surprised no one has mentioned the limited (sic) dynamic range of Panasonic's M4/3rds sensor, I find highlight headroom quite restrictive.

    tripper
    Right on. If I could have only one upgrade for my G1 it would be two more stops of dynamic range.

    Paul

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    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    Another vote for G1 in the form factor it is already in. I suppose you could nip a few corners but I still want a big EVF, articulating LCD and grip.

    Another minus for AA - I like lithium because it is low leakage and high energy density. No NiMH silliness please - heavier, bulkier and can't sit on the shelf.

    I think one of the easiest fixes to the "problems" you outline would be a GH1+14-45 kit to supplant the G1. And for varieties sake it'd be nice to see G1/GH1 type body from Olympus.

    Ken
    I'm still using the G1 because I don't think the other offerings have improved on it in any way I care about. I don't do video. I would like a longer life battery, if it could be achieved without much size change, and I hate AA batteries in a camera. Nothing more annoying than fumbling with four AA cells.

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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    I would like my next 4/3 camera to be similar to the G1 as well. I wouldn't mind the EVF to be moved to the left but if they decide to keep the basic form that's fine with me as well.

    But, there are several details I want Panasonic, or Olympus, or Fuji (or anyone else) to improve on compared to the G1:

    1) Noise. The sensor is small and I guess we all have decided to live with the noise levels. I hope they improve. Above all I hope the blotchy ugly sort of noise in shadow areas will become more film-like (in lack of a better word)

    2) A slightly bigger grip. It couldn't possible hurt anyone.


    /Jonas
    How about to appease both groups, a detachable grip/bottom plate the way some SLRs used to have? Could have a larger battery holder, or not.

  34. #34
    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by tripper View Post
    I am surprised no one has mentioned the limited (sic) dynamic range of Panasonic's M4/3rds sensor, I find highlight headroom quite restrictive.

    tripper
    Honestly, it's not that bad. I shoot with it and a D300 and the difference isn't striking. I owned a Fuji S5. Now THAT camera had a wide DR!

  35. #35
    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    Honestly, it's not that bad. I shoot with it and a D300 and the difference isn't striking. I owned a Fuji S5. Now THAT camera had a wide DR!
    I agree, Rich. I shot the G1/GF1 side by side with a Fuji S5 on a recent photo tour. The Fuji did have more DR, but the G1/GF1 held their own. I have the histogram down in the lower corner of my screen and check it before I click the shutter. I have very few shots ruined by blown highlights.

  36. #36
    Member slau's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    I have been using my G1/GH1 side-by-side with my 1DMk3 during my last few 5-7 day photo trips. As far as I am concerned, I did not notice any short coming from my G1/GH1 due to limited DR. I shot from wildlife to landscape on y trips. Btw, the G1/GH1 images printed very nicely too. I do wish that the G1/GH1 has the weather resistant body, better high ISO performance and AF speed/accuracy. I am actually very happy with the little Panasonic battery, considering its size and weight.

    I am more than happy to use my G1/GH1 (instead of another 1 series body) as the back up to my Canon, and I always pack the Canon to M4/3 adapter with me too.
    Stephen Lau
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    http://www.pbase.com/stephenl

  37. #37
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Hi

    with respect to the dynamic range, I think that the camera does some cunning things with how it processes its JPGs internally, including how it meters.

    When I first got my G1 I still had (and was using) a 10D (sold my 20D about a year before that, but that is another story).

    At that time I had been doing some testing of RAW outputs using DCRAW because I wished to get away from any 'bias' which may be happening for me automagically using ACR in Photoshop (my normal conversion).

    I was first surprised by the JPG's showing quite different results but realised that I was already using a method to photograph things which was designed to take into account the behavior of the 10D I had been examining before.

    To cut a long story short if you go and peek at the DXOMark results from the G1 it doesn't do too badly.

    Its a bit like 4WD's ... a mate has a Landrover and I have a Pajero. He has a bit more clearance and vehicle ability than me, but often he only gets his truck a bit further up the track than me before he has to start walking too.

    So when the picture dynamic range going gets tough I turn to HDR ... personally if the lovely folk at Panasonic would make a sensor which (like the S5) had 2 sensor sensitivity's built in I'd leap on it. Mean time I'm stuck using HDR



    I too would second and third the call for a better approach to HDR capture. The bracket function is so dismal I normally just use the front wheel do dial in my over and under values.

    but for 90% of my photographs (well, at least in Finland) the range is usually quite enough...



    we'll see how I feel back in Australia

  38. #38
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    How about to appease both groups, a detachable grip/bottom plate the way some SLRs used to have? Could have a larger battery holder, or not.
    I hear you and yes, some would like to have this:

    21) A sturdy optional grip housing GPS and WiFi units and room for an extra battery. The grip needs to be tested and guaranteed to work with and without the extra battery for different needs (cold weather, weight saving, convenience) and also without adding RF noise

    1b) (Noise) I was thinking of the G1 and forgot saying the GH1 banding problems should be fixed as well

  39. #39
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    DR... The dynamic range is limited but so is everything. It isn't that bad today compared to many cameras with bigger sensors and that's why it isn't on my list.
    I don't think it is reasonable to expect a 2 stop improvement. Half a stop at tops, maybe. If anyone can do significantly better it is Fuji but then I guess the resolution goes down.

  40. #40
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Godfrey, how does one pronounce that model? I've always been curious.
    * is a short/euphemism for [email protected]#$%^&*ist

  41. #41
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    The only two flaws I see with this format are:

    1. Sensors don't lend themselves for high ISO performance
    2. Sensor size makes wide angle shots more difficult

    Other than that, I love everything about my G1/GH1. Frankly I don't need a more compact version, and I'm doing fine without the GF1/EP-1 format, so the fact that 'we need' something that compact is certainly debatable.

    I'd be very happy with an improved sensor that could handle higher ISO (at least up to 3200, but maybe 6400, with the same quality it handles 800 now) - that to me would be the perfect m4/3 camera. I don't think that's too far off into the future, and it seems the format has been adopted widely enough to interest manufacturers in continuing development on it.
    You will not wait long. This year we'll see a back-illuminated 4/3 sensor. (That technology might be very late or never reach the full frame). In a nutshell the sensitivity/DR should go up 1 stop from that alone. From improved processing another stop. So 3200ISO will look today's 800.

  42. #42
    Member slau's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by nugat View Post
    So 3200ISO will look today's 800.
    If that is the case, the G1/GH1 will be a lot useful for indoor shooting. Currently my 'ISO cutoff' for my G1/GH1 is ISO800, and anything above ISO800 is kind of reserved for 'emergency'. Hope that is coming soon.
    Stephen Lau
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  43. #43
    meilicke
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Body color options like Pentax in Japan: http://www.psfk.com/2009/12/100-diff...-x-series.html

  44. #44
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Very interesting thread. Coming from the Olympus side of the "marriage" (first the EP1 and now the EP2), my main gripe is the AF - seems that Panasonic is a bit ahead of Oly in that department (how much is up to conjecture, but there is certainly a difference).

    I prefer the form factor of the EP1/2 and GH1. If I wanted a small DSLR style camera I would get a small DSLR. I like the addition of the EVF on the EP2 for those times I want to use older manual focus lenses (and my Lensbaby), otherwise I can deal with the LCD. Certainly don't feel I need a bigger grip on a camera this size and the batteries are fine.

    What I would like is a way to control the remote flashes - guess a pop-up flash would help here?

    As far as noise and DR - I am very happy with what I have seen out of the EP2. Certainly better than I had with even my E30. Obviously not as good as the Can/Nik full framers - but I never expected it to be. But I read these threads about "noise problems" (being a long-time Olympus 4/3 user I have read many) and I think, "I guess these people never used ISO400 film? Now THAT was grainy!!!" (We didn't call it noise back then!)
    Just some random thoughts.
    Steve

  45. #45
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Evers View Post
    I have never counted the number of shots I get but I sure get more on my S5 with 4 AAs than on the G1. I do take exception to your assertion that the size would increase dramatically to include 4 AAs in the G1. As you can see in the pic below there is only a size differential of 6mm between the S5 & the G1. The S5 is much nicer in the hand, particularly with a longer lens.

    As for shelf life of AAs, eneloop batteries from Sanyo hold full charge for months.
    And yet the S5 definitely feels much heavier and chunkier than the G1. I prefer the G1 for feel. From my experience, the G1 has a better shooting life than the S5, and I used Sanyo eneloops and rarely used the LCD.

  46. #46
    jerryk
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    My biggest issue is with the jpegs image quality and default settings for raw images on the gf1. Both are poor and I have to post process each image. However, once the raw images are processed they really sing. I think the resultant image quality I get from the GF1 is as good as I get from a 1DMK3. It just takes more work.

  47. #47
    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    I agree, Rich. I shot the G1/GF1 side by side with a Fuji S5 on a recent photo tour. The Fuji did have more DR, but the G1/GF1 held their own. I have the histogram down in the lower corner of my screen and check it before I click the shutter. I have very few shots ruined by blown highlights.
    I once did a simple test, using an S5, my D300 and an Olympus E-510. I shot a ceiling light. The S5 was the only one that could render the scene like my eye saw it. The other two blew out the details on the light shade completely. The E-510 was the worst. This is why I hope Fuji does release a micro 4/3rds or something like it.

  48. #48
    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by slau View Post
    If that is the case, the G1/GH1 will be a lot useful for indoor shooting. Currently my 'ISO cutoff' for my G1/GH1 is ISO800, and anything above ISO800 is kind of reserved for 'emergency'. Hope that is coming soon.
    In a way I hope it doesn't arrive. I don't want to see some reduced resolution body (at all ISOs) just to improve on high ISO noise. Keep the light AA filter and keep the noise at high ISO if it preserves the spectacular resolution of these cameras.

  49. #49
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by swandy View Post
    I prefer the form factor of the EP1/2 and GH1. If I wanted a small DSLR style camera I would get a small DSLR.
    I used to feel exactly that way before I had my G1. I bought it mainly for reasons of interchangable lenses and the AF features, but quickly realised how good the EVF was (everything I'd seen before was woeful). After picking up a 4/3 SLR I just laughed at how tiny the optical viewfinder was. Since I had already been complaining about the APS-C sized finders on my 10D / 20D compared to the film EOS cameras I owned (and a mates 5D) I could not use the viewfinder on a 4/3 SLR for anything more than pointing the camera. Critical focus is really not possible.

    of course each has their own preference but after having had SLR style use as well as having the zoom for fine tune of focus on occasion (strangely I don't need it as much as I thought) its just all good. Now for me the only use of an SLR is for high speed object tracking and continuous AF on the tracked subject.

    not sure if you've tried the G1 but if haven't it might grow on you :-)

  50. #50
    compositor20
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    Re: The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

    the m43 really need the fuji sensor it would make them breath against the aps crowd a 24megapixel or a 20 megapixel m43 sensor with a 12 or 10mp DR that has at least 12EV and a a high iso mode that is as good at iso 3200 as the e-p1 (the best of the m43) is at iso1600 and iso6400 as good as iso3200 is on e-p1 but with the absence of grain of the gh1

    the it needs HD or it wont sell 1080p at 24fps and 30fps (the gh1 successor should have 1080p at 60fps as cpu intense as it may become)

    and they should make a atialaising filter like the e-p1 at least or beetween gf-1 and e-p1 (gf-1 has serious false colour and maze artefacts that make high iso look worse

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