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Thread: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Ok, back to topic again - this was actually my main complaint, for a m43 lens - even if it is a 1.4/12 (1.4 24 equivalent in FF terms) this lens is far to big, which puts me off.
    Far too big, indeed.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Fair enough. In my experience it's usually not weight and size alone that people should judge. How a lens/body combination balances along with the body's ergonomics play a huge factor.
    You are absolutely right! But with that in mind, this lens only balances well with the EM1 plus grip or GH3/4 like cameras. Maybe the GX8 would do as well.

    But these are all far above size one would really buy into m43

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    There is a "proper" camera to lens size ratio. This has been mastered by Leica.

    Just check the Leica Q vs Sony RX1R.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There is a "proper" camera to lens size ratio. This has been mastered by Leica.

    Just check the Leica Q vs Sony RX1R.
    I agree on this one.

    But to be fair - for me a system is composed of cameras and all different types of lenses for different purposes, including street, social, landscape, portrait but also sports and wildlife. What I mean is that whenever one wants to use the wonderful m43 system for example for more extreme wildlife and sports, the combinations get overly sized big - EM1+grip-2.8/40-150 or GX8+100-400 etc. Also for landscape and other areas.

    And this new 1.4/12 is a very typical example of mis-proportion and too large size. I would have taken a 10 percent less quality (IQ, build etc) anytime for 50 percent reduced size and weight - especially for that system. Well maybe these percentages are a bit too extreme, but I think you are getting my point.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Far too big, indeed.
    I don't get it, Vivek: far too big for what ?
    Bart ...
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    I don't get it, Vivek: far too big for what ?
    Already explained. Reread all the post in this thread.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I agree on this one.

    But to be fair - for me a system is composed of cameras and all different types of lenses for different purposes, including street, social, landscape, portrait but also sports and wildlife. What I mean is that whenever one wants to use the wonderful m43 system for example for more extreme wildlife and sports, the combinations get overly sized big - EM1+grip-2.8/40-150 or GX8+100-400 etc. Also for landscape and other areas.

    And this new 1.4/12 is a very typical example of mis-proportion and too large size. I would have taken a 10 percent less quality (IQ, build etc) anytime for 50 percent reduced size and weight - especially for that system. Well maybe these percentages are a bit too extreme, but I think you are getting my point.
    Mis-proportion ? What's wrong with top quality lenses (big/heavy) especially if there are also near-top lenses (small/light) to choose ?
    I'd welcome the choice and pick what suits my needs or interests.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Mis-proportion ? What's wrong with top quality lenses (big/heavy) especially if there are also near-top lenses (small/light) to choose ?
    I'd welcome the choice and pick what suits my needs or interests.
    Well there are obviously different tastes, opinions and needs in play with different users - or how would you argue that otherwise.

    Sure one can prefer to pick heavy lenses in conceptually lightweight system. And I am guilty myself as I am shooting the 2.8/40-150 Pro on the EM1 with battery grip, and I love this lens and the files this combo produces.

    But to be honest, I am asking myself again and again why I am using this combo with all the drawbacks of the still very small m43 sensor - which BTW are pretty obvious when comparing to APSC and FF sensors today. Right, also m43 made some advances in sensors (aka 20MP sensors currently in PenF and GX8), but there already is now the gap in 2016 of 16MP against 24MP of typical APSC sensors and this gap will only increase, not even mentioning FF. So with m43 one will always have to live with lower resolution, which means less capability for cropping and also always inferior high ISO performance and DR compared to larger APSC sensors even with more MP (speak 24), let alone FF.

    Now the main reason why going for m43 and taking all this less optimal sensor performance on our shoulders is because we can get overall smaller systems, right? But with many of these new high end lenses like the discussed 1.4/12 that advantage of small and light goes pretty fast away. Why would I chose any combo of m43 camera with such a big lens if my main goal is to stay small and lightweight. Man, you then could easily go FF as well, sure would be still bigger, but who cares, once I have lost the m43 size weight advantage then at least I am willing to take the full burden of FF - either DSLR or mirrorless.

    Of course you have the choice now with heavy, fast and excellent m43 lenses, but the advantage in picking these combos compared to APSC and FF offerings is pretty fast going away. At least for my taste. While the sensor small size disadvantages remain.

    Anyway of course feel free to buy this lens and hopefully have lot of fun with it and post lot of great pictures, I most probably am out of this one at least
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Stop grinning like that, K-H
    I do respect Peter's and Vivek's opinion (why shouldn't I), but am flabbergasted about the negative tone.

    Oh well, here's a fine review to cheer you all up: Shooting new Leica Lumix 12mm f1.4 | NaturalExposures

    Bart ...

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Stop grinning like that, K-H
    I do respect Peter's and Vivek's opinion (why shouldn't I), but am flabbergasted about the negative tone.

    Oh well, here's a fine review to cheer you all up: Shooting new Leica Lumix 12mm f1.4 | NaturalExposures

    Knorp,

    just to put it right, my intention was and is not to bring a negative tone into any discussion, if this appeared so I do apologize.

    I am only not seeing the real sense behind such lens designs and as such where m43 is going as an overall system. But as I already mentioned others have different opinions and needs.

    Anyway just to improve the mood here, another review/samples of this lens: Panasonic Lumix G Leica 12mm F1.4 real-world sample gallery: Digital Photography Review

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Now, this is what I call a BIG lens - the improbably sized Sony FE 90/2.8 OSS (on the right) - the lens that broke my camels back - I only wish I'd had the guts to return it immediately as although it is a stellar lens it is truly ridiculously proportioned. If you think the 12/1.4 is big then I can only ask the question of Sony engineers, "What were you thinking?"



    Now a photograph showing the 12/1.4 on a GX8:



    It may be big but it is in proportion to the body and for my money looks acceptable.

    You really have to go to Sony for boat anchor sized lenses which bear no relation to the proportions of the body they are put on.

    Just my opinion.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Biglouis, I have been asking the same question you ask of those boat anchor makers, what were they thinking?

    My feelings about Otii, naturally, applies to the Sony Boat anchors.

    I hope m43 would stick to compactness as a feature of this system.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    In the old days between men the discussion was always "mine's bigger"
    Now we seem to enter the era where you want to be able to proudly say "mine's smaller"


    For me, as long as both options exist I'm fine, sometimes big is what you want, sometimes small is charming. To each and every situation its own.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    I really don't see a size problem here. It's smaller than the 14-50mm zoom that I use every day, and if it feels to big, there are smaller alternatives around. Illustration below: A7 II with Batis 25mm f/2 (834g), E-M1 with PanaLeica 12mm f/1.4 (832g), E-M1 with Zuiko 12mm f/2 (627g) and D750 with Nikkor 24mm f/1.8 (1,215g).

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Stop grinning like that, K-H
    I do respect Peter's and Vivek's opinion (why shouldn't I), but am flabbergasted about the negative tone.

    Oh well, here's a fine review to cheer you all up: Shooting new Leica Lumix 12mm f1.4 | NaturalExposures

    The feeling is mutual, Bart. None of the linkies you keep throwing are impressive. It appears that you are hell bent on getting it. That is a good thing and as Peter says, we can see some real samples with it soon.

    Looking forward to that.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Well, there are small and not so small lenses.
    Some have great optics, some not so great.
    Some have likeable character, some don't.
    Some are inexpensive, some really expensive.

    I think it's wonderful to have options.
    Pick and choose what you like.
    I certainly couldn't care less what anybody else buys.
    Nevertheless, I am inspired by the choices forum members make.

    My favorites include Olympus 7-14/2.8 Pro, PL 42.5/1.2, Leica R 80/1.4, Sony FE 90/2.8 MACRO G OSS, Leica R 280/4, Olympus 300/4 Pro, and many other "large" and/or "heavy" lenses. My favorites also include "tiny" and/or "light" lenses Voigtlšnder 10/5.6, 15/4.5, Leica WATE, Sony FE 35/2.8, Leica TE 90/2.8, etc.

    What's not to like - if used appropriately.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    The camera this lens really seems to be created for is the GH4 with it's larger size and better grip compared to the Olympus. Illustration below: A7 II with Batis 25mm f/2 (834g), E-M1 with PanaLeica 12mm f/1.4 (832g), X-T1 with Fuji 16mm f/1.4 (815g) and GH4 with PanaLeica 12mm f/1.4 (885g). It's interesting to see how small the weight difference is between these alternatives, just 70 grams between the lightest and the heaviest alternatives.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Batis is the clear winner here covering the largest real estate.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Batis is the clear winner here covering the largest real estate.
    It is if other qualities are as good as the coverage. One of the inherent advantages of a smaller format is that it's easier to deal with from a sharpness point of view. But if I was predominantly using WA lenses, an A7 would have been an obvious choice.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    But only when we compare telephoto equivalents will we get a fair picture of the situation



    Ummm... that's 2,079 vs. 346g
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Batis is the clear winner here covering the largest real estate.
    The irony is many think the Batis lenses are too big (although they're relatively light and balance well on 1st/2nd gen bodies) for the FE bodies. I guess I agree that I don't mind if the companies make small, slow, and light alternatives. I'll pass most days on them. I don't want to have a repeat of my M system that included 2-3 35mm options and 50mm options based on weight. I'll settle on one great fast lens that I can stop down when needed.

    When/if I sell my 85 Batis I'm gonna pick up a GM85 more than likely.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But only when we compare telephoto equivalents will we get a fair picture of the situation



    Ummm... that's 2,079 vs. 346g
    Telephoto is where Micro 4/3 makes more sense. If one compares a Olympus pro 40-150/2.8 to a Sigma 120-300/2.8 the difference is huge...
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    IBIS and telephoto are my main reasons for having MFT gear!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Telephoto is where Micro 4/3 makes more sense. If one compares a Olympus pro 40-150/2.8 to a Sigma 120-300/2.8 the difference is huge...
    Not only is it the area where it makes the most sense, but there are so many fantastic alternatives that choosing between them is really, really difficult.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But only when we compare telephoto equivalents will we get a fair picture of the situation



    Ummm... that's 2,079 vs. 346g
    Is that the new f2.8 on the left? The older f4 was a complete dog. I owned it for about 2 weeks (bought it second hand) before selling it. The IQ was mediocre.

    The IQ of the 35-100 I just bought is absolutely stellar. Sharp, sharp, sharp. And about 2/3rds the price.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Now here is an inspiration for the 35-100. Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It is if other qualities are as good as the coverage. One of the inherent advantages of a smaller format is that it's easier to deal with from a sharpness point of view. But if I was predominantly using WA lenses, an A7 would have been an obvious choice.
    Just checked the B&H page and the Sony & Batis 25mm combo seems to be rather around 890 grams. Still difficult to beat. I would prefer an a7II (r) with a Batis 25 & 85mm combo over an EM1 with 12mm 1,4 & Pana-Leica 42.5mm f1,2 any day. When it comes to going really light or use compact or premium zooms my conclusion would differ.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Is that the new f2.8 on the left? The older f4 was a complete dog. I owned it for about 2 weeks (bought it second hand) before selling it. The IQ was mediocre.

    The IQ of the 35-100 I just bought is absolutely stellar. Sharp, sharp, sharp. And about 2/3rds the price.

    LouisB
    That diminutive GM5 with the quite good 12-32 and 35-100mm zooms and a small and fast prime in the bag makes for an excellent travel combo.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    Just checked the B&H page and the Sony & Batis 25mm combo seems to be rather around 890 grams. Still difficult to beat. I would prefer an a7II (r) with a Batis 25 & 85mm combo over an EM1 with 12mm 1,4 & Pana-Leica 42.5mm f1,2 any day. When it comes to going really light or use compact or premium zooms my conclusion would differ.
    Your example looks fine until you add a 150mm equivalent and/or longer lenses. When I travel, and I do all the time, I often need lenses of 150mm eqv. or more. But needs are individual

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    That diminutive GM5 with the quite good 12-32 and 35-100mm zooms and a small and fast prime in the bag makes for an excellent travel combo.
    Exactly my plan. I have the GM5 already, and will buy the two lenses mentioned above plus the 42.5mm f/1.7. That's body with viewfinder, lenses that cover 24-200mm eqv. plus a portrait lens, all image stabilised within 550 grams.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Exactly my plan. I have the GM5 already, and will buy the two lenses mentioned above plus the 42.5mm f/1.7. That's body with viewfinder, lenses that cover 24-200mm eqv. plus a portrait lens, all image stabilised within 550 grams.
    GM1 with the two zooms and 20/1.7 (plus two extra batts). A package with full of compromise. Only for IR though. They go with me along with my RX1R II.

    I hope there will be GM1/5 sized body with a real shutter and full functionality soon.

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Well, I grew so old an make the same mistake again and again - one should never say never ... I start liking this lens - at least the results I see from it

    some great or at least interesting shots/video with the new 12/1.4

    Inside a banya with a Lumix GX8 and the 12mm f/1.4 ‚€” Mitchell Kanashkevich - Traditions, culture, travel photography

    BTW also a great testimonial about the robustness of this lens and of course the GX8!

    enjoy

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    I have generally belonged to the camp that feels that Micro 4/3 lenses really only make sense if they are small.

    The lens that bent that reasoning was the PL 42.5/1.2 Nocticron. That lens is special in a way that makes it exceptional independent of format. I want to shoot it all the time anyway. It is technically sound, yes, but also deliciously organic rather than sterile. It's near the top of the many 85-90 mm equivalent lenses I have used.

    So my curiosity about the new 12/1.4 stems from the same place. It's generally large, which starts it off at a significant disadvantage. However, I am curious to establish over time if the rendering is at a commensurately high level. That would make it like catnip.
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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    As the dust seems to have settled down ...

    Review and some pictures by MirrorLessons: Panasonic Leica 12mm f/1.4 Review
    Bart ...

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Very tempting but at a ridiculous price, at present.

    LouisB

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    Throwing in another one, this time from Imaging Resource: Panasonic 12mm f/1.4 ASPH Leica DG SUMMILUX
    Bart ...

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    Re: Fast wide PL 12/1.4

    They say it's sexy
    Bart ...

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