Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

[iiiNelson]

Thanks Tre.

I need a ' camera ' not a toy

Best.

p.s. mind you, the Z6 is lighter than the G9/EMi MKii! And so is the Nikon Z kit zoom.
Unless I really go for f4/5 -? not much weight savings

I thought you wanted to go smaller...

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Thanks Tre.

I need a ' camera ' not a toy

Best.

p.s. mind you, the Z6 is lighter than the G9/EMi MKii! And so is the Nikon Z kit zoom.
Unless I really go for f4/5 -? not much weight savings

It's a pity that there hasn't been a real follow up to the GX8. Thos are the bodies that I'll be using until I either upgrade to a larger format (which may not happen), or that replacement arrives.

When it comes to compactness, m4/3 is still unbeatable. There's an abundance of very compact high quality lenses avaliable, like the Zuiko 8/1.8 Fisheye, Zuiko 12/2, PL 15/1.7, PL 25/1.4, PL 45/2.8 Macro and Zuiko 75/1.8 for primes, and Pana 7-14/4, PL 8-18/2.8-4, Pana 12-35/2.8, PL 12-60/2.8-4, Zuiko 12-100/4, Pana 35-100/2.8 and PL 50-200/2.8-4 for zooms. All are very high quality, none except the 12-100 and 50-200 is over 500g and several primes are just over 100g.

If you can live with the quirky ergonomics of Olympus, the E-M1 II is a much smaller camera than the G9. Lenses should be "mix and match" anyway.

 

[iiiNelson]

Thanks Tre.

I need a ' camera ' not a toy

Best.

p.s. mind you, the Z6 is lighter than the G9/EMi MKii! And so is the Nikon Z kit zoom.
Unless I really go for f4/5 -? not much weight savings

Also im sure the Nikon f/4 zooms are going to be comparable in size to your Fuji f/2.8 zooms. Not sure the Nikon Z will be the ticket to get smaller.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Also im sure the Nikon f/4 zooms are going to be comparable in size to your Fuji f/2.8 zooms. Not sure the Nikon Z will be the ticket to get smaller.

This is where the Fuji starts to become problematic:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#794.784,772.448,ha,t

The Nikon package is smaller and 200g lighter although offering twice as many megapixels plus a larger battery. The advantage of the crop sensor becomes questionable unless one needs long telephoto lenses, and even then, with the Nikkor PF lenses (and crop ability due to higher pixel count), Nikon can follow a long way.

 

[iiiNelson]

This is where the Fuji starts to become problematic:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#794.784,772.448,ha,t

The Nikon package is smaller and 200g lighter although offering twice as many megapixels plus a larger battery. The advantage of the crop sensor becomes questionable unless one needs long telephoto lenses, and even then, with the Nikkor PF lenses (and crop ability due to higher pixel count), Nikon can follow a long way.

Not an apples to apples comparison. The Fuji is a 24-85 equivalent but I’d wager ergonomics has a lot to do with perceived weight along with actual mass. The XH1 makes the red badge zooms across the board just feel right. Now when you add the adapter to the PF lenses then you’re back to a larger package again... then there’s cost and we are talking several orders of magnitude more for comparing the most advanced Fuji available (XT3) to the Z7. You can have 2 XT3’s and still have money left over if you wanted and he’s already invested in the system... or he can get a XE3 and be even smaller.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Not an apples to apples comparison. The Fuji is a 24-85 equivalent but I’d wager ergonomics has a lot to do with perceived weight along with actual mass. The XH1 makes the red badge zooms across the board just feel right. Now when you add the adapter to the PF lenses then you’re back to a larger package again... then there’s cost and we are talking several orders of magnitude more for comparing the most advanced Fuji available (XT3) to the Z7. You can have 2 XT3’s and still have money left over if you wanted and he’s already invested in the system... or he can get a XE3 and be even smaller.

"There ain't no such thing as an apples to apples comparison." :lecture:

However, if you want IBIS, a top LCD and a proper grip, the H1 is the only Fuji that compares. To make it more fair, the Z6 would be the right camera. Then the price and the number of pixels would be similar.

 

[iiiNelson]

"There ain't no such thing as an apples to apples comparison." :lecture:

However, if you want IBIS, a top LCD and a proper grip, the H1 is the only Fuji that compares. To make it more fair, the Z6 would be the right camera. Then the price and the number of pixels would be similar.

The XT3 is improved and he wanted smaller. Not sure when too LCD became a requirement.

 

[ptomsu]

This is where the Fuji starts to become problematic:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#794.784,772.448,ha,t

The Nikon package is smaller and 200g lighter although offering twice as many megapixels plus a larger battery. The advantage of the crop sensor becomes questionable unless one needs long telephoto lenses, and even then, with the Nikkor PF lenses (and crop ability due to higher pixel count), Nikon can follow a long way.

Indeed the Nikon Z7 (or Z6) is pretty much the same size as a Fuji X-H1 and having held both I must say I love the grip and ergonomics of both. But when it comes down to sensor size obviously the Nikon is the winner and will always be as we have the advantages of a larger sensor. And paired with IBIS that really works perfect in the Nikon I would not see any reason to go for the Fuji anymore.

There is always the argument about lenses and lens size of longer lenses and zooms, but for me this becomes negligible already - even compared to PRO lenses from Olympus and these are for m43.

So I would go the Z route especially as this new mount opens up a lot of possibilities for future lens designs - both in terms of IQ as well as speed and size.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Time to get this thread back on topic, isn't it?

L-rumors has linked to a number of interviews etc. about the S1/R, and I took time to watch all of them last night.

https://www.l-rumors.com/

I particularly liked this one (Three blind, white elephants and something...):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=7AWhPrfP97o

I also agree with his comment: "I am convinced the L-Mount Alliance is the most important announcement coming out of Photokina, and Panasonic's S1 twins the most important cameras." It's quite clear that Panasonic has used all its heavy expertise from developing professional equipment when developing these cameras. These will be premium grade tools for working professionals.

For my needs, there seem to be two winners in the FF mirrorless battle. Unsurprisingly, Nikon and Panasonic come out on top, unsurprisingly because those are the two brands I've mostly been using since I went digital some 13 years ago. The Nikon approach is great. I love the size, the big lens mount and the general look of the camera. However, after listening to the interviews, it's clear that many features of the Panasonics are not yet announced. I'm not in a hurry, so I'll wait for the final announcement.

Then there's this tiny little detail: the AF/MF switch. Most Panasonic cameras have it in more or less the same position, and I've become very fond of that switch (just like I was very fond of the AF mode switch on ancient Nikons). Electronics are good. Physical switches are gooder!

This is just the kind of detail that wins me over, not only because of the functionality itself, but also because it shows that actual photographers have been involved during the design process and because it shows that they have been listened to. Compare this to the MacBook stripe on the Canon and... no, I'm not going to adapt to technology. If technology doesn't adapt to me and my needs, I don't buy it.

 

[iiiNelson]

Time to get this thread back on topic, isn't it?

L-rumors has linked to a number of interviews etc. about the S1/R, and I took time to watch all of them last night.

https://www.l-rumors.com/

I particularly liked this one (Three blind, white elephants and something...):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=7AWhPrfP97o

I also agree with his comment: "I am convinced the L-Mount Alliance is the most important announcement coming out of Photokina, and Panasonic's S1 twins the most important cameras." It's quite clear that Panasonic has used all its heavy expertise from developing professional equipment when developing these cameras. These will be premium grade tools for working professionals.

For my needs, there seem to be two winners in the FF mirrorless battle. Unsurprisingly, Nikon and Panasonic come out on top, unsurprisingly because those are the two brands I've mostly been using since I went digital some 13 years ago. The Nikon approach is great. I love the size, the big lens mount and the general look of the camera. However, after listening to the interviews, it's clear that many features of the Panasonics are not yet announced. I'm not in a hurry, so I'll wait for the final announcement.

Then there's this tiny little detail: the AF/MF switch. Most Panasonic cameras have it in more or less the same position, and I've become very fond of that switch (just like I was very fond of the AF mode switch on ancient Nikons). Electronics are good. Physical switches are gooder!

This is just the kind of detail that wins me over, not only because of the functionality itself, but also because it shows that actual photographers have been involved during the design process and because it shows that they have been listened to. Compare this to the MacBook stripe on the Canon and... no, I'm not going to adapt to technology. If technology doesn't adapt to me and my needs, I don't buy it.

I partially agree with your assessment. Really the main factor in whether I’d add or go to the Panasonic is 100% dependent on whether it approaches and/or surpasses the performance of existing Sony bodies.

My direct tests of the Canon EOS R and the Nikon Z (which I never posted my impression here because I’m sure people would get defensive about my impressions that confirmed my initial reaction to the announcement - good camera for existing Nikon users but absolutely nothing ground breaking about it in any sense of the meaning) to what I assume was their target camera A7RII is that they come close to it in performance but don’t actually surpass it... much less generation 3 bodies. There are specs they offer that are better like having more AF points spread across a larger portion of the sensor and having a better EVF/rear screen but the AF isn’t as accurate (sorry it’s just not) and they’re missing key features for me that get used regularly like Eye AF in continuous focus. This can be patched in software perhaps. I also lack confidence in either Canon or Nikon (and have little trust towards either company) in their ability/desire to not neuter the camera down and committing to fully building out the system on Canon’s part within a timely manner.

Now Pansonic seems to have solved almost everything except my apprehension about staying with DFD/CDAF technology when it comes to video and lowlight focusing where I do a lot of my pro work either in darker wedding halls, dimly lit clubs/concerts, or focusing in lower light using off camera lighting. If they can solve my concerns, keep the rear screen as is because I want no parts of a f-isn’t “flippy” screen, price it and the lenses aggressively, AND Sony doesn’t make/announce a similarly sized FF Mirrorless body then Panasonic (and maybe Fuji with the XT3 and GFX S bodies) goes to the top of my list of cameras to try for a potential system change. Whenever I shoot the Sony though I tend to fall back “in love” with the IQ and the way I can customize it to make it work exactly like I like it to sans the smaller size when I don’t have the grip attached.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I think you can rest assured that Panasonic will not price these cameras aggressively. They never did that with their high end models in the past, and there's no reason why they should do it now.

As for Nikon and Canon, they have 24 and 49% of the total ILC market. They don't need to deliver cutting edge technology. They need to deliver strong solutions that work for the average photographer, which is what they have done.

If the average male was interested in cutting edge technology, he wouldn't drive a 2 ton SUV on flat, dry tarmac to the shopping mall, but he does, and his gourmet foods are steaks and burgers that he washes down with cheap beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8aPABF7nW4

And when it comes to females, they are far to smart to spend fortunes on the latest camera models

 

[iiiNelson]

I think you can rest assured that Panasonic will not price these cameras aggressively. They never did that with their high end models in the past, and there's no reason why they should do it now.

As for Nikon and Canon, they have 24 and 49% of the total ILC market. They don't need to deliver cutting edge technology. They need to deliver strong solutions that work for the average photographer, which is what they have done.

If the average male was interested in cutting edge technology, he wouldn't drive a 2 ton SUV on flat, dry tarmac to the shopping mall, but he does, and his gourmet food are steaks and burgers that he washes down with cheap beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8aPABF7nW4

And when it comes to females, they are far to smart to spend fortunes on the latest camera models

Fortune is relative and I prefer not to generalize down to ignorant themes amongst the sexes or their spending habits. I actually don’t care what market share Canon or Nikon have - what I do care about is the beat performing product... they don’t make it IMO or by most metrics. It’s not JUST about cutting edge technology but rather about smart technology that’s smartly integrated into advancing an otherwise dying market... sorry I’m not going to argue about what I tested and know for myself coming from real world usage of Sony cameras and seeing the hands-on limitations with my own eyes. It’s not to say the cameras are bad but they aren’t as good.

Panasonic SHOULD price aggressively or they’ll likely not capture a huge share of a competitive market. If they price it unrealistically (for instance the S1 not coming in near or around the $2k mark or the S1R costing much more than $2500-3500 then they won’t achieve much more than potential critical success.. and that’s fine if they only want to be a niche player. If they want to capture a significant portion of the market then they’ll need to undercut the big 3 players.

 

[ptomsu]

Well, IMHO we are still not back to topic of the thread, instead discussing shopping, eating , etc. behaviours of different genders :ROTFL:

Anyway my decision for a FF mirrorless is between the Nikon Z system and the Panasonic S-system (aka L-mount). For me it became meanwhile a lot more important how a camera feels in MY hands and how easy I can operate it for my style of photography and videography.

When I tried the Z7 I was blown away by how well it fits my desires and needs and these desires have maybe only 5% to do with eye AF or similar features. Instead I found the Z7 super accurate and fast focusing on faces even in very dim light and also tracking these faces even if the contact of the system was interrupted for some moments (e.g. a person walking through between me and the object). In short I found the Z7 stunning with what it offers in terms of AF - single, tracking or name the mode you want.

Another fact I should mention are the new S lenses and their size, build quality, responsiveness etc. I have seen so many reviews and youtube videos complaining about the S lenses feeling cheap and plastic - man I do not know what these folks are smoking. Anyway for me the S lens quality including IQ is top!

WRT to Panasonic and the L-mount, in principal I have some (high) hopes that they will deliver and come out with a camera that is on par with the Z7 or even tops it and the same is true for lenses. Having said that - even if the L-mount is now open and Leica, Panasonic and Sigma will bring lenses I have my doubts how well these will perform and feel (for me - and this is the most important thing). I have the fear it will take longer for Panasonic to bring a 80-400 zoom comparable to the existing Nikon 80-400 and I am pretty confident that Nikon will be quicker and not disappoint with the quality of that lens. Panasonic and also Sigma I am not so sure and only time will tell, but that is a very high factor of uncertainty for me and thus I am very sceptical. Let alone Sigma - I know they build excellent lenses in their ART series, but I do not like their lens designs, size and haptics, so again my hope to get something reasonable out of that for me is pretty limited. Maybe that is only me but this it is.

Nevertheless I will wait till next May 2019 when the Panasonic L-mount things become available and we maybe see where their future lens development will go. Forget about Leica because they mange to bring optically excellent lenses but at crazy prizes and also far away from what I would like to see.

WRT Sony I have given up hope that the bring a reasonably sized camera in the foreseeable future, as they seem to happily stick with too bulky lenses (and they have a lot of these in the G-master series) and too small bodies where I break my fingers before I can start operating this gear - sorry Sony fanboys but that is the truth for me ( and I am sure also for many other folks out there). Or why do you all think I have not finally bought some Sony mirrorless gear over the past years?

 

[Vivek]

Or why do you all think I have not finally bought some Sony mirrorless gear over the past years?

Not a fanboi and I cannot second guess your choices and reasons.

Hope your broken fingers healed! If that had happened to me I would have sued them!

 

[iiiNelson]

Well, IMHO we are still not back to topic of the thread, instead discussing shopping, eating , etc. behaviours of different genders :ROTFL:

Anyway my decision for a FF mirrorless is between the Nikon Z system and the Panasonic S-system (aka L-mount). For me it became meanwhile a lot more important how a camera feels in MY hands and how easy I can operate it for my style of photography and videography.

When I tried the Z7 I was blown away by how well it fits my desires and needs and these desires have maybe only 5% to do with eye AF or similar features. Instead I found the Z7 super accurate and fast focusing on faces even in very dim light and also tracking these faces even if the contact of the system was interrupted for some moments (e.g. a person walking through between me and the object). In short I found the Z7 stunning with what it offers in terms of AF - single, tracking or name the mode you want.

Another fact I should mention are the new S lenses and their size, build quality, responsiveness etc. I have seen so many reviews and youtube videos complaining about the S lenses feeling cheap and plastic - man I do not know what these folks are smoking. Anyway for me the S lens quality including IQ is top!

WRT to Panasonic and the L-mount, in principal I have some (high) hopes that they will deliver and come out with a camera that is on par with the Z7 or even tops it and the same is true for lenses. Having said that - even if the L-mount is now open and Leica, Panasonic and Sigma will bring lenses I have my doubts how well these will perform and feel (for me - and this is the most important thing). I have the fear it will take longer for Panasonic to bring a 80-400 zoom comparable to the existing Nikon 80-400 and I am pretty confident that Nikon will be quicker and not disappoint with the quality of that lens. Panasonic and also Sigma I am not so sure and only time will tell, but that is a very high factor of uncertainty for me and thus I am very sceptical. Let alone Sigma - I know they build excellent lenses in their ART series, but I do not like their lens designs, size and haptics, so again my hope to get something reasonable out of that for me is pretty limited. Maybe that is only me but this it is.

Nevertheless I will wait till next May 2019 when the Panasonic L-mount things become available and we maybe see where their future lens development will go. Forget about Leica because they mange to bring optically excellent lenses but at crazy prizes and also far away from what I would like to see.

WRT Sony I have given up hope that the bring a reasonably sized camera in the foreseeable future, as they seem to happily stick with too bulky lenses (and they have a lot of these in the G-master series) and too small bodies where I break my fingers before I can start operating this gear - sorry Sony fanboys but that is the truth for me ( and I am sure also for many other folks out there). Or why do you all think I have not finally bought some Sony mirrorless gear over the past years?

I can understand if you don’t find Sony cameras comfortable (without a grip) but the lenses are great as are Panasonic and Sigma lenses. Comfort is extremely subjective and just being larger doesn’t guarantee it will be a more comfortable camera (I’m looking at the EOS R). I have no reservation personally about Panasonic’s ability to build lenses - every premium lens of their’s that I’ve used has been great be it a macro lens, a normal lens, a wide zoom, or a telephoto lens... I see absolutely no reason why the quality of lens design will change for the worse with their premium professional flagship system. My only concern really is how well will AF work in lowlight with a DFD/CDAF based system. By all accounts and objective metrics the G9 has one of the most accurate and fastest focusing systems for still photos in good light... I’m not sure of how well it does in challenging light. None of the Panasonic’s have great video AF compared to say Canon, Sony, or the Fuji XT3. If they can fix this the. This will solve my biggest concerns. Another smaller concern that came up in a new hands on video is whether some features may be locked down to only being able to be used with the XQD which may reduce the ability to have a dual card system across the board UNLESS the SD slot is future upgradeable/compatible to SD Express cards.

When it comes to tracking and quickly acquiring focus - that’s a big advantage that I find Sony has over the Nikon Z... especially in mixed and lower light where I typically use cameras. That’s not to say the Nikon is bad but rather to say the Sony in reality is still better than it today. It’s not a matter of being a “fanboy” but a matter of being honest and objective about the raw performance and repeatable accuracy. The Sony just has a higher hit rate in mixed and lower light. Either is fine during daytime and/or good light IMO. It’s not me knocking the Nikon (as I believe that as a camera it’s fine as is for most things) but comparatively today you’re comparing a camera that has 2 native lenses to a camera with over 80 native lens options from a variety of manufacturers. Yes a person can adapt newer Nikon F lenses and get AF... just like a person can adapt both newer A mount or older Minolta/Sony screw mount lenses and receive near native AF performance on the SSM lenses... it’s sort of a moot point and one that people have repeatedly said over the years isn’t a viable option for filling lens holes. Not knocking anyone that does this because I have with great successes but I don’t find it funny that some people find it to be a revelation and great option now.

 

[ptomsu]

When it comes to tracking and quickly acquiring focus - that’s a big advantage that I find Sony has over the Nikon Z... especially in mixed and lower light where I typically use cameras. That’s not to say the Nikon is bad but rather to say the Sony in reality is still better than it today. It’s not a matter of being a “fanboy” but a matter of being honest and objective about the raw performance and repeatable accuracy. The Sony just has a higher hit rate in mixed and lower light. Either is fine during daytime and/or good light IMO. It’s not me knocking the Nikon (as I believe that as a camera it’s fine as is for most things) but comparatively today you’re comparing a camera that has 2 native lenses to a camera with over 80 native lens options from a variety of manufacturers. Yes a person can adapt newer Nikon F lenses and get AF... just like a person can adapt both newer A mount or older Minolta/Sony screw mount lenses and receive near native AF performance on the SSM lenses... it’s sort of a moot point and one that people have repeatedly said over the years isn’t a viable option for filling lens holes. Not knocking anyone that does this because I have with great successes but I don’t find it funny that some people find it to be a revelation and great option now.

First it may be that Sony has a bit faster focus etc. but hey I could not care less if the camera that offers this does not speak to me, resonate with me or call it however you want. I am not saying Sony is bad by all means, but I came to a point in life where I do not care any longer about the opinions of others too much when I find a product is right for me or better than another.

I mind you I currently have NO Nikkor AF F-mount lenses so I really can start from the scratch. But I could have done this since the last 3 years with Sony and did not do so because every time I tried a Sony camera I did not feel a connection - means I did not really like to hold and operate it. I do not need to earn any living from photography and/or videography, so I am once in my life in the wonderful situation to choose what I really want and prefer. I have certain criteria for different functionality - say AF - and whenever these criteria are met it is good enough for me, with the Z7 being More than good enough. Same is true for the EVF and other parts and functionalities and features of this camera, so actually I have found my ideal tool. Mind you also that I left Nikon because I could no longer get friends with their DSLR FF philosophy but this changed significantly since the recent introduction of the Z-mount.

WRT lenses - the adapters for A-mount lenses work not by far anywhere close as the FTZ-adapter and latest AF-F-mount lenses. For me specifically I am talking about the 80-400 that works like a breeze with the Z7, so actually I feel very comfortable to use that combination till a native 80-400 S lens is introduced. The other lenses I am looking for I could get within the next year or so - 4/14-35, 1.8/20, 2.8/70-200 and 1.2/50. The only thing that would be missing from my wish list is a 60 or 105 macro but I am sure that will come as well.

What else do I miss? Nothing!

Now sure the L-mount consortium could bring a serious alternative but I have my doubts about that working out as nicely as an open standard also bears a number of difficulties and obstacles compared to a closed standard. For example an open standard has a clear specification that binds all parties, so it is pretty difficult to change some. Nikon's closed Z-mount allows the to change many things without any problem - the beauty of a closed standard. Do I need the multiple choices such an open standard introduces? Maybe not - again something I learned during my life.

But I am open and will watch all this further during the next 6-9 month before I make a final decision.

 

[iiiNelson]

First it may be that Sony has a bit faster focus etc. but hey I could not care less if the camera that offers this does not speak to me, resonate with me or call it however you want. I am not saying Sony is bad by all means, but I came to a point in life where I do not care any longer about the opinions of others too much when I find a product is right for me or better than another.

I mind you I currently have NO Nikkor AF F-mount lenses so I really can start from the scratch. But I could have done this since the last 3 years with Sony and did not do so because every time I tried a Sony camera I did not feel a connection - means I did not really like to hold and operate it. I do not need to earn any living from photography and/or videography, so I am once in my life in the wonderful situation to choose what I really want and prefer. I have certain criteria for different functionality - say AF - and whenever these criteria are met it is good enough for me, with the Z7 being More than good enough. Same is true for the EVF and other parts and functionalities and features of this camera, so actually I have found my ideal tool. Mind you also that I left Nikon because I could no longer get friends with their DSLR FF philosophy but this changed significantly since the recent introduction of the Z-mount.

WRT lenses - the adapters for A-mount lenses work not by far anywhere close as the FTZ-adapter and latest AF-F-mount lenses. For me specifically I am talking about the 80-400 that works like a breeze with the Z7, so actually I feel very comfortable to use that combination till a native 80-400 S lens is introduced. The other lenses I am looking for I could get within the next year or so - 4/14-35, 1.8/20, 2.8/70-200 and 1.2/50. The only thing that would be missing from my wish list is a 60 or 105 macro but I am sure that will come as well.

What else do I miss? Nothing!

Now sure the L-mount consortium could bring a serious alternative but I have my doubts about that working out as nicely as an open standard also bears a number of difficulties and obstacles compared to a closed standard. For example an open standard has a clear specification that binds all parties, so it is pretty difficult to change some. Nikon's closed Z-mount allows the to change many things without any problem - the beauty of a closed standard. Do I need the multiple choices such an open standard introduces? Maybe not - again something I learned during my life.

But I am open and will watch all this further during the next 6-9 month before I make a final decision.

Have YOU used the A-mount lenses with a generation 2 or newer body? Generation 1 bodies were limited by the Autofocus speed of the camera A7RII or later are not. This is reality and not internet hearsay.

Youre free to huy whatever ever you want - your choice and I have no stake in what you buy. I just see so much falsehood, erroneous information, and hypocrisy being spoken that becomes “facts” after enough people say so. That part irritates me but whatever. I’m up for talking about the Panasonic further. The Nikon is fine but not as good by any objective metric - that’s the point and I’m not trying to wait until late 2020 to buy into an inferior system if starting from scratch. Larger lens mount... yeah it sounds great in theory but in reality no one was saying anything about the smaller Leica M mount needing a larger mount for the Noctilux lenses... I don’t know why none of these sorts of lenses are suddenly impossible on an E-mount that’s larger.

...and that’s the crux of it all. People have abandoned reality and logic because their brand of choice finally came (late) to the party. I think the L-Mount consortium can legitimately add something exciting to Mirrorless offerings. I think what Fuji is doing is amazing and having C1Pro support is huge. Sony is doing what they’ve done the last 5 years and pushing the direction of the market/sensor tech. Even Canon (though I don’t love the EOS R body) is pushing out groundbreaking lenses in the system with the new 50, improved 24-105, and the 28-70.

 

[pegelli]

WRT lenses - the adapters for A-mount lenses work not by far anywhere close as the FTZ-adapter and latest AF-F-mount lenses.

Any sources for this?

I just think it's far from the truth or a very old FUD story. The ii and iii series cams (and the A9) + LA-EA3 adapter work as good as or better (with full functionality) with most Sony SSM A-mount lenses, incl. the much praised Eye AF that Nikon didn't implement.

No need to like Sony cameras if you don't, but it doesn't help to reinforce your opinion by spreading "fake news", your opinion by itself without that is valuable enough.

 

[iiiNelson]

Any sources for this?

I just think it's far from the truth or a very old FUD story. The ii and iii series cams (and the A9) + LA-EA3 adapter work as good as or better (with full functionality) with most Sony SSM A-mount lenses, incl. the much praised Eye AF that Nikon didn't implement.

No need to like Sony cameras if you don't, but it doesn't help to reinforce your opinion by spreading "fake news", your opinion by itself without that is valuable enough.

My point exactly... Reviewers compared Canon EF and Nikon F AF performance on Sony bodies to performance on OEM mirrorless bodies. No surprise they worked better than a reverse engineered solution. Now comparing native Sony/Minolta lenses on a newer Sony Mirrorless camera will reveal the performance is similar or better than using it on the latest A99II body... which in turn is to say they are more or less as effective a solution with the added benefit that you can actually provide AF to old screw drive lenses along with SSM lenses with appropriate adapters (though you lose the bulk of the sensor AF points with the Screw Drive lenses).

 

[ptomsu]

Well - and we are again miles away from the original topic of this thread :banghead:

Maybe if it helps - I reiterate again - Sony make the greatest and best cameras and lenses - second to none!

And now we hopefully can continue with the real discussion