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Is it worth €1,999?

iiiNelson

Well-known member
If E-M1 had a "standardised" DSLR user interface, I would have been an Olympus user now. Unfortunately, I think that they allienated many potential users by insisting on a retro and rather chaotic user interface. They got away with it with the E-M5, a charming camera for hobbyists, but the E-M1 is supposed to be a work tool, and for anyone coming from a traditional SLR camera other than an OM-1 or 2, it lacks the logic needed for a fluent workflow, and I say this as an OM-1 user through 30 years. Panasonic, a company with no tradition for stills cameras, made the smart decission and went for a conservative user interface. I don't think Panasonic makes many more cameras than Olympus, but they have so many legs to stand on and their models also play together with their video gear, a totally different situation.

If a new top model is to materialise from Olympus, I sincerely hope that they have fixed it. I'll be interested.
Personally I believe the whole “user interface” dynamic is completely overblown with all cameras. When you use it enough then you will familiarize yourself with it no matter the system or camera. The other “issue” if you will is that hybrid cameras are the current and the future of all system cameras. People are just going to have to get over the fact that the menus are going to be deeper as the cameras become able to do more. You can’t expect a camera menu to be “4 pages long” when there’s video and photo settings to sort out. We are seeing that now with the new Canon EOS R now where people are realizing that there’s more depth to the menus compared to the DSLR’s and there’s going to be an initial learning curve... Same with the Nikon Z cameras where they didn’t work “just like Nikon’s of the past.”

I don't doubt the OM-D is more complicated than a film SLR but it’s unreasonable to expect to to be THAT simple as well. When I tried the OM-D I found them to be initially as complicated (or more so than Sony supposedly is). I found the Fuji XH1 and XT line pretty much to be nearly identical to the Sony menus with a bit less depth and customization options. Also if you don’t think Panasonic has deep menus then go pick up a GH5... they’re deep because that’s what professional videographers expect so that they can control all aspects of capture. Now they’re similar to what’s in a Panasonic pro cinema camera... but there’s a level of complication to them that’s present in literally every modern camera that’s not one of those stripped down Leica cameras that literally only has one function - still photography.

Dont mean to be argumentative but insee so many pass off subjective viewpoint as material fact. If you can operate a computer, setup a Lightroom Catalog, operate a smartphone... personally I have very little sympathy/patience/understanding for people complaining about the menu system of any digital camera that only do a few functions. Either they’re lying, didn’t try it out to test seriously, technically inept, and/or should probably just stick with their older working cameras - it’s just that simple. At this point I personally am starting to lean towards thinking of all these people that claim to own these cameras and can’t figure out how to use them or have the inability to learn how to operate a camera that they claim to own as morons but I get that is sort of a harsh outlook on others. Oh well.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
There is no such thing as a "standardised" DSLR user interface. :loco:

I don't have a problem with the UIs of Leica, Nikon, Olympus, or Sony. If necessary, no doubt, I could familiarize myself with a few additional ones and develop muscle memory for them.

I simply don't accept criticism from folks pretty much unfamiliar with what they are talking about. Of course, everybody should pick the UI they want. :grin:
 

Knorp

Well-known member
I'm sure no-one is trying to create a non-logical or chaotic UI.
Unfortunately what is logical to some is utter crap to others.
IMO the challenge is to create an intuitive UI ... :lecture:
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
There is no such thing as a "standardised" DSLR user interface. :loco:

I don't have a problem with the UIs of Leica, Nikon, Olympus, or Sony. If necessary, no doubt, I could familiarize myself with a few additional ones and develop muscle memory for them.

I simply don't accept criticism from folks pretty much unfamiliar with what they are talking about. Of course, everybody should pick the UI they want. :grin:
I owned and used the E-M1 for almost a year. My main reason for selling it was that the physical user interface, not the menus, was totally different from the Panasonic and Nikon cameras that I also used and still use.

There are good reasons why most cars have steering wheel, gear shift and vital other switches more or less in the same places. With a car, it's obviously a safety issue as well, but the principle is the same; most people tend to prefer to use what they know. When it comes to cameras, I'm sure Canon and Nikon have been able to maintain there market position much longer because they have continued to sell what most people are used to and what they expect, while other manufacturers have been experimenting, using their customers as beta testers.

There is no 100% standard interface, but Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Panasonic are very close to each other. In the past, Minolta and the Sony DSLR cameras fell in the same category. I can pretty much switch between most SLR and DSLR cameras from those manufacturers without picking up the user manual, at least as long as I don't need advanced features that require menu diving.

Take one example:
On the back of the E-M1, there's a switch with two positions that changes the functionality of other buttons and wheels. While it might sound like a good idea since you can double the number of functions, people have used cameras without that switch for decades, and in my case, I often forgot what position the switch was in, but it was mostly in the wrong one, causing me to adjust the wrong parameter.

The there's the on/off switch :loco:

Of course I can practice and learn how to remember it, but why should I when there are several other cameras on the market that work the way I'm used to and prefer? Technology that is not adapted to my needs and to the way I think is worthless to me.

And again, as an Olympus user for 30 years, going through the OM-1, OM-2, Om-2S, OM-3, OM-10, AZ-300, 7070 and E-1, I would have preferred to continue using them, but not the E-M1 as it's currently configured.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I owned and used the E-M1 for almost a year. My main reason for selling it was that the physical user interface, not the menus, was totally different from the Panasonic and Nikon cameras that I also used and still use.

There are good reasons why most cars have steering wheel, gear shift and vital other switches more or less in the same places. With a car, it's obviously a safety issue as well, but the principle is the same; most people tend to prefer to use what they know. When it comes to cameras, I'm sure Canon and Nikon have been able to maintain there market position much longer because they have continued to sell what most people are used to and what they expect, while other manufacturers have been experimenting, using their customers as beta testers.

There is no 100% standard interface, but Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Panasonic are very close to each other. In the past, Minolta and the Sony DSLR cameras fell in the same category. I can pretty much switch between most SLR and DSLR cameras from those manufacturers without picking up the user manual, at least as long as I don't need advanced features that require menu diving.

Take one example:
On the back of the E-M1, there's a switch with two positions that changes the functionality of other buttons and wheels. While it might sound like a good idea since you can double the number of functions, people have used cameras without that switch for decades, and in my case, I often forgot what position the switch was in, but it was mostly in the wrong one, causing me to adjust the wrong parameter.

The there's the on/off switch :loco:

Of course I can practice and learn how to remember it, but why should I when there are several other cameras on the market that work the way I'm used to and prefer? Technology that is not adapted to my needs and to the way I think is worthless to me.

And again, as an Olympus user for 30 years, going through the OM-1, OM-2, Om-2S, OM-3, OM-10, AZ-300, 7070 and E-1, I would have preferred to continue using them, but not the E-M1 as it's currently configured.
Everything that you mentioned is a YOU problem and that’s the crux of it all.

Tell you what... you can likely turn all of that stuff off and have a “standardize camera correct? My Sony is pretty much standard and few people that own gen 3 bodies complain about button layout. Actually a few people mentioned the new CaNikon cameras not having enough custom buttons, dropping the joystick in favor of the touch bar, having deeper menus, etc. The point is that if you can’t remember where things are then you probably aren’t actually using the camera enough. Most of the cameras will also give you a visual layout to remember where things are and you can always change how they work to suit you best. Again I’m just not buying the standard layout and having multiple configurations isn’t any different than a DSLR where people customize presets on the mode dial for certain shooting situations or people wanting the video settings to be independent of the photo settings.

Now you’re also contradicting yourself in that CaNikon are maintaining market share due to ergonomics. If that were the case other companies you mention wouldn’t be struggling in the camera space like Pentax (and if you want to talk about having a lot of buttons look at their 645 digital cameras) that needed to be saved by Ricoh... and Nikon that may or may not needed to be saved by Fuji. They maintain market share because of the age of the company, loyalty to the company from photographers of a certain generation, and the fact they used to put out better products than the competition at one time... there’s also the reality of mindshare of their products. There was a time not too long ago where the burning question was always should I buy a Canon or a Nikon. Thankfully there are many more legitimate options today. There was a time when the Leica M was THE professional small format camera. Their hesitation to embrace that SLR’s were the future and was a more flexible platform than the Rangefinder - coupled with Nikon’s lower prices allowed Nikon to surpass the Leica in the 60’s and 70’s as the choice for professional photographers, students, photojournalists, etc. Canon’s introduction of the EOS EF Mount with high quality and quick focusing optics geared towards the pro sports shooters cemented them in a position to eventually become the number 1 camera company. So no it’s not JUST about ergonomics. It’s about technical innovation, technical maturity, market research, targeting specific market segments where your expertise can be applied, and a company redefining the future of photography both in reality and mindshare. These are all things that Micro 4/3, Fuji, cellphone manufacturers, and Sony have been doing the last 5-15 years. They’re carving out a niche holes in the and then expanding towards the traditional needs of existing photographers. Micro 4/3 went the smaller lighter with “pro optics” route. Fuji went the new retro route. Sony wants to redefine pro hybrid photography without protectional limits to what they’ll release. Most people always have a smartphone on them which provides them with the age old the best camera is the one you have with you philosophy.

I believe that a lot of people left the CaNikon brands for a variety of reasons but largely due to the continued company attitudes towards future technologies to sum it up nicely. Many, maybe even most, that left did so without plans to return. You can call the existing Mirrorless systems “beta products” but it’s weird that you pick and choose what’s a beta based on what you personally like. CaNikon released products with all the “flaws” they complained about Mirrorless cameras having like shorter battery life, single card slots, etc. Sure they can release another body in 12-24 months but after waiting 5 years already for a correction it shows how out of touch they are with a segment on non-users of their products in a shrinking market. What they’ve given us are clearly an accessory (for now) to their DSLR (and that’s fine but they should admit it across the board). By all accounts Sony and arguably Micro 4/3 (if you look exclusively at lens lineup) are the most mature Mirrorless system in just about every metric of the term and yet a few people have placed the not even released systems as beyond them - even when professional reviewers don’t yet. They call the new systems alternatives and great options for people that own the companies lenses (and they are) but if you take all that out the equation they don’t present anything new or surpass what’s been on the market - those are facts. Even if you take Fuji (and I just spoke to a rep 3 or 4 days ago) - Sony is their target for technical ability/market share (and Panasonic for video).

The important take aways are that no matter what system we choose to use - most of us are switching between multiple system with relative ease these days so that’s why I say the menu and usuability argument is largely overblown by a handful of people with selective biases when convenient. I could probably learn relatively easily to use anything and live with anything - though I understand the idea behind having a preference too. All of this yearns towards an attitude of “get off my lawn.” If Panasonic/Nikon makes the most sense to you then you should buy those cameras and stick to them... no need to look at anything else that’ll likely confuse you no matter how long you own it.

P.S. drive more cars if you think everything is always in the same place. Jaguar has a gear selector switch, people hated the BMW I-drive for the longest, Tesla is all touchscreen this and that, and that’s not even counting how our English friends (and many of their former colonies) still drive on the wrong side of the street where everything is reversed from “muscle memory.” Also driving a modern car with multiple computers and all sorts of technology is rarely exactly like driving something from 20+ years ago. It just isn’t where the transmission often had 4 or 5 speeds max and the main options were interior color and music sound systems. Now you have GPS, tech packages, multiple sound systems, cold weather packages, all sorts of interior options, etc. Some cars don’t even have “key slots” any longer too.
 
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Vivek

Guest
The presumption that intuition is universal is upto debate....

I'm sure no-one is trying to create a non-logical or chaotic UI.
Unfortunately what is logical to some is utter crap to others.
IMO the challenge is to create an intuitive UI ... :lecture:
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Ergo all UIs are just fine ... :lecture:

:sleep:
I lean towards that they are all fine and all of them are more alike than not. Some are arranged slightly differently for sure and nomenclature/terminology can be largely unique based on the brand. All things considered though, most cameras largely operate the same way if we are being honest about it. Ergonomics May be slightly different and that’s a reality for sure but show me a person that owned, used, or lived with a camera for an extended period of time and didn’t figure out how to work the camera and I’ll show you someone that is largely hyperbolic in nature/action.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
My guess:
- The new hi-end Olympus will have a vastly improved UI.
- The new hi-end (and full frame) Panasonic will have vastly improved AF.

Some people don't care about UI much and some people don't care about AF, but to reach the broad masses, you need to be up there with the best in both areas. No, most people don't like to "adapt" to whatever or to have to figure things out. Why would they?
 

Knorp

Well-known member
Why would they ? Well, I can think of a couple of things, but like nature it's 'adapt or die' ...
 

biglouis

Well-known member
The great UI debate. All I can say is that when I picked up my GX8 it was like putting on a comfortable pair of old slippers as far as the UI and controls went compared to my Sony A7R, which I sold within a few months. Yes, the IQ may not have been as good but at least I didn't find myself missing shots while I tried to remember the rat hole down which I needed to disappear in the menu to find the option I wanted.

Not all UIs are equal. Some are more equal than others. And all UIs are only individually appreciated by the owner.

LouisB
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Why would they ? Well, I can think of a couple of things, but like nature it's 'adapt or die' ...
Because they need to increase their sales volume or at least defend the volume that they have. Have you ever done ocean racing? One important, unwritten rule is not to stray too far away from the main field. You'll either win or lose by doing so, but most avoid the risk and stay put going for a second or third position rather than risk it all on some weird idea that you know better than everyone else.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
Because they need to increase their sales volume or at least defend the volume that they have. Have you ever done ocean racing? One important, unwritten rule is not to stray too far away from the main field. You'll either win or lose by doing so, but most avoid the risk and stay put going for a second or third position rather than risk it all on some weird idea that you know better than everyone else.
Hi there Jørgen,

I believe you alright, but perhaps instead of 'adapt or die' I should have typed 'adapt or don't buy'. Sorry ... :eek:

Brgds.
 
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